Sansa and Harry the Heir

[Eddward Stark]

Well I admit that I am biased, because Sansa has never been one of my favorite characters. I will (albeit perhaps painstakingly) read through the threads on rereading/rethinking Sansa.

I realize that horrible things have happened to her, and I can certainly empathize with her. However, she had very few possibilities of making real friends. I think that anyone would try to make polite conversation with others in her situation. I believe it may be a stretch to call such people 'friends' though. The drunken knight whose life she saved, Ser Dontos, later planned to rescue her. She showed him compassion, and he wanted to help her in return. Recall that she also thought of him as a knight from a fairy tale at the time.

As far as judging characters is concerned, she seems to not mind Littlefinger too much, although he's one of the worst people in the realm. Yes, he's very smooth and hides his true nature well, but Sansa seems to be reasonably comfortable around him, except when he's being sleezy, unless I misremember. She doesn't even seem to hate him for having Ser Dontos killed (ha, Arya would have added him to her list, no doubt!). With regard to her helping Robert, I was truly impressed by her interactions with him. However, she was kind of forced into the role of a nanny / big sister, and developed a relationship with him in the process. Her compassion for various individuals doesn't necessarily mean (to me) that she's changed her opinions on what kind of man she wants to marry (for her second marriage). She never even warmed up to Tyrion, who was very outwardly critical of his own kin, and treated her rather gently. In him, she could have had a great ally if she were truly on her way to becoming a 'player.'

[Lady Kraken]

As far as judging characters is concerned, she seems to not mind Littlefinger too much, although he's one of the worst people in the realm. Yes, he's very smooth and hides his true nature well, but Sansa seems to be reasonably comfortable around him, except when he's being sleezy, unless I misremember. She doesn't even seem to hate him for having Ser Dontos killed (ha, Arya would have added him to her list, no doubt!). With regard to her helping Robert, I was truly impressed by her interactions with him. However, she was kind of forced into the role of a nanny / big sister, and developed a relationship with him in the process. Her compassion for various individuals doesn't necessarily mean (to me) that she's changed her opinions on what kind of man she wants to marry (for her second marriage). She never even warmed up to Tyrion, who was very outwardly critical of his own kin, and treated her rather gently. In him, she could have had a great ally if she were truly on her way to becoming a 'player.'

To be fair, Sansa is currently dealing with the master of manipulation. He's fooled basically everyone, with some exceptions older and with more life experience than Sansa. Petyr orchestrated her current situation to make Sansa pretty much completely dependent on him. He twists things--he presents Dontos as a false friend by revealing he was paying him to help Sansa and that he would have sold her out for more gold, and he even tells her the Tysha story to alienate her from Tyrion, who she does actually seem to consider a potential ally in AFfC:

"She would have fled them both [Petyr and Littlefinger], perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey..."

She mentally lists Tyrion alongside her family and as someone she could potentially escape the Vale to, which suggests she doesn't hate him and would possibly be open to an alliance/friendship in the future. It's hard to blame her, at least for me, for not warming up to Tyrion--she was a 12-year-old girl forced to marry an older man who is a member of the family that killed hers and is keeping her captive. It is worth mentioning that she does recognize that he was kind to her and doesn't want him to go down for Joffrey's murder; it's not as if she hates him, though she easily could.

And she's not completely sold on Littlefinger either:

"And sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle...but he was also Littlefinger...and Littlefinger was no friend of hers."

Though she is very much dependent on him at the moment. Maybe now that she's less isolated at the Gates of Moon and surrounded by more people who she could possibly befriend, she'll be able to change the dynamic of their relationship and further realize the darker side of Petyr Baelish. There are instances of her seeing past a person's looks to their real character/motives in AFfC, I believe (the encounter with Lyn Corbray comes to mind), and the major test, I think, will be if she can see through Petyr Baelish's charming exterior to his real motives in the future. She's at least certainly more critical about the people she trusts now.

