Shae's Lies.

[Fearsome Fred]

SHAE’S LIES

It is routinely said that Shae’s testimony is completely fabricated. This, however, is unclear. This conclusion is reached mainly by assuming that if something is not mentioned in Tyrion’s POV chapters, it never happened. It is also reached by making no allowance for the possibility of honest confusion on Shae’s part.

Note, I am completely on the side of those who say that if Shae had lied against Tyrion, it would have been understandable and excusable given the circumstances of her position (she was under the power of Cersei and Tywin Lannister). I also agree with the argument that Shae's lies did NOT cause Tyrion to be convicted, nor was their any reason to believe that this would happen.

However, this post is intended to play devil's advocate against the idea that Shae lied at all. My position is not necessarily that this is the most LIKELY explanation for her testimony. I merely claim that if we place the burden of proof on those who would convict Shae of perjury, they will not be able to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

“They plotted it together. The Imp and Sansa plotted it after the Young Wolf died.”

False, but that does not make it a lie. Shae almost certainly believes these things to be true, as does everyone else in KL, including Pod. Note that she does not say she OVERHEARD them plotting together. But her information is at least partially correct. Both the Imp and Sansa want Joffrey dead, and, in fact, the Imp TRIED to plot Joffrey’s death with Sansa, but Sansa distrusted him and therefore ignored him.

“Sansa wanted revenge for her brother and Tyrion meant to have the throne.”

Both 100% true.

“He was going to kill his sister next, then his lord father, so he could be Hand for Prince Tommen. But after a year or so, before Tommen got too old, he would have killed him too, so as to take the crown for his own head.”

Sounds about right to me. I think that’s exactly what Tyrion would have done: Joffrey, then Cersei, then Tywin. My only quibble is that I think he would have hesitated a bit longer with Tommon – but he certainly would have killed him rather than surrender power. One thing is certain: Tyrion DOES want to control the throne; and these people DO stand in his way.

Tyrion himself prefers to avoid consciously admitting these things. He prefers to tell himself he would never harm kin, which we now KNOW is NOT TRUE. His method of killing his father was to maneuver himself into position for the kill, and then kill, without ever acknowledging to himself that that was his intent all along. But how else could he have walked away from their interview?

It is not clear how Shae knows this, though. She does not claim Tyrion told her these things directly. But Oberyn then asks: “How could you know all this?” Her answers are very vague.

But since his lust for Shae and his lust for power are intimately connected in his mind, he may have let slip more than he knows in his moments of passion. I have no reason to doubt that Shae believes it.

“I overheard some, m’lord.”

This is what would cause a modern lawyer to jump up and shout, “Objection! Hearsay!” Then the prosecutor would have to establish that the words came from a relevant source (such as Sansa or Tyrion). Otherwise the words would be stricken. But repeating hearsay is not the same as lying.

I’m sure she overheard lots of things. The castle is full of gossip, and ALL of it says that Sansa and the Imp murdered Joffrey. Is that all she means? It is not clear at all. She clearly does not have in mind things she overheard from Sansa, because she addresses that in the next sentence in a way that implies it was not covered in the first.

She may even have heard things from Varys, who has made clear all along that he suspects Tyrion is plotting against Joffrey (and it is by no means clear that Varys is wrong).

But she COULD have in mind things she overheard from Tyrion, because Tyrion DOES say things that could easily be taken that way. We readers have seen him say to Sansa, “I think Joffrey’s earned himself a dagger, wouldn’t you say.”

In any event, unless she makes clear what she means, we cannot say she is lying.

“[…] and m’lady let things slip too.”

Well, Sansa DID let things slip. For one, she was trembling the morning of the Wedding (because she was indeed plotting something) and tries to cover this up with a clumsy lie, saying the water was cold, when it was not. Shae may have noticed this. Shae may have noticed many things, because we know Shae is very observant, and we also know that Sansa was indeed plotting something. When, later that morning, Sansa made her escape after Joffrey’s murder, Shae would naturally draw a connection to any “clues” she may have noticed in the past.

Since nobody asks Shae what exactly Sansa “let slip”, it cannot be said that she is lying. We need more information. We need to know what she means.

“But most I had from his own lips.”

