Sansa and LF's land grab!

[the Scorpion Knight]

What tale? All Petyr did was get the kid a job. If there's anyone for her to be upset with its Tywin, Cersei, Roose and Ramsay.

he forced her to prostitution on the age of 11!(thats illegall in westeros and in RL) not to mention that the girl is part of the nobility

and he told tywin he found arya

The Riverlands aren't even worth having.

he has them and is stuck with them

[jarl the climber]

Right now Petyr does not have the Riverlands, all he has is Harrenhal. It seems like the Freys are trying to grab up as much property there as they can. Once Petyrs betrayal is known I'm sure Harrenhal will be seized from him. What does being Lord Paromour really mean? Is Petyr getting any incomes from the Riverlands right now? If people aren't fufilling there duties to him what can he do? Have his brothels shut down until they start paying?

[Lyanna Stark]

I wouldn't really call it betrayal. I mean unless you want to say Ned betrayed Petyr by trying to put Stannis on the throne.

Petyr promised Ned the gold cloaks would be his, but when the shit hit the fan, they were the Lannisters'.

[FuzzyJAM]

Littlefinger's current power is his (presumed) wealth, nominal title as High Lord of the Riverlands, and shaky status as LP of the Vale. That's not enough to be a major player (e.g. contending for complete control of Westeros) overtly by any stretch of the imagination, unless there's something that's been hidden from the reader so far (there are slight hints that he's a Targ supporter, though I doubt it). That's why I'm saying he needs Sansa as a bargaining chip to work with other parties. He has a theoretical possibility to unify the North (through Sansa), Vale (through his current status) and Riverlands (through Sansa and nominal lordship), and if he can use these three kingdoms to broker an alliance with another power he can begin to work overtly, which he has to do eventually. The problem is that the North is devastated, lacks unity, and Sansa is of course not the "Queen in the North" anyway; the Vale lords are being bought or convinced only to allow him time to prove himself useful to them - if he's to use them, he must present it as in their best interests; and the Riverlands are only under his nominal control, with the chances of being able to produce the daughter of the daughter of the second last High Lord (as well as sister to their short-lived king, I guess) unlikely to give him all that much support.

Really, I see it as all going downhill from here for the House of Baelish.

P.S. Socialism is capitalism? Wut? I know those are loose, fluidly defined words, but c'mon. . .

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Petyr promised Ned the gold cloaks would be his, but when the shit hit the fan, they were the Lannisters'.

Yeah. I don't think that's really a betrayal. Petyr spelled out for Ned why he didn't want Stannis to be king and presented him with a viable alternative which Ned declined.

I put that in the category of corporate layoffs. "It's just not going to work out, Ned's not a good fit at Iron Throne Incorporated" or The deal is off, time to invoke the MAC.

If Petyr had told Ned he wouldn't support him, would it have made any difference?

[Lyanna Stark]

Yeah. I don't think that's really a betrayal. Petyr spelled out for Ned why he didn't want Stannis to be king and presented him with a viable alternative which Ned declined.

:lol:

OK, in everyone else's eyes I think this definitely counts as betrayal. I think in Sansa's eyes it would count as betrayal. I guess you know when you read about Sansa offing sweet Petyr that somewhere, I'll be laughing. ;)

[Jayaris]

Yeah. I don't think that's really a betrayal. Petyr spelled out for Ned why he didn't want Stannis to be king and presented him with a viable alternative which Ned declined.

I put that in the category of corporate layoffs. "It's just not going to work out, Ned's not a good fit at Iron Throne Incorporated" or The deal is off, time to invoke the MAC.

If Petyr had told Ned he wouldn't support him, would it have made any difference?

There's a slim chance he might of better considered Cersei's offer to bend the knee and return to Winterfell.

[Jayce]

Agreeing to something and then not only not delivering, but giving the exact opposite, especially when it results in the person you had the agreement with being arrested/killed, is certainly a betrayal, no matter which way you cut it.

Sorry LLF I don't agree with you on this one.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Littlefinger's current power is his (presumed) wealth, nominal title as High Lord of the Riverlands, and shaky status as LP of the Vale.

I wouldn't call his status shaky. It was shaky with when the Lords Declarant ascended to the Eryie but by the time they made their dissent things had solidified.

