Shaggydog Stark Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 MTE. If they couldn't wait even a little bit, they should have given more thought to where in Winterfell they were screwing. Kids play in abandoned buildings all the time and any guard or servant could have walked in on them if he heard/thought he heard noise coming from the tower. They would probably be safer having sex in Cersei's chambers with windows shut and the door locked after she told the servants that she was feeling ill and was not to be disturbed or even the crypts. But no, out of all places they pick that tower. And later have sex in the King's bed while the King is sleeping not two steps from them. Just how bloody stupid can you be?They certainly are not the smartest cookies in the books. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raksha the Demon Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Jaime gets a lot of criticism for pushing Bran out the window. When you ask someone if they would have done the same, most would say not. But then, would you have been caught banging your sis, the King's wife, in an abandoned old tower? Most would say not.It's easy to say Ned is a better character or so, because he would never have [tried to] killed a little boy. But he would never have been involved in a scandal such as banging sister in the first place. Obviously, one bad deed has led to another. Perhaps Jaime did not actually want to hurt Bran, but consider his lover and sister would have been killed, alongside him, if he had not. It was a choice between a boy you did not know, and the life of the person who is most precious in the world to you.So the question is, if you were literally caught banging your sis, the King's wife, by a boy, would you have protected yourself and her, or done the honorable thing and got beheaded?And also, do you blame Jaime for his choice?There's a lot of people think he's such a bad guy. But the only flaw I see in him is incest (which was not so uncommon in eras such as that, anyway). The other things (pushing Bran, breaking his oath in the Kingsguard) were just unfortunate events, not his fault - damned if you do and damned if you don't. I don't blame him for having to make tough decisions that no one would want to make.Sorry, when you are knowingly committing an act that is considered "abomination" in your culture, it is morally wrong to try to kill an innocent person when they stumble upon you committing that act. At the time Jaime grabbed Bran, there are no indications that Jaime cared about his three children, he said later that they were just 'squirts of seed' or something like that. Jaime tried to murder Bran because Cersei was scared their secret would be revealed, not because he feared for the children's lives (Cersei probably did).Cersei and Jaime should have had an emergency plan well in place in case someone did discover them having sex. What would Jaime have done if Joffrey had liked to climb, or had followed his mother to a secret tryst with Uncle Jaime one day? I could just see Jaime using that knowledge to blackmail them both. They could have subdued Bran, tied him up and gagged him and left him in the room, then taken their children and rode out of Winterfell with some loyal Lannister guards; which they should always have had near the kids. And they should have kept some coin, lots of it, with them, in case they had to make a quick escape. I just think that Cersei and Jaime, with typical Lannister arrogance, thought their affair would never be discovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soob Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Considering that it's, you know, Jamie, maybe his plan was to kill whoever caught them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 If I knew what all the future Bran chapters were going to be like I would have made sure he died when I pushed him out of that window. Headfirst should have done it, no amount of wolf howling would save him then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Seal Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 If I were Jaime, then I'd be stupid and yes I would've pushed him.From an exterior point of view, it was a completely idiotic act, as it had the exact opposite effect that was originally intended : it reinforced the Starks' suspicions towards the Lannisters. Bran is a gullible kid, his POV chapter made it clear that he had no idea what he was seeing and Jaime and Cersei could've just said they were having some brother/sister fun and he wouldn't have thought about it twice.Seriously, how sex craved must they be that they can't wait til it's night or something ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Lannister Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Depends if I had prior knowledge of how some of his later chapters would turn out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brashcandy Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Absolutely no excuse for Jaime pushing Bran from the window; and some people are stating that it was an impulsive act but how so? I thought he had plenty time to think about what he would do and he still chose the most cowardly, morally reprehensible act in the world to ensure that their incest remained a secret. This is why I think Martin has to be setting him up for a future confrontation with Bran where he finally repents what he did, and perhaps dies in saving the boy's life like he should have done before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
headtrip_honey Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 It's not like the only choice was push Bran or get caught.As Cersei said, he was just a boy who probably didn't even understand what he saw. (In the book, remember, it's not full-on banging...I think it was more at the fondling stage)They could have frightened him into silence, or said any number of things to explain what they were doing.And I DON'T think Jaime deliberated over Bran's life vs. the life of Cersei and all their children. I think he did what Jaime does - act impulsively, with little thought to anything but the immediate result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Regent Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 No I would not have... but then again I would not have been having sex with my sister either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Is this a trick question?You are asking whether I would have murdered a child, for seeing me do something wrong?Anyone who answers yes to that question, and actually acts upon their answer, would be in line for capital punishment in any state that still carries the death penalty.That's murdering a child because they were a witness to your crime. Only the most despicable and reviled of criminals fall into that category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bourne Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 For the record, I'm not arguing that killing Bran is the right thing to do morally, just that it's the less wrong of the two options. Either way Jaime has to do something wrong. I think it's less morally reprehensible to be directly responsible for the death of one than indirectly responsible for the death