All that being said, I highly doubt Sansa will be fooled by Harry's good looks or even his charming personality. Much of her arc has been about seeing past the superficial and realizing life is not a song. I think she'll see him for who he really is, good or bad. But only time will tell, I suppose.

As for the comment I put in bold, I thought this quotation was worth looking at. It's from AFfC when Petyr tells her about the betrothal to Harry.

"She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever."

It seems at this point Sansa is rather turned off to the idea of marriage in general. Somehow I don't think a charming young knight is going to change her attitude, especially after what the knights of the Kingsguard and the handsome Joffrey did to her. Not to mention the man she seems to fantasize the most about is a hideous, drunken non-knight, and she was perfectly willing to marry Willas the cripple.

Just my thoughts on the matter. :)

[Eddward Stark]

Thank you very much for the analysis. :) I guess one of the prevailing themes of this series is personal transformations. Sansa has definitely matured, and has become humbler and less naïve since the first book. I'm not yet completely convinced that she doesn't overvalue status and appearance; I don't think that even fictional characters can change that much, and she started out on a very far extreme in both regards. But perhaps she'll truly become a player and out-Littlefinger Littlefinger. If Harry the Heir turns out to be a good guy, the match could be to her benefit.

[Harle The Handsome]

What Lummel said above. Also, Sansa is Sansa LANNISTER now, and we know what the northmen and Stannis think of that = over my dead body that a Lannister rules in Winterfell. Add to that that Tyrion is a Kingslaying, Kinslaying Lannister and a dwarf. Not a chance in all the seven hells he will ever be accepted. As long as Sansa is married to Tyrion she will be barred from ever being seriously considered as a possible heir to Winterfell. It would just never ever happen. As much as the northerners want to get rid of Ramsay, they will not want to swap a mad Bolton for aforemented kinslaying Lannister dwarf. My guess is that when Davos comes back with Rickon, All Hell will Break Loose. This may also be Sansa's "trigger" to get rid of LF once and for all and try and go back north to rejoin her family.

So let me get this straight, you think the North will turn their backs on Ned's eldest daughter because some Septa in King's Landing says she is married to Tyrion? Not a chance. First things first, was this marriage consumated? Nope. Were these vows said before a weirwood tree? Didn't think so. A vow before a false god is no vow to the north and an unconsumated marriage means even less.. Mark my words, Sansa will get married before a weirwood tree, and that is the marriage the North will stand by. If any Lannisters want to claim her by marriage, they are welcome to come north and try.

[jlk7e]

So let me get this straight, you think the North will turn their backs on Ned's eldest daughter because some Septa in King's Landing says she is married to Tyrion? Not a chance. First things first, was this marriage consumated? Nope. Were these vows said before a weirwood tree? Didn't think so. A vow before a false god is no vow to the north and an unconsumated marriage means even less.. Mark my words, Sansa will get married before a weirwood tree, and that is the marriage the North will stand by. If any Lannisters want to claim her by marriage, they are welcome to come north and try.

Weren't Ned and Catelyn married by a Septon? There aren't any weirwood trees in Riverrun, so it's hard to see how that would work. I'll say that a) There is no evidence that worshipers of the old or new gods view worshipers of the other set of gods as worshipping false gods - Sansa prays both to the Seven and to the old gods, for instance; and B) there is surely some sort of mutual respect for marriages conducted under the two major religions of Westeros (and probably for marriages conducted under Iron Islands customs, as well), or the whole system wouldn't work. I agree that the fact that Sansa's marriage is uncomsummated is a bigger deal. One point worth questioning is who has the right to annul marriages conducted before the Old Gods? Marriages under the new tradition can be annulled by the High Septon, seemingly. But there's no such authority for the Old Gods. So how do such marriages get set aside? Would there be a process through civil law?

[Lummel]

There is a weirwood at Riverrun, it is a slim one and is described in a Catelyn chapter in AGOT, she finds Robb and some of his lords in prayer there after they end the siege of Riverrun.

