What Would Have Been Eddard's Best Move?

[dtones520]

Ned should have got out of Kings landing and went to Dragonstone with Stannis. Then joined the Northern forces along with the River Lords behind Stannis. Ned would have also been able to get some of the Lords of the Vale to support him, namely the Royce's. It's possible that Dorne would join the cause, just because of Ned being well respected for his actions with the Daynes. Which would have put about 40,000 men at Stannis' back.

Plus, Ned could have convinced Stannis and Renly to bury the hatchet until Kings Landing fell and the let them sort out who would be King.

With Ned still alive, I don't think the Greyjoys attack the North. Even if they did, they don't take Winterfell with Theon still being with Ned or even dead for Balon breaking the peace.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I agree Apple-but the OP asked how Ned would put a ruler who was acceptable to him on the throne, and just defending the North, while probably the smart choice for the Starks, wouldn't do that.

Right. In that case, he should still get everyone the hell out of the capital, back Stannis if that's his choice (and it's the only one that makes sense, in the context of "Ned") and contribute on that end by cutting off the roads between Casterly Rock and the capital. They'd be honor-bound to help defend the Riverlands anyway, chasing out Tywin's thugs. If the northerners and the riverlords can cut off the Lannister forces, and Stannis succeeds in taking out Renly as in the book, Stannis can attack the capital without having to worry about the eventual reinforcements. The northerners could even approach the Tyrells about a match between Margaery and Robb, before the Lannisters do.

ETA: And I agree that Ned might have been able to broker something between Renly and Stannis.

[dtones520]

Saying Ned should have allied with Renly is silly, because then he wouldn't be Ned. The OP said for the sake of this thread, Ned's goal is to

B.) Put a righteous, honorable ruler on the throne eventually who will serve justice.

Renly doesn't fit the description. If Ned is going to forsake his honor andlet the laws and customs of Westeros be spat upon, he might as well just support Joffrey for king. But Joffrey wasn't Robert's heir, and neither was Renly.

First thing Ned needs to do is get the hell out of King's Landing the moment Robert dies. Goal (A) is easy, once hes back in the north with his bannermen he can defend from practically any invasion. (B ) is harder. If he allies with Stannis and calls the FULL strength of the North, including every last levy and the hill tribes, who respected Ned, that gives Ned and Stannis maybe 35,000 men. Tywin would respect Ned more than Robb, and as a result would probably commit more to fighting the North and Riverlands. Balon would be much less likely to attack Lord Eddard Stark than King Robb, plus Ned would have never let Theon return to the islands. With both Ned and Robb leading the northern armies they could do a lot of damage. That might mean that Tywin doesn't have the option to group up with the Tyrells and go to KL, so when Stannis shadowbabies Renly he could successfully take the capital.

Still, its a tough situation. Taking King's Landing is one thing, Stannis and Ned keeping it is another. But with the North, the Riverlands, Stannis, and the Stormlands on one side, its possible to keep the Lannisters off the throne. And if that coalition could somehow manage to bring the Vale in on their side, the war would be over.

One thing, if Ned is not captured/dead, I don't think Robb leaves Winterfell. Remember, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, Robb would have been that man.

[salt]

The northerners could even approach the Tyrells about a match between Margaery and Robb, before the Lannisters do.

I think this would be unlikely as they seem dead set on the throne. However, if the Tyrells saw the momentum swinging toward Stannis and Ned, its possible they would have accepted a marriage between Loras and Shireen.

One thing, if Ned is not captured/dead, I don't think Robb leaves Winterfell. Remember, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, Robb would have been that man.

Possible, but it would take some time for Ned to get back to Winterfell, and ravens would have had Robb raise the banners before he got there. I'm not sure about the timeline, but that means Whispering Wood might have happened before Ned was back to take control of the banners. If Robb's military abilities become clear you could bet that Ned would utilize him on the battlefield, letting Bran be the Stark in Winterfell.

[dtones520]

Question, since Stannis has no male heirs, Renly comes before Shireen in succession right?

[dtones520]

Double post.