You've also forgotten his alliance with Lady Olena

That's not enough to be a major player (e.g. contending for complete control of Westeros) overtly

I don't know that he would ever make such a definitive statement. I think it would be something more akin to:

“Proclaim who you bloody well like,” he told Crakehall. Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees, to see who would come to claim the kingdom."

That being said, every Westerosi with a seat is in the Game of Thrones. From the lowliest landed knight to the King. From Last Hearth to Spottswood. So being Lord paramount of the Riverlands and Lord protector of the Vale in his own right, is overtly proclaiming his intent to control all of Westeros.

by any stretch of the imagination, unless there's something that's been hidden from the reader so far (there are slight hints that he's a Targ supporter, though I doubt it).

You haven't explained why that's not sufficient to compete for control of all of Westeros? I did this ranking for another thread, which I think is fairly indicative of where he sits.

Nah: The Riverlands are a desolation.

YTD:

1)Lady Olena

2)Euron Greyjoy

3)Cersei Lannister

4)Randall Tarly

5-6)Petyr Baelish, Doran Martell

7) Walder Frey

8) Roose Bolton

9)Young Griff

10)Stannis

They both have large forces, that are unblooded. Their ability to project power is unknown. If the Riverlands were contributing something Petyr would be higher. But right now he only has the knight's of the Vale, and not an entirely united Vale, yet. The Vale forces are better armed and armored but Petyr's power base is less consolidated.

Still...

"... not bad for a City College boy.

Bought my way into this club

and now every one of these ivy

league schmucks is sucking my

kneecaps...I just got on the Board

of the Zoological Society, cost me

a million; that's the thing with

WASP[ STARKS ] -- they like animals but they

can't stand people."

That's why I'm saying he needs Sansa as a bargaining chip to work with other parties. He has a theoretical possibility to unify the North (through Sansa), Vale (through his current status) and Riverlands (through Sansa and nominal lordship), and if he can use these three kingdoms to broker an alliance with another power he can begin to work overtly, which he has to do eventually. The problem is that the North is devastated, lacks unity, and Sansa is of course not the "Queen in the North" anyway; the Vale lords are being bought or convinced only to allow him time to prove himself useful to them - if he's to use them, he must present it as in their best interests; and the Riverlands are only under his nominal control, with the chances of being able to produce the daughter of the daughter of the second last High Lord (as well as sister to their short-lived king, I guess) unlikely to give him all that much support. Really, I see it as all going downhill from here for the House of Baelish.

Well that's a horrible fucking plan. So of course you would see it going down hill. That shit doesn't make any sense.

P.S. Socialism is capitalism? Wut? I know those are loose, fluidly defined words, but c'mon. . .

Capitalism is Socialism? Is that better? There are no pure capitalist or pure socialist societies. There's just a gradient.

[FuzzyJAM]

If all you're saying Littlefinger has to work with is the Vale then how is he a serious contender? He can't challenge militarily at all and he doesn't have enough political leverage to forge alliances or challenge any of the major players so any attempt to ascend the throne relies on scheming, which is why I've said his only real chance is if he has some ace not yet revealed.

And saying something is a gradient is utterly different from saying two things are the same. Like. . .c'mon, now. Wealth and poverty aren't the same, freedom and tyranny aren't the same, ecstasy and agony aren't the same, etc., etc..

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

:lol: OK, in everyone else's eyes I think this definitely counts as betrayal. I think in Sansa's eyes it would count as betrayal. I guess you know when you read about Sansa offing sweet Petyr that somewhere, I'll be laughing. ;)

I guess what I was trying to communicate is that betrayal requires the existence of trust as a necessary precondition. Petyr and Ned aren't friends. Ned shoved a knife under Petyr's chin in a very menacing way on the first occasion of them meeting. Petyr told Ned not to trust anyone and he told Ned not to trust him. He explained to Ned why it was not in Petyr's interest for Stannis to be put on the throne.

I mean how far down this road is Petyr supposed to go with Ned? Is he supposed to let Ned get him killed? I mean do you really think Janus Slynt is going to go along with helping Ned put Stannis on the throne after Stannis tried to have him shit canned? So now, he's suppose to replace Slynt and all his men in the watch in one night and then trust that he will be able to maintain control of them when he orders them to seize the Royal Family? I mean seriously? I think Petyr was overly generous, with Ned. I can't imagine him doting on any other character like that. I think Petyr legitimately feels sorry for the nitwit.

Trust no one, I once told Eddard Stark, but he would not listen. You are Alayne, and you must be Alayne all the time.