of thousands. I don't think it's honorable to condemn all those people to death just because you want to keep your hands clean.And you can't use that argument Jaime throwing Bran out the window would also start a war. Jaime has the choice between killing Bran or letting him live. He chose to kill him, but ended up failing in that. The fact that Bran survives the fall was not part of his equation. You can't know that he will survive. If he had died like Jaime intended it simply looks like he fell from a building. Tragic accident. No war.It doesn't matter what effect we know the actions had looking back. It only matters what Jaime knows at the time. And he didn't know Bran would survive.And even Bran surviving didn't cause the war. It was Joffrey sending the assassin that sparked the Stark's investigation. You can't hold Jaime and Cersei responsible for the actions of their son (in that case anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartsansa Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 And you can't use that argument Jaime throwing Bran out the window would also start a war. Jaime has the choice between killing Bran or letting him live. He chose to kill him, but ended up failing in that. The fact that Bran survives the fall was not part of his equation. You can't know that he will survive. If he had died like Jaime intended it simply looks like he fell from a building. Tragic accident. No war.I haven't seen any indication that Jaime, in that split second of decision or at any point following, was calculating how many lives he could save one way or the other. It was an entirely selfish and impulsive act and had nothing to do with any kind of grand big picture, saving lives or whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyDogIsNamedDanerys Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 If I was Jaime, I would have pushed Bran.If I was myself, I would not have.I'm not Jaime... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in the South Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Can you guys stop saying "then again i don't think I would be having sex with my sister"? I don't think anyone here would have sex with their sister. The question isn't about Jaime's relationship vs your own, it's about his reaction.And to anwser the question, yes, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeheartsansa Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 And to answer the question, yes, of course.Still, no. Threatening him, ignoring him, trying to reason with him, blackmail him, explain to him.. anything would have been preferable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bourne Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I haven't seen any indication that Jaime, in that split second of decision or at any point following, was calculating how many lives he could save one way or the other. It was an entirely selfish and impulsive act and had nothing to do with any kind of grand big picture, saving lives or whatnot.Two things.First, the question was if I would have thrown him out the window. And for the above reasons, putting myself in Jaime's shoes I would have. I do not know if Jaime's motivations were exactly the same as mine. And again, I'm not arguing that throwing Bran out a window is morally acceptable. I just think that you're already in a lose-lose situation at that point. So take the smaller loss.Secondly, what was Jaime's motivation for trying to kill Bran? To keep their secret safe. Why do they need to keep that secret safe? So that Jaime, Cersei and their children aren't killed. I don't know if Jaime was pondering the entire outcome of his secret being revealed in that moment (I kinda doubt it), but I guarantee that in the 15 years Cersei has been married to Robert he has thought about the consequences in total. He knows that their secret coming out is a death warrant for not only himself and his family, but in all likelihood thousands of others. It was selfish of them to continue their relationship knowing that, yes.I wouldn't say that Jaime was in the tower thinking "I have to choose between killing this boy or letting thousands die." But on some level Jaime knew that the revelation of his secret=many deaths.He threw Bran out the window to keep his secret safe. But he wanted his secret safe to save lives (and yes, not the least of those was his own). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The King in the South Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Still, no. Threatening him, ignoring him, trying to reason with him, blackmail him, explain to him.. anything would have been preferable.Thats such a huge risk. In medieval times the chances of that working are 1 in a million. I don't think Jaime wanted to kill Bran, but he didn't have many options Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medieval Housefly Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I actually don't know what I'd do. Jamie knew that if the truth was uncovered about them they would be killed. Jamie, Cersei, Tommen, Joffery, and Myrcella. Who's to say that they would be able to keep Bran quiet? I wouldn't want to take that risk. I love my husband and child and would go to extreme lengths to keep them safe, more than myself. If it came to killing a child to save my family I might, but to save just myself never. This doesn't make it okay, but you can also use the logic that it was killing one to save five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaggydog Stark Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I wouldn't say that Jaime was in the tower thinking "I have to choose between killing this boy or letting thousands die." But on some level Jaime knew that the revelation of his secret=many deaths.He threw Bran out the window to keep his secret safe. But he wanted his secret safe to save lives (and yes, not the least of those was his own).He did not throw Bran out the window because he wanted to save lives. He did it to save himself and Cersei. Just them and no one else. What he should have done was not kill in order to save lives, as you suggest...which just doesn't make sense to me because the act of killing negates the logic of saving lives.He should have taken Cersei and his kids and fled, leave Westeros entirely and start a new life somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyvyathan Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 As Varys notes, Robert has made himself very good at not seeing what was in front of him. However, even he couldn't have failed to notice, on some level, the yellow hair and green eyes of all three children, the fact that the children do not resemble him even remotely, the fact that hisConsidering that Robert has been failing to notice the peculiarity of his blond haired offsprings for 15+ years do you really think that the testimony of a 7 year old boy is going to change that?Another way to see it - would be to say that Robert has developed a skill of "not seeing what was in front of him", and after 15 years of practice he's pretty good at it I think :DYou may say mayhaps but it was no bygone certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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