[ckal]

Ned should have got out of Kings landing and went to Dragonstone with Stannis. Then joined the Northern forces along with the River Lords behind Stannis. Ned would have also been able to get some of the Lords of the Vale to support him, namely the Royce's. It's possible that Dorne would join the cause, just because of Ned being well respected for his actions with the Daynes. Which would have put about 40,000 men at Stannis' back.

Just 40,000? The North+Riverlands+Dragonstone+possible other allies? Seems like it would easily be more than that.

Plus, Ned could have convinced Stannis and Renly to bury the hatchet until Kings Landing fell and the let them sort out who would be King.

This is something I doubt. Nobody could talk Stannis out of this. Many tried, zero succeeded.

With Ned still alive, I don't think the Greyjoys attack the North. Even if they did, they don't take Winterfell with Theon still being with Ned or even dead for Balon breaking the peace.

I'm sure you are right. Greyjoy's only attacked the North because there was literally zero defense there. Buncha pansies =P

[salt]

Question, since Stannis has no male heirs, Renly comes before Shireen in succession right?

I believe that is correct, though I'm not 100 percent sure of the inheritance laws for the Iron Throne/the Baratheons. If Renly would accept that, that would be great for the side of King Stannis. If he wouldn't, he could still shadowbaby him and marry Shireen to Loras, if the Lannisters are losing the war the Tyrells would be smart enough to switch to the winning side. I'm pretty sure Loras would accept the wishes of his family and make a political marriage...and after all, Loras wouldn't know it was Stannis who killed Renly.

[dtones520]

Just 40,000? The North+Riverlands+Dragonstone+possible other allies? Seems like it would easily be more than that.

This is something I doubt. Nobody could talk Stannis out of this. Many tried, zero succeeded.

I'm sure you are right. Greyjoy's only attacked the North because there was literally zero defense there. Buncha pansies =P

Considering Robb had about 20,000 at his back when he called the Banners and went South, I'd say that 40,000 is about right with potential allies. Stannis didn't have many men at all.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Question, since Stannis has no male heirs, Renly comes before Shireen in succession right?

Yes.

[ckal]

dtone-

Hmmm. Didn't Robb have about 20k foot, plus 5-10k horse? I'm foggy on the details. I remember in ACOK Edmure wanted to face Tywin with 10k men, after Jaime smashed him in AGOT. I think Stannis had somewhere around 3-5k.

Yeah that's about right. Good stuff man. If we could only kill that crazy Lysa and get those Vale-men to join in the fun! (ps I haven't read past ACOK so idk if what I'm saying in regards to the Vale is still valid).

[oba]

Yes.

Not sure about the Iron Throne, but under ordinary inheritance laws, doesn't Shireen precede Renly in the same way that Cersei is ahead of Kevan and his sons in the line of succession for Casterly Rock?

[femfatalatron]

Yeah I have the same question as oba... I'm not sure Renly's ahead of Shireen. But for *sure* Shireen's son would come before Renly, yeah?

I imagine, a Ned/Stannis alliance would have much better chances if Stannis had more children to marry off. Ned's got plenty, but marrying into the king's sidekick's family is much less appealing. I wonder if a Shireen/Willas marriage (despite being a initially bit dodgy due to the age difference) wouldn't work? Or perhaps the Vale could be tempted to involve themselves by a Shireen/Sweetrobin match? (Though I wonder if that doesn't sacrifice long-term stability for short term gain, cuz that kid does not look likely to become a good leader.) What's the Vale's military strength like anyways... a match for the Tyrells?

[femfatalatron]

Oh yeah, and good lord, I can't imagine Ned Stark being down with that crazy shadow-baby business. I'd love to see the conversation he and Davos have over beers after figuring that one out.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Going with Littlefinger or Renly doesn't keep the North out of the conflict, though, and would be a mess in the long run. My aim in describing what he should have done was to get him and the girls out of the city, and keep the North out of the main dynastic conflict. Picking a side at that point would have been futile — Littlefinger would have screwed him over at some point anyway, and if Melisandre had still succeeded in killing Renly, that'd put Ned right back where he started. He should have done what the Vale did — be on alert but otherwise uninvolved — and let them all wreck each other.

oh not necessarily. I don't think Littlefinger bore Ned any ill will except that Ned treated him like shit. Melisandre is beyond's Ned's knowledge. And he can't keep the North out of the war. Stannis will send his letters and call his banners and Ned would be obliged to defend either Robert's true born children or Rorbert's brother from the treasonous Lannisters.He should have done what the Vale did? So basically Ned should be Littlefinger? I agree.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Yes.

