In defense of Sansa

[Child of the Forest]

I don't think that Daeana was specifically targeting you, but she did seem to countering the "Arya Apologists" that are prevalent on this board, and were on the old board before the "Great Migration" here (i didn't bother restoring my account here, but was lrking for a while....) I also would question the basis for Arya's exceptionalism: the best solution is that she is sui generis, a wunderkind by basis of authorial fiat.

Well, I am also a primary school teacher and I more or less agree Daeana. Although I teach in, I assume, a markedly better district than Daeana's, I did have to, you know, become educated in child psychology and development in order to get my license. I would concur with Daeana that with everything we know about Arya, she is simply a truly unrealistic child. I *suppose* you can say that she is a prodigy, 1 in 1,000,000, who can manifest her cognitive and problem solving skills at such an early age but that makes her very exceptional indeed, which seems to be the point.

Child psychology is almost entirely based on subjects in modern western subjects. (Psychology as a whole is a very immature social science - interesting, useful, but a long ways to go. That's a whole nother topic.) It doesn't prove something impossible for a child to do. Just exceptional.

She's execptional because GRRM made her so.

Exceptional, yes. One in a <pick your large number here>, no doubt. No one (reasonably) thinks Arya is not exceptional. The argument is whether she's fundamentally impossible, from what a human child can or cannot be. Daena asserts she is. I disagree.

If there are "Arya apologists" who think that she's a perfectly natural consequence of her background - that any child with her experiences could do what she's done - then I disagree with them too, probably even more strongly. I'm sure there are similarities with the arguments that they use to suggest her reactions as natural and the arguments I'm using to suggest that given that she's an exceptional child, her experiences have helped her get along this far, despite her childish mistakes.

The objection that she couldn't have possibly thought straight after killing the stable boy - sure it's remarkable, and if she hadn't been getting the mental discipline training from Syrio, I might have also rolled my eyes and said "yeah right". Was the training well developed in the book? Not as much as I'd have liked, honestly, but I can accept that not everything happens where we the readers can see it, and at least we'd seen it helping her keep calm in tight spots before, even if they were less serious than that one. And if I'd been Ned, having traveled with an adventurous child who'd disappeared for four days on the road, I'd have made damn sure that she knew that if she got separated again, there are some things that might help her make it back, so it's not that farfetched to me that she might be aware that some valuable little trinket might be of practical use when caught without adult help.

Because I'd seen enough of the groundwork, I was willing to accept this scene as evidence that she's exceptional - as part of her characterization. Not solely as the result of her previous characterization, but as an additional important facet of her persona. To me it's not just being impossibly exceptional "by authorial fiat". Obviously Martin's story only works if there is an exceptional child in that position, but she's no more impossible in my mind than Robb leading troops to war successfully.

[ina]

That's my point. People (often) say that Arya's wordliness and precociousness stem from the fact that she's been messed with by life, seen and been forced to do things that are beyond the ken of most children, irrespective of her noble upbringing.

"Worldliness" doesn't come from being messed with by life, most of the time. If anything, having a hard life could make a person more narrow-minded, just as being overly sheltered could do. Anyway, Arya has precious little worldliness. She's pretty selfish. Now practicality is more iffy. What type and level of practicality would probably depend on individual situations and many factors, I think, though it's certainly not proportional to suffering. I have no idea where people might get that idea from. When we say a hard life, that phrase is really too general to mean anything anyway.

Anyway, I mostly agree with Child of the Forest about Arya, though I'm not as good at explaining what I think. But besides that, for the most part, Arya's been really lucky. That luck is what's really been keeping her (relatively) safe, not her supposed practicality, which she really doesn't show too much of.

[HimOfTwoFaces]

Bringing us back to Sansa . . .

I've seen other people argue on this board (and the old one) that since Arya and Sansa grew up in the same environment, and since Sansa has shown herself to be less perceptive and proactive than her little sister, then Sansa must be an unusually stupid girl whose actions cannot be even partially explained by her youth and upbringing.

