Less examined bits of the AA prophecy

[Sofia Aillard]

I don't know if it was actually that exact. Jon was born around the time of the Sack to about a month after, in that window. Dany was born about nine months after Jon. I don't remember Rhaegar's own death being the marker there, but rather the Sack.

I don't know why, but I got the feeling that the Sack occured about the time, or the same month at least, of Rhaegar's death.... Anyway, here's the quote I read:

"Queen Rhaella died giving birth to Daenerys during a terrible storm almost precisely nine months after the death of Rhaegar" 22th paragraph

"Startlingly, he would bring with him a child, Jon Snow, whom he claimed as his son. The child was born eight or nine months prior to Daenerys Targaryen" - 23th paragraph

http://www.westeros....erts_Rebellion/

Also

http://www.westeros....SSM/Entry/1040/

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I thought this too, but let's hope that's not the case.

God I hope not.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not much for cheap bumping, but everyone should read Tze's #314 post. If that doesn't make you perk up a little and think, "Well that's interesting ..." you're a lost cause. :P

[the Winged Knight]

Couldn't the two kings mention be Rhaegar, and Jon himself? When Jon "dies" he is reawakened as AA his father being the king and Jon being the second......if R+L=J

[Ygrain]

I'm not much for cheap bumping, but everyone should read Tze's #314 post. If that doesn't make you perk up a little and think, "Well that's interesting ..." you're a lost cause. :P

Yeah,yeah, I just couldn't get round to replying :-)

THe idea that "smoke and salt" might actually be "mist/fog/fume and snow" is ingenious. And, if it is truly the correct interpretation of a magnificent red herring, I know of a place that fits the description - Winterfell. With the steaming warm springs and the shroud of snow... and the stone dragon rising.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And, if it is truly the correct interpretation of a magnificent red herring, I know of a place that fits the description - Winterfell. With the steaming warm springs and the shroud of snow... and the stone dragon rising.

:drool:

This is one instance where the dancing banana emoticon would come in handy.

ETA: Another thing I like about Tze's interpretation is that it dovetails nicely into my hunch that ice and fire are two sides of the same coin, and that what we're really working with here is dualism. How fitting that a prophecy might confuse signs of one with signs of another. One thing I generally stick to is that however people are interpreting it in the story is probably not how it's actually going to come into play. So Dragonstone might actually end up being ... nothing.

[Ygrain]

The biggest red herring then would be if AA wasn't Jon but Bran, whom Mel did see in her flames at around the time when she requested AA :D

However, PTWP seems to be connected with the Targs, so I'm afraid it will be Jon, after all. - Poor boy, I can't get rid of the feeling that this bodes ill for him, very ill.

The question also is: does "AA reborn" truly refer to the actual process of birth? If yo, then Winterfell doesn't fit, since this is not where Jon was born, and ToJ lacks the components. If he is to be revived... would it be too much of a stretch to leave him stored at the Wall for some time, before the Boltons are eradicated from Winterfell, and then have him transported to the crypts, to let him rest with his ancestors (provided that Robb's will resurfaces meanwhile, which would make him a Stark posthumously), and only there and then let Mel perform a kiss of life? Whatever I think of Mel, she's not an idiot; bringing Jon back to life in front of the guys who have just witnessed him being killed would not be a very smart move.

Now that I think of it: does Jon's role as AA, as "confirmed" by Mel's erroneous reading from the fire, confirm, or at least hint at, R+L?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Now that I think of it: does Jon's role as AA, as "confirmed" by Mel's erroneous reading from the fire, confirm, or at least hint at, R+L?

I'm not sure you can go quiiite that far. There are at least a few still unanswered questions, namely, are they even the same person.

[Dacie]

<snip>

I replied to this idea earlier on in the thread. I don't think I addressed it to you directly or quoted you, so you may have missed it.