Question, since Stannis has no male heirs, Renly comes before Shireen in succession right?

wrong. a child of the Body comes before a brother. As Cersei is the Lady of Casterly Rock and Kevan is not the Lord.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Right. In that case, he should still get everyone the hell out of the capital, back Stannis if that's his choice (and it's the only one that makes sense, in the context of "Ned") and contribute on that end by cutting off the roads between Casterly Rock and the capital. They'd be honor-bound to help defend the Riverlands anyway, chasing out Tywin's thugs. If the northerners and the riverlords can cut off the Lannister forces, and Stannis succeeds in taking out Renly as in the book, Stannis can attack the capital without having to worry about the eventual reinforcements. The northerners could even approach the Tyrells about a match between Margaery and Robb, before the Lannisters do.

ETA: And I agree that Ned might have been able to broker something between Renly and Stannis.

WHAT! Stannis won't bend the knee to Renly. And the Tyrells will not support Stannis. Which means the Tyrells would support the Lannisters. And Stannis and Ned and now Renly are all still fucked.

[Ser? My Lady? Ser?]

YOU GUYS ARE FORGETTING ONE VALUABLE POINT!!!

Everybody seems to agree that getting the hell out of KL as soon as Robert died would be a good idea, however that would mean Ned would have to turn down his best friends dying wish. Not only is it a dying wish, but a royal command. No doubt he could have thrown the paper into a brazier and pretend it never happened, however can any of you here picture him really doing that? It's just not honorable, to turn down your closest friends dying wish, and a royal command at that.

As soon as he made it clear to Cersei that he was going to attempt to remove her from power it was from that point on he was in a real dilly of a pickle. Perhaps there was nothing he could do at all, especially bolt to Winterfell, considering his best friend and king lay dying. No honorable man would have left him there like that, least of all Eddard Stark. I honestly think that there was nothing he could do to get out of that situation and retain his impenetrable honor.

Also, why do people think that Theon not returning to the Iron Islands would have caused Balon to not attack the North? He would have undoubtedly gone ahead with his plans regardless, as he seemed pretty hellbent on doing once we are introduced to him.

[dtones520]

YOU GUYS ARE FORGETTING ONE VALUABLE POINT!!!

Everybody seems to agree that getting the hell out of KL as soon as Robert died would be a good idea, however that would mean Ned would have to turn down his best friends dying wish. Not only is it a dying wish, but a royal command. No doubt he could have thrown the paper into a brazier and pretend it never happened, however can any of you here picture him really doing that? It's just not honorable, to turn down your closest friends dying wish, and a royal command at that.

As soon as he made it clear to Cersei that he was going to attempt to remove her from power it was from that point on he was in a real dilly of a pickle. Perhaps there was nothing he could do at all, especially bolt to Winterfell, considering his best friend and king lay dying. No honorable man would have left him there like that, least of all Eddard Stark. I honestly think that there was nothing he could do to get out of that situation and retain his impenetrable honor.

Also, why do people think that Theon not returning to the Iron Islands would have caused Balon to not attack the North? He would have undoubtedly gone ahead with his plans regardless, as he seemed pretty hellbent on doing once we are introduced to him.

Roberts dying wish was that Ned rule as reagent until "his son" Joffrey came of age. Since Joffrey wasn't truly his son, no matter what Ned did, he wasn't betraying Roberts dying wish.

[dtones520]

WHAT! Stannis won't bend the knee to Renly. And the Tyrells will not support Stannis. Which means the Tyrells would support the Lannisters. And Stannis and Ned and now Renly are all still fucked.

Except, the shadow baby still probably happens, so Renly still dies. Stannis still gains the support of most of Renly's men, outside of the Tyrells, and has the strength of the North and Riverlands (possibly the Vale and Dorne) at his back against the Tyrells and Lannisters.