Having said that I'm fairly sure that Catelyn and The Ned are described as marrying in the Sept before he hurries off to war.

[Lyanna Stark]

So let me get this straight, you think the North will turn their backs on Ned's eldest daughter because some Septa in King's Landing says she is married to Tyrion? Not a chance. First things first, was this marriage consumated? Nope. Were these vows said before a weirwood tree? Didn't think so. A vow before a false god is no vow to the north and an unconsumated marriage means even less.. Mark my words, Sansa will get married before a weirwood tree, and that is the marriage the North will stand by. If any Lannisters want to claim her by marriage, they are welcome to come north and try.

Possibly, but if the North is not its own kingdom, Sansa is married in the eyes of Gods and Men and as we know, the High Septon is not a biddable man. Further, if Sansa sets foot in Kings Landing, she is accused of regicide and on the run from justice, so that will hardly recommend her to the Faith.

It is one theory that if the North remains independent, she could return there and pretend the marriage to Tyrion never happened, but until the political situation is that stable, she cannot.

Two things speak for the marriage being annulled: it was never consummated and Sansa was under durress to marry Tyrion. It was against her wishes and I dare say against the wishes of her remaining family.

Everything else speaks for Sansa remaniing married to Tyrion, possibly as a future estranged wife. Or that she'll end up going the Cersei route and remain married but choose another father for her children, for instance. Or that she even remains Alayne Stone/Baelish since it gives her a level of autonomy her position as Sansa Stark Lady Lannister never would.

And yes, I think the Northmen are perfectly happy throwing Sansa under the proverbial bus. Cat was depressed that Robb wanted Sansa disinherited. The Northmen in general seemed fine with it, and Stannis certainly can't stand the thought of Sansa Stark Lady Lannister inheriting Winterfell. She's lost to them, so they'll cut their losses and move on to Arya, who's married to a northman (albeit a disgusting one) and nearer to hand. I'm sure had Sansa turned up with Tyrion in tow to Winterfell, they would happily have lopped off Tyrion's head, but the Lannisters would be fools to ever let Sansa set foot in the north. In fact, it seems clear from Robb's reasoning that Tywin et al would keep Sansa as brood mare in the south, and only a child of Tyrion and Sansa would eventually be allowed to return north to claim Winterfell. It's even been debated whether Tywin's plans included 1-2 heirs off Sansa and then killing her off, since it would be simpler with her dead. Dead she poses no threat and has no claim.

[Lyanna Stark]

Thank you very much for the analysis. :) I guess one of the prevailing themes of this series is personal transformations. Sansa has definitely matured, and has become humbler and less naïve since the first book. I'm not yet completely convinced that she doesn't overvalue status and appearance; I don't think that even fictional characters can change that much, and she started out on a very far extreme in both regards. But perhaps she'll truly become a player and out-Littlefinger Littlefinger. If Harry the Heir turns out to be a good guy, the match could be to her benefit.

There are several characters in ASOIAF who we are meant to dislike from the start, and then come to sympathise with. Examples of these are Jaime, Sansa, Sandor and to a degree Theon and Stannis. Sansa of AGOT comes across as an extremely naive teenage girl, Sandor as a rude, mean brute and Jaime as an arrogant murderer with no conscience. Theon starts out as unpleasant, goes straight into horrendous territory and then out again towards merely unpleasant and has entered the territory of regret. Stannis....is Stannis. I think he wins out by just being stubborn, but his arc starts very much as a villain, and only Davos seems to be his redeeming quality. Even Melisandre could be seen as a similar character.

Once we see characters unfolding in front of our eyes, we need to re-evaluate their actions. The classic one is of course Jaime killing Aerys Targaryen. How wrongly the honourable Ned Stark judged him for what was essentially a good action, since it saved thousands of lives, yet from Ned's point of view, Jaime was a despicable traitor. Both were right, in their own way of course, but once we get more information and a different perspective, we tend to go the way of Brienne and go from calling Jaime "Kingslayer" to calling him "Ser Jaime", if you get my point. It's easy to be judgemental.