Makes sense. We can be reasonably certain that Shae is mistaken about Sansa and Tyrion plotting together. So it makes more sense that most of her evidence would come from Tyrion directly, since it is at least arguable that Tyrion WAS in fact plotting Joffrey’s death, and is more likely than Shae to allow hints of this to slip in front of Shae. Certainly, if Varys reached the conclusion that Tyrion was plotting against Joffrey.

“I was not only Sansa’s maid. I was his whore, all the time I was here at Kings Landing.”

100% true.

“On the morning of the wedding, he dragged me down to where they keep the dragon skulls and f***ed me there with the monsters all around.”

Yes, they did have sex in the dragon room on the morning of the wedding. You may quibble that he did not “drag” her there. But she was certainly taken there on his orders, and it is quibbling (but true) to say he did not literally do the dragging himself.

After sex, she tries to convince him to make other arrangements, such as drugging Sansa so they can have sex in their bedroom. This is consistent with her testimony that she dislikes the dragon room.

“And when I cried, he said I ought to be more grateful, […]”

We know that, in the past, Tyrion has ignored Shae’s cries of pain during sex, preferring the fantasy that they are cries of ecstasy. It is also possible that influence of the dragon-skulls may have made him rather more psycho than normal.

“[…] that it was not every girl who got to be the king’s whore. That’s when he told me how he meant to be king. He said that poor boy Joffrey would never know his bride the way that he was knowing me.”

We actually don’t know what was said during sex, because the corresponding Tyrion chapter totally skips that part. But this DOES sound like the sort of thing Tyrion might say. Tyrion hates Joff and is constantly saying nasty things about him. Shae’s memory of what exactly was said is probably jumbled, but there is no reason to believe it is actually dishonest.

Note, this is the only thing that Shae explicitly says Tyrion told her directly.

She started sobbing then.

Are the tears feigned? Tyrion fans like to assume so, but it is an assumption.

“I never meant to be a whore, m’lords.”

Almost certainly true, … at least if GRRM intends the Westerosi sex industry to be remotely “realistic”. But if GRRM intends Westeros to be a whoremonger’s fantasy land (where all whores are eager and willing, except where they are bitches deserving of death) then it is almost certainly false.

It is also consistent with everything Shae has told Tyrion. She says she left home because she did NOT want to become her father’s whore. She is constantly telling him, in countless ways, that she aspires to be more than a mere whore.

“I was to be married. A squire he was, and a good brave boy, gentle born.”

There is no evidence that this is a lie. A squire is a “knight in training”, often found in the service of a knight, and Shae was taken from a knight’s tent. If Tyrion meant to keep Shae, it is more than possible that someone else had the same idea, and (whether he told the truth or not) may well have promised his “kept woman” a bit more than Tyrion did in terms of marriage prospects. Whoever had her was unwilling to give her up, even when the Lannister name was mentioned, and had to be dissuaded with Bronn’s knife to his throat. That implies a bond a bit deeper than a one-night stand with a just-hired whore who is servicing an entire army.

I’ve seen it argued that this is a lie because Bronn claims he took her from a knight. The first problem with this is that if Bronn did not even bother to learn the fellow’s name, he can hardly be expected to know his precise rank. The second problem is that Bronn may have fought, not with her client/fiancee, but with her client-fiancee's’employer (one would expect a knight and his squire to share a tent).

“But the Imp saw me at the battle of the Green Fork …”

True. She fails to mention she had sex with him immediately after he saw her, but that does not make the statement false.

“[…] and put the boy I meant to marry in the front rank of the van, […]”

Immediately after sex with Shae, Tyrion left her apparently asleep, and goes around the back of the tent to piss, where he meets Bronn. We later learn that Shae woke up while Tyrion was gone. At the back of the tent, Bronn and Tyrion have a conversation where they talk about Shae’s man being Tyrion’s enemy, about Tyrion not wanting this “enemy” beside him in the battle, and something about someone being “put in the van”. If Shae, listening through the tent flaps, overheard some words but not others, she could easily reach the above conclusion.

Later, at King’s Landing, Shae hears Tyrion say that he is terrified of his enemies and therefore kills them all, and it is clear he SPECIFICALLY has in mind those who come between him and Shae. This to Shae would be further confirmation of what she suspected earlier.

“[…] and after he was killed […]”

Tyrion’s account of the Battle of Green Fork confirms that a number of lesser knights fought in the van, that they formed the “front rank”, and that many of them died.