Whether you believe Arya to be unrealistic or not, I think everyone can agree that she's intended to be exceptional (unless you think Faceless Men hand out coins to every mildly clever 10-year-old girl they meet). From what I've heard, prodigies tend to happen in spite of their environment, so saying that Sansa is so-and-so because Arya would have done something different in her place seems silly.

[Child of the Forest]

Bringing us back to Sansa . . .

I've seen other people argue on this board (and the old one) that since Arya and Sansa grew up in the same environment, and since Sansa has shown herself to be less perceptive and proactive than her little sister, then Sansa must be an unusually stupid girl whose actions cannot be even partially explained by her youth and upbringing.

Whether you believe Arya to be unrealistic or not, I think everyone can agree that she's intended to be exceptional (unless you think Faceless Men hand out coins to every mildly clever 10-year-old girl they meet). From what I've heard, prodigies tend to happen in spite of their environment, so saying that Sansa is so-and-so because Arya would have done something different in her place seems silly.

Wonderful evidence that environment isn't everything, isn't it? Sansa and Arya just have very different outlooks on life, and so they learn from their experiences differently. Someone once posted that if Sansa and Arya switched places, they would both be dead, because Arya doesn't have what it takes to survive in court, nor Sansa what it takes to make it in the wild. I have to agree.

[Arthmail]

I find Arya to be a ludicrous character. I am also a primary school teacher who deals with children around Arya's age, some of whom are from horrible households. Arya is too wise and knowing and practical thinking for an eight year old. That's not even including her wealthy and pampered upbringing.

The part where Arya, having KILLED someone then rifles through her possessions to pack - needs a warm cloak and extra underwear, and a silver bracelet that she could sell - I find simply unbelievable. There is no way an eight year old, particularly one who has probably never even handled money, would think to start selling her possessions for money.

Arya is off topic for the moment, but i don't find her a ludicrous character. It depends on the individual entirely, and because your students are one way does not mean all of them are the same. Point in case. In Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada - were my parents reside, there was a case of a 12 year old girl and her twenty something boyfriend killing her family. Father, mother, and eight year old brother. He wielded the knife on the mother and father, but she helped to kill her little brother. Then, when the twenty something boyfriend fled the scene in a panic, she calmly collected items from around the house, including bank cards, took a taxi to a store, got some money, and then went to find her boyfriend. She had just helped murder her family, had wielded the knife herself, but was able to calmly and rationally think about what she was going to need.

Now of course 12 is not eight, but considering how much quicker children grew up in those times (some were married off by 12), it is not implausible at all. In fact, Arya is a very likely character.

[tzanth]

For example, had Arya been the daughter of a whore and lived in Flea Bottom, I would have no problem ascribing do her more of her feral survival instincts (but not all).

And yet they never required the same "pushing to learn a greater responsibility" of her sister? I don't dispute the fact that *all* of the children in the series have a greater understanding of the "coarseness" of life - they have seen naked adult women and men, have watched sex acts, all aware of the fact that meat is a butchered animal, etc..

I just don't see how that correlates to a nine year old child being able to kill a man in cold blood *then* not even think about it, but still have the presence of mind to prioritize her possessions, and then come up with an escape plan from a fortified castle - this is all still when she was Lady Arya Stark, not the disenfrachised wandering waif that she became later.

FWIW, I am in almost complete accord with your position. I can shut off my higher analyses and enjoy the ride, but it just peeves me to see people try and explain certain aspects away - i.e. Arya and her "maturity."

She's also seen her father hack people’s heads off on a regular basis and she has grown up in a culture where its not inherently wrong to kill someone of lesser birth.

I really don’t see anything necessarily unrealistic in Aryas actions. There are plenty of young children in the real world who have gone to extraordinary lengths to survive when horrific situations are thrust upon them. Child soldiers of all ages have fought and survived in wars throughout history. Children aren’t really any less intelligent then adults... Just less experienced. If anything youth makes one less connected to the importance of life and more ready to commit crimes such as murder without considering any consequences. I think this is very much the case with Arya.