Now, Tyrion on the other hand does an almost inverse journey, where we start off strongly sympathising with him, but as off ADWD, it's obvious he's a very dark shade of grey and has some really disturbing traits, does some extremely disturbing things and thinks some very, very disturbing thoughts.

Regarding Sansa in particular, she is interesting since she is one of the subtlest characters in the series. A lot of her development is understated, so easy to miss at first glance. It makes rereading her chapters the more interesting, I think.

[brashcandy]

Well I admit that I am biased, because Sansa has never been one of my favorite characters. I will (albeit perhaps painstakingly) read through the threads on rereading/rethinking Sansa.

I realize that horrible things have happened to her, and I can certainly empathize with her. However, she had very few possibilities of making real friends. I think that anyone would try to make polite conversation with others in her situation. I believe it may be a stretch to call such people 'friends' though. The drunken knight whose life she saved, Ser Dontos, later planned to rescue her. She showed him compassion, and he wanted to help her in return. Recall that she also thought of him as a knight from a fairy tale at the time.

As far as judging characters is concerned, she seems to not mind Littlefinger too much, although he's one of the worst people in the realm. Yes, he's very smooth and hides his true nature well, but Sansa seems to be reasonably comfortable around him, except when he's being sleezy, unless I misremember. She doesn't even seem to hate him for having Ser Dontos killed (ha, Arya would have added him to her list, no doubt!). With regard to her helping Robert, I was truly impressed by her interactions with him. However, she was kind of forced into the role of a nanny / big sister, and developed a relationship with him in the process. Her compassion for various individuals doesn't necessarily mean (to me) that she's changed her opinions on what kind of man she wants to marry (for her second marriage). She never even warmed up to Tyrion, who was very outwardly critical of his own kin, and treated her rather gently. In him, she could have had a great ally if she were truly on her way to becoming a 'player.'

Let's recall that Arya ended up taking the Hound off her hit list, and learning a lot about mercy from him. It's really interesting how the Hound makes a big impact on both sisters... but I digress. What I want to say is that I think people (yourself included based on your comment) are so captivated by Arya being a so-called bad-ass, that they really miss the fact that her arc had been incredibly similar to Sansa's, even though both sisters have a different approach to expressing their feelings and solving conflicts. Arya right now is with the Faceless men cult, which I see as being just as manipulative and self-serving as Littlefinger is. Both LF and the FM are simply skilled in different disciplines and they've been given two suitable mentors to mold into their image. Sansa, long held as a prisoner and pawn, is naturally attracted to learning how to play the game; and Arya, long fascinated with death and getting revenge over those who've done her wrong, is the perfect candidate for initiation into cult that trains one to deliver death.

P.S. Glad to hear you will at least tackle the Sansa re-read threads. I think one is badly needed for Arya.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

It's strange. I'm not one for being ethical, I don't mind characters being unfaithful or murderers. I love Dany and Robert, for example. Having said that, fuck Harry. I may be upset that Tyrion will lose his trophy wife (even though he "plans on living") But I actually feel bad for Sansa. I dislike Cersei but I see what a pig of a husband can do, however Cersei could play her husband like a lute so I see no reason why Sansa won't do the same (she did learn from Cersei as well, like Arya-Syrio) Anyways I decided I was being paranoid and that if Jon and Lord Robert were such tools then a fake Arryn must be awsome.

Untill I thought about his name Harry Hardyng

Harry Houdini had a brother named Hardeen...

So wtf! Sansa is going to marry a magician? So... So...So sketchy

[brashcandy]

Harry Hardyng just always makes me think of Harry Hard-on. Ughh, I think Sansa is better off without him.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Harry Hardyng just always makes me think of Harry Hard-on. Ughh, I think Sansa is better off without him.