[…] after he was killed he sent his wildlings to bring me to his tent. Shagga, the big one, and Timmet with the burned eye.

It will be argued that this is a lie, because (1) Bronn seized her, not Shagga & Timmet; and (2) this occurred before, not after, the Greenfork battle.

To which I can make several observations:

#1 These details, even if false, are not material to Tyrion’s guilt. Shae, who we all know hopes for a decent marriage, has just been forced to publicly admit to being a whore, an admission doomed to dash such hopes. She does not want to admit, before a crowd of highborn lords and ladies, that she betrayed her fiancee while he still lived. Meanwhile, the fundamental fact, that she was seized by force of arms, remains true.

#2 It is perfectly possible that Tyrion sent men to fetch her twice. He had left her with Pod, with instructions to take her “home” if the battle went poorly. Pod may well have done so, when Tyrion failed to return from the battle that night (he went straight from the battlefield to his father’s tent). Tyrion then shows up next morning, with his arm in a sling, having been treated by his father’s Maesters, and sends for her again, perhaps this time sending Shagga & Timmet.

#3 We don’t know if others accompanied Bronn when he seized Shae. He would be foolish to go without backup. It is quite possible that other’s were grabbing Shae while Bronn had his dirk to the knight/squire’s throat.

#4 It is also possible that Shae was instructed not to mention the new “Sir Bronn”, who has now won Tywin’s favor.

#5. These events occurred over a year prior to Shae’s testimony, and certain details may have become mixed up in Shae’s mind to some extent. We see, on a daily basis, how events become mixed up in the minds of fans if they do not check the text.

“He said if I did not pleasure him, he’d give me to them, so I did. Then he brought me to the city, so I’d be close when he wanted me.”

Tyrion himself made no such direct threat upon meeting Shae. But we have no idea what threats Bronn used, as Tyrion’s agent, to induce Shae’s cooperation, and he may well have warned her that Tyrion would give her to Shagga & Timmet if she failed to please him.

However, Tyrion later made what Shae seems to have interpreted as a direct threat. When she complains of his pot-girl plans, resists his plan to bring her into the city saying she’d rather remain at the manse, and seems to disbelieve his attempt to blame her mistreatment on his father, he slaps her in the face and tells her a story of what happened to the last whore-wife who failed to please him by shattering his little love fantasy.

As to the second point, people will object that this is a lie, because that wasn’t before she was brought into the city. Well, it is true that this second incident occurs well after she was first brought to King’s Landing. But it was RIGHT before he “brought her to the city” a second time, after taking away her jewels and removing her from the manse (which was outside city walls).

The comment “…so I’d be close when he wanted me,” better fits this latter context, and supports the idea that Shae is jumbling her chronology somewhat.

It is also interesting to note that, while Shae is at the manse, Tyrion deliberately surrounds Shae with monsters of the likes of Shagga & Timmet so that she will prefer his company.

“He made me do such shameful things.”

Prince Oberyn looked curious. “What sort of things.”

“Unspeakable things.” […] “With my mouth and … other parts, m’lord. All my parts. He used me every way there was, and … he used to make me tell him how big he was. My giant, I had to call him, my giant of a Lannister.”

All 100% true. Some may object at the implication that he sexual performances were reluctant. But such people forget that she was recruited by force of arms, instructed first by Bronn and then by Tyrion to play a part, and then slapped and (by heavy implication) threatened with gang rape when she complained of her working conditions.

It is also often claimed that she is lying when she says he made her call him a “Giant”. Please reread the chapter where they meet. He became angry when she accidentally used the phrase “small man”, and asked “What am I, a giant?”, obliging her to mollify him and give him the “right” answer. The whole “giant” thing was his idea.

[Lord Damian]

I have thought since another thread discussing Shae, that she is a spy planted by Dorne. Prince Doran Martel told his daughter that he had been working to bring down house Lannister for a while now. Pillow talk can lead to a lot of information. Perhaps Shae is another sand snake, the physical characteristics are there for sure. The giveaway was her switching from Tyrion's bed to Tywin when it was apparent Tyrion would not be around much longer. I bet soon after Tyrion's arrest, she was in Tywin's bed that night.

[Fearsome Fred]

I have thought since another thread discussing Shae, that she is a spy planted by Dorne.

I don't buy that story. If she is a spy, she is a spy for Tywin.