I added to your point that there is one group of people who have died fighting for a cause and been reborn: Rangers of the NW.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

<snip>

:bowdown:

I imagine you as sitting in a dimly lit room, whiskey in one hand, cigarette in the other, looking at your wall full of various notes and maps. Salt. Smoke and salt... Salt and smoke. What could it mean..? Wait a minute! The salt mines at [wherever they've got salt mines]! Yes, yes... of course, that's it!"

[Dacie]

(Sorry for two back-to-back posts, I can't multiple-quote on iPad :( )

@Tze, brilliant points. I love the new take on smoke and salt.

Couldn't the two kings mention be Rhaegar, and Jon himself? When Jon "dies" he is reawakened as AA his father being the king and Jon being the second......if R+L=J

The problem I have with this is Rhaegar was never officially king, as Aerys was still alive when he was killed on the Trident. I guess it goes back to how literal it is meant to be interpreted. Does the "king" have to be a figure of nobility universally recognized?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

:bowdown:

I imagine you as sitting in a dimly lit room, whiskey in one hand, cigarette in the other, looking at your wall full of various notes and maps. Salt. Smoke and salt... Salt and smoke. What could it mean..? Wait a minute! The salt mines at [wherever they've got salt mines]! Yes, yes... of course, that's it!"

The image is hilarious, especially because Tze's a lady, as far as I know. Not that ladies can't enjoy cigarettes and whiskey, but ... yeah.

Really though ... if they meant fire and seawater, why not just say so? If you saw a vision of the ocean, wouldn't you describe it as ... the ocean or the sea ... before you'd describe it as salt? :shocked: Especially because so many of these prophecies rely on visual interpretations. "I saw a woman who was a fish ..."

[Corm]

(Sorry for two back-to-back posts, I can't multiple-quote on iPad :( )

First world problems, eh?

The problem I have with this is Rhaegar was never officially king, as Aerys was still alive when he was killed on the Trident. I guess it goes back to how literal it is meant to be interpreted. Does the "king" have to be a figure of nobility universally recognized?

I think to keep within reason we do have to assume that it does mean someone who was recognised in some way as being a king, the more figuratively we look at it, the wilder our theories become. While I think that we can include Robb, Stannis, Balon, Joffrey and Renly as well as any Dustin, I think that someone such as Rhaegar can't be considered

Really though ... if they meant fire and seawater, why not just say so? If you saw a vision of the ocean, wouldn't you describe it as ... the ocean or the sea ... before you'd describe it as salt? :shocked:

Please Apple, this is a prohecy we're talking about, ambiguity and vagueness is in its very nature, especially as a plot device.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Please Apple, this is a prohecy we're talking about, ambiguity and vagueness is in its very nature, especially as a plot device.

I don't appreciate sass, thanks.

And yes "ambiguity and vagueness" are factors, but I think "ambiguity and vagueness" to the extent of seeing the sea and calling it salt kind of beggars common sense. But these are red priests we're talking about, so who knows.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

The image is hilarious, especially because Tze's a lady, as far as I know. Not that ladies can't enjoy cigarettes and whiskey, but ... yeah.

My favorite ladies all enjoy cigarettes and whiskey. :P

But, yes, let me add in my praise for Tze's last post which was brilliant and very interesting and which I can totally buy. And while Jon Snow may not have been born in Winterfell, Bran 'Last Hero parallel' Stark certainly was. So if the Red Priests are all wrong about who AA is, and he/she is not associated with 'Fire,' then Bran could very well fit the prophecy*. Also, this depends on the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy being incorrect about from whose line TPWWP would come, but Bran is certainly a Prince.

*Of course, he can already be fit into it from the burning of Winterfell, but Tze's interpretation works better for the 'born again' part, given that Bran was literally born in Winterfell and also sort of 'reborn' in Winterfell after his fall, while it's sort of a stretch to fit a rebirth into the burning of Winterfell aftermath.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

The image is hilarious, especially because Tze's a lady, as far as I know. Not that ladies can't enjoy cigarettes and whiskey, but ... yeah.