Well if Sansa manages to turn into some sort of Lady Olena character by the end of the series, then I probably wouldn't care if she kills Petyr. Just like I had not problem with Arya trying to kill Sandor, even though I love Sandor. But Sansa would need to be a completely different person. As of yet she's still a few wits shy of over taking Lolys Stokeworth intellectually. And I won't enjoy that person killing Petyr anymore than I would enjoy Lolys killing Bronn. However it's probably too cliche for Sansa to kill Petyr, its the type of thing you can see coming from a mile away so I'm not sure that Martin would go that route anyway.

But if it does happen feel free to laugh, I know I laugh every time I read that scene with Ned in the dungeon. And I laughed when I heard Walder Frey sewed Greywind's head on Robb's body.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

If all you're saying Littlefinger has to work with is the Vale then how is he a serious contender? He can't challenge militarily

Why can't he?

at all and he doesn't have enough political leverage to forge alliances

Sure he does. He forges a personal alliance with Olena Tyrell, while bringing Mace Tyrell into the Lannister fold. He's able to dismantle the Lords Declarant. Jamie wants to make him Hand. Kevan and Cersei want to bring him back to run the Treasury.

or challenge any of the major players so any attempt to ascend the throne relies on scheming planning,

why don't you use something with less of a derogatory connotation. Well obviously being smarter than everyone else, would be a key element.

which is why I've said his only real chance is if he has some ace not yet revealed.

Well you should have left it ambiguous because those plans you mentioned were fucking horrible.

And saying something is a gradient is utterly different from saying two things are the same. Like. . .c'mon, now. Wealth and poverty aren't the same, freedom and tyranny aren't the same, ecstasy and agony aren't the same, etc., etc..

Yeah, I didn't say those things were the same. I said socialism and capitalism were. Any government which owns or subsidizes a major industry can be considered socialist. Which is to say all governments. And can country where individuals can accumulate personal property can be considered capitalist. Which is to say, all countries.

I could say capitalism doesn't exist if that make you feel better?

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Agreeing to something and then not only not delivering, but giving the exact opposite, especially when it results in the person you had the agreement with being arrested/killed, is certainly a betrayal, no matter which way you cut it. Sorry LLF I don't agree with you on this one.

I guess what I was trying to communicate is that betrayal requires the existence of trust as a necessary precondition. Petyr and Ned aren't friends. Ned shoved a knife under Petyr's chin in a very menacing way on the first occasion of them meeting. Petyr told Ned not to trust anyone and he told Ned not to trust him. He explained to Ned why it was not in Petyr's interest for Stannis to be put on the throne.

I mean how far down this road is Petyr supposed to go with Ned? Is he supposed to let Ned get him killed? I mean do you really think Janus Slynt is going to go along with helping Ned put Stannis on the throne after Stannis tried to have him shit canned? So now, he's suppose to replace Slynt and all his men in the watch in one night and then trust that he will be able to maintain control of them when he orders them to seize the Royal Family? I mean seriously? I think Petyr was overly generous, with Ned. I can't imagine him doting on any other character like that. I think Petyr legitimately feels sorry for the nitwit.

Trust no one, I once told Eddard Stark, but he would not listen. You are Alayne, and you must be Alayne all the time.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Right now Petyr does not have the Riverlands, all he has is Harrenhal. It seems like the Freys are trying to grab up as much property there as they can. Once Petyrs betrayal is known I'm sure Harrenhal will be seized from him. What does being Lord Paromour really mean? Is Petyr getting any incomes from the Riverlands right now? If people aren't fufilling there duties to him what can he do? Have his brothels shut down until they start paying?

No he has the Riverlands. And I don't how or why you keep getting huffed up about this "betrayal" no body knows about it no body would give a fuck if they did. Just like no body gives a fuck whether Brienne killed Renly or not. Of all the fucked up shit that's gone down in the war, that wouldn't even make a top 100 infractions list.

[the Scorpion Knight]

No he has the Riverlands. And I don't how or why you keep getting huffed up about this "betrayal" no body knows about it no body would give a fuck if they did. Just like no body gives a fuck whether Brienne killed Renly or not. Of all the fucked up shit that's gone down in the war, that wouldn't even make a top 100 infractions list.

on he paper the riverlord bent the knee to jaime

[Jayaris]

I guess what I was trying to communicate is that betrayal requires the existence of trust as a necessary precondition. Petyr and Ned aren't friends. Ned shoved a knife under Petyr's chin in a very menacing way on the first occasion of them meeting. Petyr told Ned not to trust anyone and he told Ned not to trust him. He explained to Ned why it was not in Petyr's interest for Stannis to be put on the throne.