Pillow talk can lead to a lot of information.

Yes. And in Tyrion's case his lust for Shae is connected with his lust for power. For instance, he has the following thoughts literally while in the middle of screwing Shae:

“It is real, all of it, the wars, the intrigues, the great bloody game, and me in the center of it … me, the dwarf, the monster, the one they all scorned and laughed at, but now I hold it all, the power, the city, the girl. This is what I was made for, and gods forgive me, but I do love it. … And her. And her.” (CoK29/Tyr7)

Of course, the above is complete nonsense unless he first eliminates Joffrey, Cersei, and Tywin; and probably eventually Tommen as well.

I bet soon after Tyrion's arrest, she was in Tywin's bed that night.

Probably not, since she and Sansa's other maid were arrested and locked in the tower.

[Revan Baratheon]

I agree with wat u said EXCEPT the part where u think that tyrion "meant to have the throne" and that he wouldve killed his entire family..

Whores aside,tyrion would never turn on his own family,not even joffrey,yes he killed tywin but that was AFTER tywin condemned an innocent tyrion to death/NW.Also he was emotionally wrecked after confronting jaime,also he warned his dad not to say "whore" again....

I think,for most parts these were "half lies" which she was pressurized into saying by cersie.In the sense that shae believed them to be true.

So u are technically right,as Shae,with a whore's degree of understanding,might have thought her words to be true,although words are wind....

That part about tyrion getting shae's fiance killed and Shae being dornish is very interesting.,.

[jarl the climber]

I always thought that she was connected to Littlfinger who was involved in the brothel business and knew of Tywins secret fondness for prostitutes.He planted her in the Lannister army hoping she would come to Tywins attention. For all we know she did come to his attention, remember the chilling look Tywin gave Tyrion when they were talking right after the battle? Tywin did show an unusual interest in her. Shae was also very ambitious, she talked of Ellaria Sand with admiration saying how she had started out "little more than a whore and now is almost a princess". She might be camp follower or she could have been a hidden dagger planted by one of the Lannisters enemies, there is no conclusive evidence either way.But if she was an agent my money is on littlefinger. Tyrion never mentions Shae speaking with a dornish drawl one of the few accents that GM mentions in the book so I think we can rule out her being Dornish. But LF might have been working with Doran on this.

[Fearsome Fred]

I agree with wat u said EXCEPT the part where u think that tyrion "meant to have the throne" and that he wouldve killed his entire family..

Well, thanks for that much support. I actually expected much more outrage from the Tyrion-lovers and Shae-haters.

I agree that Tyrion has, at the back of his mind, the idea that he would never slay his own kin. But I do not believe him. If Shae believes that he would indeed do such thing, and Tyrion really believes otherwise, then I would say that Shae understands Tyrion better than Tyrion understands Tyrion. But Tyrion himself admits he has been dreaming of killing his family since a young age.

Varys, who is no dunce, also believed that Tyrion's actions were aimed at Joffrey's eventual death, and commented on this fact at least twice to Tyrion's face.

When Tyrion kidnaps Tommen, it is made clear that the reason he wants control of Tommen is because of his claim to the throne. This will ONLY become relevant if Joffrey dies; a point no lost on Cersei.

No explanation has ever been given for Tyrion's second theft of Pycelle's poisons (the lethal ones). What was he planning to use them for? He does not need poison unless acting against his own family, because, as he points out to Shae, against anyone else has all the power of House Lannister.

Whores aside,tyrion would never turn on his own family,not even joffrey,yes he killed tywin but that was AFTER tywin condemned an innocent tyrion to death/NW.

No. Tyrion killed Tywin after Tywin, (who sincerely believes that Tyrion is in fact guilty) offered a second time to spare Tyrion's life in SPITE of his guilt.

The fact that Tyrion would kill his kin, rather than join the Night Watch, shows that he WOULD indeed murder his kin.

You say it was only because Tywin said "whore". Well, what sort of provocations do you think Joffrey would have continued to give Tyrion, if he had stayed alive? Tyrion actions have made a mortal enemy of Joffrey, and while some of these actions are justified or even admirable, the fact remains that Tyrion is not the sort of person to give his life for Joffrey. Do you really think Tyrion intends to let his mortal enemy come of age and rise to absolute power?