[Kate Poem]

I don't like Sansa. I am sorry for all my faults in English.

One: she lied about Arya,Mycah, Nymeria and "prince" before Robert and his court. She cared more for Joffrey than her sister.

Two: she said many times bad things about and to Arya.

Three: she was thinking only about dresses, brave knights, ballads, HERSELF.

Four: she was completely delusional about Joff.

Five: she was completely blind - he loved TO KILL animals, he was whining coward etc. etc.

Six: she betrayed her father to Cersei.

I know, she was good for ser Dontos and little Nightingale, but she care for herself most. I am curious she will be defend little Robbie in any way? I don't think so.

[Gurkhal]

I must say that I disagree strongely.

One: she lied about Arya,Mycah, Nymeria and "prince" before Robert and his court. She cared more for Joffrey than her sister.

No she didn't lie. She said that she didn't remember which isn't all that strange considering that she was drawn before almost the entire court and put under alot of pressure. Hell, Robert himself even knew that Joffrey was lying and still he caved in to Cersei. Robert is the one I put the blame on for that episode.

Two: she said many times bad things about and to Arya.

They're siblings and very unlike each other. Siblings can be very cruel to each other without there being, as far as I know about, any specific evil to their character.

Three: she was thinking only about dresses, brave knights, ballads, HERSELF.

That's what is expected from her and what her duty as a woman to her family means. She's just happened to make it work for her.

Four: she was completely delusional about Joff.

Her delusion ended with Robert's life and before that her only case of complain agaisnt Joffrey's treatment would've been that he wasn't nice to her when he'd been savaged by Arya's wolf.

Five: she was completely blind - he loved TO KILL animals, he was whining coward etc. etc.

When did she see this? What examples of this before Eddard's execution did she have to witness this in action? He was attacked by a freaking direwolf while still a teen? How many people would just brushed it off with a laugh? I agree that she should probably have soured a fair bit against Cersei after Lady was killed, but that's a different story.

Six: she betrayed her father to Cersei.

That she did, although since Eddard served his own head on a silver plate along with a fine array of topings and side-dishes I wouldn't put it on her fault that Eddard committed suicide by Cersei. Secondly it probably wouldn't have helped if Eddard told Sansa that he was in "strained relation" with Cersei rather than just that they were going home.

I know, she was good for ser Dontos and little Nightingale, but she care for herself most. I am curious she will be defend little Robbie in any way? I don't think so.

Everyone cares for themselves mostly. And have you noticed about just how annoying Sweetrobin is? I can't stand him for three pages while Sansa shows an almost inhuman patience and kindness to him. I think you are selling her way to short.

[zuziako]

I must say that I disagree strongely. No she didn't lie. She said that she didn't remember which isn't all that strange considering that she was drawn before almost the entire court and put under alot of pressure. Hell, Robert himself even knew that Joffrey was lying and still he caved in to Cersei. Robert is the one I put the blame on for that episode.

Not only that, she actually did the only smart thing she could considering she was to later marry the prince. If she had told the truth, Joff and the Queen (her future mother in law) would hate her and her life would have turned into living hell. It later did anyway, but she couldn't have known that.

[starki]

I dislike her because she's the weakest character in the book. Taking sides against her family in the butcher boy situation, being Joffrey's pawn, and now being LF's pawn.

[The Others Take You]

I dislike her because she's the weakest character in the book. Taking sides against her family in the butcher boy situation, being Joffrey's pawn, and now being LF's pawn.

Kind-of makes you wonder what she'd do when she gets to make decisions on her own, eh?