Everyone should enjoy a good whiskey now and then!

Really though ... if they meant fire and seawater, why not just say so? If you saw a vision of the ocean, wouldn't you describe it as ... the ocean or the sea ... before you'd describe it as salt? :shocked: Especially because so many of these prophecies rely on visual interpretations. "I saw a woman who was a fish ..."

Yes. You've often argued, and I've agreed (whenever you start a-theorizin' I tend to just press the 'Like This' button per default) that sometimes prophecies shouldn't be taken so literally. Lightbringer = NW comes to mind. However, tze's idea would be awesome since it would actually be literal (what's that? a few tons of salt and some smoke I guess?) while still being an almost impossibly obscure way of describing, say, a snow blanket and steaming warm springs.

[Corm]

I don't appreciate sass, thanks.

And yes "ambiguity and vagueness" are factors, but I think "ambiguity and vagueness" to the extent of seeing the sea and calling it salt kind of beggars common sense. But these are red priests we're talking about, so who knows.

Sass?! WTF are you talking about?!!

I was referring to an overused plot device especially prevalent in fantasy novels, how can you take offense to that?

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

But, yes, let me add in my praise for Tze's last post which was brilliant and very interesting and which I can totally buy. And while Jon Snow may not have been born in Winterfell, Bran 'Last Hero parallel' Stark certainly was. So if the Red Priests are all wrong about who AA is, and he/she is not associated with 'Fire,' then Bran could very well fit the prophecy*. Also, this depends on the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy being incorrect about from whose line TPWWP would come, but Bran is certainly a Prince.

*Of course, he can already be fit into it from the burning of Winterfell, but Tze's interpretation works better for the 'born again' part, given that Bran was literally born in Winterfell and also sort of 'reborn' in Winterfell after his fall, while it's sort of a stretch to fit a rebirth into the burning of Winterfell aftermath.

The Ghost of High Heart seemed to have been very explicit about the line, at least according to Barristan. Maybe Bran's association with Brynden could have muddied up her visions a bit. Bit of a stretch, but it could probably work if someone other than Barristan would give a different phrasing of what the old woman actually said.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

The Ghost of High Heart seemed to have been very explicit about the line, at least according to Barristan. Maybe Bran's association with Brynden could have muddied up her visions a bit. Bit of a stretch, but it could probably work if someone other than Barristan would give a different phrasing of what the old woman actually said.

Yea, I recognize that my interpretation depends on TGoHH being flat out wrong, woefully misunderstood, or completely misquoted but I think it's worth thinking about.

[John W]

I think we've run the "smoke and salt" and "stone dragon" things into the ground. I've been rereading ADWD this week and noticed again two instances that give some insight into the prophecy.

The first is from one of Jon's chapters when Melisandre is preparing to burn Mance.

"Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first, and then the son, so that both die kings."

Even though Melisandre has suggested that king's blood has power, this is the first instance of seeing this precise "recipe" to "wake the dragon." Granted Melisandre doesn't succeed in this, but I have to wonder how this fits into the prophecy and why we're only hearing about it now. And also, obviously, who is it or was it?

My favorite instance though is what Tyrion learns from Haldon. The red priest Benerro thinks that Dany is Azor Ahai (which is why I believe she isn't, but that's another story entirely), but also claims that "death itself will bend the knee." In the interest of intellectual honesty, you could say that Dany surviving the pyre could fit that. In addition to that, "all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn."

When is this supposed to happen? Is there a "light-switch-flipping" moment when someone "becomes" AA, and then the resurrections "kick in"?

Dany/AA is supposed to also usher in a summer that never ends, which sounds good in theory, except that an unending summer would cause the world to be just as off-kilter as it is now. It doesn't "solve" anything. Winter is just as necessary as summer.

Could this open the door to Ned making a return?