"I ought to make you say it, but that would be cruel.. so have no fear, my good lord. For the sake of the love I bear for Catelyn, I will go to Janos Slynt this very hour and make certain that the city watch is yours..."

Can't see how this is anything other than a betrayal, Petyr and Ned may well not of been friends - But, Littlefinger did not declare his false intent lightly.

[Raksha the Demon]

Eek, think of how many children she'd have to pop out in order to have enough heirs to inherit all of those claims.

Well, her mother popped out five. Give Sansa a head start on Catelyn, starting at 16 instead of 19 or so, and she could manage seven kids, LOL.

Seriously, I think all that LF could practically manage is consolidating his hold on the Vale through Sansa. It was incredibly foolish of him, in my opinion, to frame Sansa for complicity in Joffrey's murder, and he should have had an assassin visit Tyrion in his cell before/during the trial rather than take any chance that Sansa's legal husband would escape or be found innocent. (what if the Red Viper had clearly won the combat?) Now he's got to wait until he can get Sansa's marriage annulled, for Cersei to die or be killed, and that could take five years - I have the feeling that Lady Waynwood is not going to wait forever for a choice young noblewoman for her ward. (though maybe she might want to wait five more years, Harry is still quite young and she might feel he needs to grow up first. I think Lady W might know or have figured out Sansa's true identity, but I'm not sure).

Littlefinger, masterfully clever as he is, cannot completely control the outcome of the chaos in the Riverlands, especially since the Freys and Lannisters are involved. If Roslin Tully bears a healthy son to Edmure and Edmure and the boy survive; then, when the Lannisters inevitably fall, Edmure will reclaim Riverrun for himself and his son. Even if Roslin has a daughter or dies in childbirth with a stillborn baby, Edmure could still reclaim Riverrun for himself. Littlefinger would have to kill off Edmure and his child to give Sansa a claim to Riverrun.

And Littlefinger does not know that Bran and Rickon are alive. If Rickon is alive and ends up in Manderly's custody with Shaggydog to prove that he's a Stark, then Rickon will inherit Winterfell unless Bran returns from the cave. And Sansa's value as a bride diminishes - not completely, since Rickon is a little boy and young children don't always survive to grow up, and if he dies later in battle without fathering children, then a son of Sansa would be next in line.

If Littlefinger can get Sansa's marriage to Tyrion annulled soon and the charges against her dismissed or pardoned (I'm sure that if Aegon or Daenerys kill Tommen and take the Iron Throne, they could manage a pardon for Sansa in return for Lord Baelish's good will and fealty), then he can marry Sansa Stark to Harry the Heir. Robert Arryn will die; if not of natural causes, then Littlefinger will help the boy's untimely demise come sooner. As soon as Sansa produces one or two sons for Harry, Littlefinger will arrange an accident for Harry. Then Littlefinger can marry the grieving widow who is now the Lady of the Vale, and Littlefinger has another 14-16 years of power before Sansa's son by Harry becomes Lord of the Eyrie and Vale. I think that's the best scenario for Littlefinger in terms of power, unless Aegon can remain unmarried (and alive) until Littlefinger can dangle Sansa in front of him as a bride in return for some favors (say, the permanent lordship of the Vale). I personally think that one of the Sand Snakes, or Arianne, is going to snap up Aegon in a marriage before TWOW ends, but I could easily be wrong.

I can't for the life of me figure out why Littlefinger isn't doing everything he can to keep Robert Arryn alive; rather than encouraging the use of the sweetsleep. He needs that kid alive and relatively well (i.e. not comatose) until Sansa is married to Harry and can entreat her new hubby to keep Littlefinger around as a counselor. If Robert dies before Sansa is married to Harry, the Vale-lords will happily force Littlefinger out of the Eyrie; there would be no legal pretext for him to be regent. Of course, his influence will have increased by then, but I'm not sure that Lady Waynwood wouldn't have more influence on Harry; and there's no reason for Harry to go along with keeping Littlefinger in power.

[jarl the climber]

No he has the Riverlands. And I don't how or why you keep getting huffed up about this "betrayal" no body knows about it no body would give a fuck if they did. Just like no body gives a fuck whether Brienne killed Renly or not. Of all the fucked up shit that's gone down in the war, that wouldn't even make a top 100 infractions list.