[Silmarien]

We know that, in the past, Tyrion has ignored Shae’s cries of pain during sex, preferring the fantasy that they are cries of ecstasy. It is also possible that influence of the dragon-skulls may have made him rather more psycho than normal.

WHOA. Can you provide textual citations for this? Because you're either reading between the lines A LOT, or I really really missed some important shit when reading the novels (3 times).

When did Shae tell him he was hurting her, and when did she cry out in pain during sex?

ETA: I don't particularly love Tyrion, and I don't hate Shae. I just seriously never ever inferred this while reading the novels before and would like to know where you're getting this from. Seriously.

The only prostitutes/slaves he abuses were in ADWD, as far as I can recall (the slave at Illyrio's manse, and the hired prostitute near Volantis in the whore house).

[corbon]

WHOA. Can you provide textual citations for this? Because you're either reading between the lines A LOT, or I really really missed some important shit when reading the novels (3 times).

When did Shae tell him he was hurting her, and when did she cry out in pain during sex?

ETA: I don't particularly love Tyrion, and I don't hate Shae. I just seriously never ever inferred this while reading the novels before and would like to know where you're getting this from. Seriously.

The only prostitutes/slaves he abuses were in ADWD, as far as I can recall (the slave at Illyrio's manse, and the hired prostitute near Volantis in the whore house).

Just don't feed the troll.

[Fearsome Fred]

When did Shae tell him he was hurting her,

I never said she told him that (though we don't know what happened during the dragon-room incident). Her job is to pretend she enjoys the sex.

and when did she cry out in pain during sex?

CoK3/Tyrion1; end of chapter. (p. 69 in the US mass market paperback).

Unless you prefer to believe they really WERE screams of ecstacy, and that Shae totally does not mind those bite-marks on her breasts.

Tyrion was so out of control he did not even realize he was biting her. Draw your own conclusions as to whether Shae found that painful and frightening. But even before he saw the bite marks, Tyrion did not believe it was genuine ecstacy that made her scream and dig her claws into his back.

[Revan Baratheon]

Just don't feed the troll.

Whoa man,this guy's just got a crackpot theory like the rest 99.9% people on these forums and he wants to share it with others...just cause ur opinion is different from him, he's a troll right? U want trolls go to u-tube...

[Fryie]

Just don't feed the troll.

this.

[Lord_Debaka]

eh... I'll humor you, and thats all I will bother with.

Tyrion was not a bad guy, and for the most part wanted good things for his family. You say everyone else infers things about Shae, and yet you infer that Tyrion 100 % would have killed his whole family?

This does sound a touch trolly to me.

[Fearsome Fred]

eh... I'll humor you, and thats all I will bother with.

How condescending!

Tyrion was not a bad guy, ...

The direwolves disagree and so do I. But that's beside the point. Whether or not Tyrion is a "bad guy" is not the subject of my post. My post is about whether Shae honestly believed her own testimony, or whether she believed more of it than is generally acknowledged.

and for the most part wanted good things for his family.

Really? Where do you get that from? He wants good things for Joffrey? For Cersei? For Tywin? Is there textual support for this?

How about Lancel? There is at least some textual support for kind thoughts about Lancel. But still, Tyrion knew his actions would likely lead to Lancel's death, but went ahead anyway. Even though Lancel (unlike Tywin, Cersei or Joffrey) did not in Tyrion's estimation "deserve" this. His power struggles took precedence over his kind feelings for Lancel.

When you play the game of thrones you win or die. Tyrion was getting caught up in playing "the game"; and I don't think he intends to die.

You say everyone else infers things about Shae, and yet you infer that Tyrion 100 % would have killed his whole family?

No. The premise of my post is that Shae's statements cannot be proven to be lies because, even if false, Shae may have reasonably believed those statements. I presented this idea only as a possibility worth considering, not a proven fact. I have enough evidence for THAT at least.

This does sound a touch trolly to me.

And that sounds a touch insulting to me. Good job taking the high road.

[corbon]

Whoa man,this guy's just got a crackpot theory like the rest 99.9% people on these forums and he wants to share it with others...just cause ur opinion is different from him, he's a troll right? U want trolls go to u-tube...

Not because of the idea, but because of the deliberately provocative statements, many of which are on the wrong side of half-truths (though others are well presented accurate statements) and the expressed expectation of receiving outrage.