Lol well at least it won't be hard for Sansa to woo him then. But if she aint gonna get married where does that leave her? Me, personally thinks she should marry him but off him on the wedding night (along with Roslin's and Jeyne's baby. That way Sansa can be queen of North, Riverlands, East!)

[Harle The Handsome]

One point worth questioning is who has the right to annul marriages conducted before the Old Gods? Marriages under the new tradition can be annulled by the High Septon, seemingly. But there's no such authority for the Old Gods. So how do such marriages get set aside? Would there be a process through civil law?

I don't think there would be a process through law, my suspicions are that vows freely made under a weirwood tree are for life. There might be some precedent for a king, or warden of the North, to set aside a marriage, but somehow I suspect recognition is based upon strength of those making the claim.

The Lady Hornwood events lead me to believe that claims are only as valid as those defending the claim. So, for example, if a woman wishes a divorce, she might renounce her vow and take up another husband, and whom she is married would be resolved by the two men (or their houses). This leads back to my previous statement about the north and recognition of the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa. If Sansa claims the mariiage was invalid because, first, it was never consumated and, second, not performed before a weirwood tree in accordance to the customs of the North, who would object? And should one object, good luck enforcing it.

[Harle The Handsome]

Possibly, but if the North is not its own kingdom, Sansa is married in the eyes of Gods and Men and as we know, the High Septon is not a biddable man. Further, if Sansa sets foot in Kings Landing, she is accused of regicide and on the run from justice, so that will hardly recommend her to the Faith.

It is one theory that if the North remains independent, she could return there and pretend the marriage to Tyrion never happened, but until the political situation is that stable, she cannot.

Your premise would be correct if this matter would be judged upon the rules and customs of the Seven. However, the North is of the Old Way. It strengthens the claim of the Old Gods, to rebuke the marriage of Tyrion and Sansa as a sham, and the North would be pleased by that outcome, both for their gods and Ned Stark's daughter.

And yes, I think the Northmen are perfectly happy throwing Sansa under the proverbial bus. Cat was depressed that Robb wanted Sansa disinherited. The Northmen in general seemed fine with it, and Stannis certainly can't stand the thought of Sansa Stark Lady Lannister inheriting Winterfell. She's lost to them, so they'll cut their losses and move on to Arya, who's married to a northman (albeit a disgusting one) and nearer to hand. I'm sure had Sansa turned up with Tyrion in tow to Winterfell, they would happily have lopped off Tyrion's head, but the Lannisters would be fools to ever let Sansa set foot in the north. In fact, it seems clear from Robb's reasoning that Tywin et al would keep Sansa as brood mare in the south, and only a child of Tyrion and Sansa would eventually be allowed to return north to claim Winterfell. It's even been debated whether Tywin's plans included 1-2 heirs off Sansa and then killing her off, since it would be simpler with her dead. Dead she poses no threat and has no claim.

I concede that there is some situational acceptance in the North for "throwing her under the bus," but it comes from the focal point of protecting the North. The people who agreed it was prudent to disinherit the wife of a Lannister would certainly rise to Sansa protection should the Lannisters challenge a marriage under the eyes of the Old Gods to a man she chose freely.

[Unhappy Starfish]

I think this all ties in with Littlefinger's plan to transform Sansa from a "piece" to a "player". He seems, outwardly at least (you always have to put his motives under some serious scrutiny), to want to raise Sansa up to a high enough position of power that she can be a strong player in the Game of Thrones. Personally, I think Sansa might become the queen from Cersei's prophecy (The younger, prettier queen). The would happen once the Alayne reveals herself as Sansa Stark, and the north might proclaim her Queen of the North, just as Robb was the king. As we know, the North remembers, so there's certainly a feeling there that would work well for Sansa should she gain control of the vale as well. This all conjecture, but I think it's certainly something to consider.