We can see that being a Paramount Lord means being able to deal with disloyal bannermen like the Florents, Freys, Boltons, etc. So you honestly don't think anyone will care that he kidnaped or rescued Sansa from Kings Landing? Renly was a traitor so of course no one cares about him but being Lord Paramount of the Trident is based on a peice of paper given to him by the Lannisters and King Joffery. He has issues with Sansa because she is suspected in Joffs death and is married to Tyrion.

The Freys do have some eyes and ears in the Vale, a Frey is Maester of Longbow Hall and there are some Freys married to the Waynewoods and Royces. Knowledge of Sansa being there under his protection would lead to his title being revoked and charges of treason. IMO this would make him more popular in the Vale if it beame known

[the Scorpion Knight]

The Freys do have some eyes and ears in the Vale, a Frey is Maester of Longbow Hall and there are some Freys married to the Waynewoods and Royces. Knowledge of Sansa being there under his protection would lead to his title being revoked and charges of treason. IMO this would make him more popular in the Vale if it beame known

I think this will make him much more unpopular especially since it might be revealed that he has a hand in the death of joffrey first ( the imprisoned kettleblacks remember)

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

he forced her to prostitution on the age of 11!

He got her a job. The same way Gendry, Hotpie, Lummey get one without any choice in the matter. As Arya get's one when she's at Harrenhal..

(thats illegall in westeros

I don't see any evidence of child labor laws in Westeros.

and in RL)

And I don't care what they do at Red Lobster

not to mention that the girl is part of the nobility and he told tywin he found arya

Petyr told Tywin he found a passable fake Arya.

“And Bolton? I might have known Frey would not have the stomach to act alone. But Arya... Varys and Ser Jacelyn searched for her for more than half a year. Arya Stark is surely dead.”

“So was Renly, until the Blackwater.”

“What does that mean?”

“Perhaps Littlefinger succeeded where you and Varys failed. Lord Bolton will wed the girl to his bastard son. We shall allow the Dreadfort to fight the ironborn for a few years, and see if he can bring Stark’s other bannermen to heel. Come spring, all of them should be at the end of their strength and ready to bend the knee. The north will go to your son by Sansa Stark... if you ever find enough manhood in you to breed one. Lest you forget, it is not only Joffrey who must needs take a maidenhead.”

“In any case,” the queen went on, “Lord Eddard’s younger daughter is with Lord Bolton, and will be wed to his son Ramsay as soon as Moat Cailin has fallen.” So long as the girl played her role well enough to cement their claim to Winterfell, neither of the Boltons would much care that she was actually some steward’s whelp tricked up by Littlefinger.

“

I’m the bloody Kingslayer, remember? When I say you have honor, that’s like a whore vouchsafing your maidenhood.” He leaned back and looked up at her. “Steelshanks is on his way back north, to deliver Arya Stark to Roose Bolton.”

“You gave her to him?” she cried, dismayed. “You swore an oath to Lady Catelyn...”

“With a sword at my throat, but never mind. Lady Catelyn’s dead. I could not give her back her daughters even if I had them. And the girl my father sent with Steelshanks was not Arya Stark.”

“Not Arya Stark?”

“You heard me. My lord father found some skinny northern girl more or less the same age with more or less the same coloring. He dressed her up in white and grey, gave her a silver wolf to pin her cloak, and sent her off to wed Bolton’s bastard.” He lifted his stump to point at her. “I wanted to tell you that before you went galloping off to rescue her and got yourself killed for no good purpose. You’re not half bad with a sword, but you’re not good enough to take on two hundred men by yourself.”

Brienne shook her head. “When Lord Bolton learns that your father paid him with false coin...”

“Oh, he knows. Lannisters lie, remember? It makes no matter, this girl serves his purpose just as well. Who is going to say that she isn’t Arya Stark? Everyone the girl was close to is dead except for her sister, who has disappeared.”

“Why would you tell me all this, if it’s true? You are betraying your father’s secrets.”

The Hand’s secrets, he thought. I no longer have a father. “l pay my debts like every good little lion. I did promise Lady Stark her daughters... and one of them is still alive. My brother may know where she is, but if so he isn’t saying. Cersei is convinced that Sansa helped him murder Joffrey.”

he has them and is stuck with them