The idea is worthy of discussion, but the OP was clearly written deliberately beyond the 'edge' in order to maximise indignation and outrage. Is that not practically the definition of trolling?

[Silmarien]

I never said she told him that (though we don't know what happened during the dragon-room incident). Her job is to pretend she enjoys the sex.

CoK3/Tyrion1; end of chapter. (p. 69 in the US mass market paperback).

Unless you prefer to believe they really WERE screams of ecstacy, and that Shae totally does not mind those bite-marks on her breasts.

Tyrion was so out of control he did not even realize he was biting her. Draw your own conclusions as to whether Shae found that painful and frightening. But even before he saw the bite marks, Tyrion did not believe it was genuine ecstacy that made her scream and dig her claws into his back.

Erm, bite marks don't necessarily bother me (unless they are Biter-like bite-marks or if they break skin enough to be bleeding, which the text does NOT indicate Shae was bloody).

So now if there were nail scratches on her back that would constitute brutal violent rape of Shae, too?

Flimsy.

ETA: I could just as easily interpret that as Shae enjoying some light S&M biting/scrathing. It's really not that uncommon. And if she pretended to like it, the how was Tyrion (self-deluded enough already) supposed to KNOW she hated it if she didn't say "ouch, that hurts me!" She had no problem mocking him to his face about his father, or demanding her jewels. Why not speak up about not liking the "violent" sex you're portraying?

[Silmarien]

FF, your argument would be shot down as pure conjecture in a court of law. It just does NOT follow from the text that Shae was truly this terrified sex slave who couldn't speak up for herself (um, she does speak up for herself several times) and you're really implying a lot of BS that was never stated in the text about Tyrion's treatment of her.

You said you were a lawyer? Well, if I were Shae, I'd be grateful, but you're making yourself look foolish by making Tyrion literally look like he enjoys sexual torture, humiliation, dominance, and violence, when his story arc is about him falling into the trap of believing the "act" prostitutes put on for clients and him actually falling for her just like he "thought" he fell for Tysha (who ended up not being a whore but he had no way of knowing that at age 13).

[Fearsome Fred]

Not because of the idea, but because of the deliberately provocative statements, many of which are on the wrong side of half-truths (though others are well presented accurate statements)

And which ideas have I expressed that you believe are indefensible?

and the expressed expectation of receiving outrage.

The fact that others are passionate in their hatred of my opinions does not make these opinons anything other than sincere.

The idea is worthy of discussion, [...]

So says he who tried to shut down discussion.

but the OP was clearly written deliberately beyond the 'edge' in order to maximise indignation and outrage. Is that not practically the definition of trolling?

If you think I have crossed the line, please report me to the moderators.

[Tyrionthebest]

Whoa man,this guy's just got a crackpot theory like the rest 99.9% people on these forums and he wants to share it with others...just cause ur opinion is different from him, he's a troll right? U want trolls go to u-tube...

You know, this is ironic coming from you .

[Silmarien]

Not because of the idea, but because of the deliberately provocative statements, many of which are on the wrong side of half-truths (though others are well presented accurate statements) and the expressed expectation of receiving outrage.

The idea is worthy of discussion, but the OP was clearly written deliberately beyond the 'edge' in order to maximise indignation and outrage. Is that not practically the definition of trolling?

[Amended - not trolling, but intentionally misreading of the text to make it fit his personal ideas of what he thinks Tyrion is, not what the author has written]. It's a very provocative and incendiary crackpot.

Look, FF argues that because GRRM fades and doesn't explain the sex scene, Shae might not be lying about that BS about saying Shae was privileged to be the king's whore NOT being a lie.

GRRM doesn't skip shit that's important to character development. If he wanted to portray Tyrion as a violent, demeaning, sexual abuser, he would have explicitly done so (see Ramsay, Roose, Gregor, Gregor's crew, Bloody Mummers, and plenty of others). This is just ridiculous.

[Silmarien]

Robert Baratheon was often sexually "rough" and violent with Cersei, and she had absolutely no way of escaping him. She was his lawful wife not his whore. Not that it makes a difference on a human level, but could we not say that Robert acted far worse in treating his Queen worse than Tyrion ever treated Shae? Including the smacking around (except Robert hit harder).

So is Robert = Tyrion in terms of how violent and depraved and cruel they were toward Cersei and Shae respectively?