I think Sandor was accurate when he told Sansa she was a Parrot who says Pretty Things and believes in songs and fairy tales. That's what she was, perhaps partly due to her Septa filling her head with stories of knights and maidens and how ladies should act. She merely fit in with the gender roles of the Westeros society, and, yes, she was selfish. But then, she was, what? 11, 12, 13 years old? Teens typically don't have a huge capacity to empathize with other people. That's a fact. I believe she's matured in the later books. She's seen enough bloodshed, and I think she's even aware that she's played a part in it, and that has made her forget her fairy tale dreams and live in reality. She's still somewhat of a Parrot at the moment, though (I think because it's the only survival skill she knows thus far.)

She'll grow up well, I think. Although, I do agree that her direwolf dying is not a good foreshadowing...

[Color Slander]

I'm not sure I agree that Sansa's story is one of pure selfishness. It is self centered, but then again, Sansa is in a position of political enemies and survival, it only makes sense that she's focusing on herself and getting herself out of what is essentially shark filled waters. But other than that I always believed there was a certain amount of empathy for the Hound, culminating with her reaching out to touch his face when he was crying. She spoke up to save Ser Dontos, which is no small feat considering her position in Joff's eyes and the certain reprisal that could be expected. When King's Landing was going through war and the danger of it being overrun and her being killed was pretty much a sure thing, it was her and not Cersei that stayed behind to comfort the scared women at court despite the fact that she wanted nothing to do but run and hide. And although Sansa isn't fond of him, she's pretty much playing the surrogate mother to Robert Arryn, and spends a lot of the book trying to clean him up and look politically representable for their descent downward.

I think with her and Arya, it's important that they both say "I'd miss them, even Sansa/Arya" and both espouse dislike for each other. Their dislike is mutual and not because they are terrible people, it's because they inherently can't understand each other. They don't know why they do the things they do and that causes friction when they see something they disagree with. There is nothing wrong with Sansa's dreams of femininity and her enjoying dresses, but Arya sees it was stupid. The same with Arya's "masculinity" (at least in Westeroes tradition). femininity and masculinity are not subordinate to each other and I think people like to ignore that.

Nor do I fault her with her attitude towards Tyrion. She doesn't trust him. That's the first smart thing she's ever done. We know to trust Tyrion because of the book. But Sansa's knows he kind of nice, but Joffery was also nice and he lopped off her father's head after promising mercy. This is King's Landing, not Winterfell, she just had a political marriage, she knows what it means, it means a grab for power and that's pretty much as low as you can go for Sansa, who does at this time have respect for Winterfell. Sansa's a bit cold, but she's dutiful, and that's exactly how she survives. Of course Sansa's got to be emotionally closed off after having lost the best way to gain her freedom from the Lannisters, only to be married to another one of them.

She's made piss-poor mistakes, and I don't think anyone should try and rationalize them beyond the fact that she was dumb and young. But I also think that dumb and young is overcome through experience and that's what she is gaining.

[brashcandy]

Except Lysa Arryn never actually _wanted_ to rule, while Cersei does. Lysa wants her _son_ to rule, and never mentions him ruling beyond the Vale. She likes her little hidey-hole there too much.

I never understood the Sansa-hate either. Yeah, she did some stupid things, but at least they weren't done out of hate or evil, but rather for misguided trust and love. I mean, if people can forgive Jaime Lannister his crimes (which I can't), done in full knowledge of what they were, and also done as an adult, I think they should be more than capable of forgiving Sansa her girlish foolishness. I know she betrayed her father and later herself, but she wasn't to know that a) she was doing so and that in doing so, she was setting into motion the fall of her family. I compare it to Oberyn Martell and his "Baelor Breakwind" comment. Nobody blames him for Elia's death, the war, etc. because as a child he made a rude nickname. Indirectly he may be responsible in a "for want of a horseshoe nail" sense, but he, and Sansa, can't be held responsible for the evil machinations of others.

I for one am very eager to see what happens to Sansa, because I think she has it in her to become a great and just ruler, if she's allowed to. Meaning that if she was being raised by Eddard Stark, she'd have her natural goodness and compassion nutured. Instead she's spent her puberty with the likes of Lannisters and Littlefinger, and I'm afraid that she hasn't learned enough to be able to see Littlefinger for what he is, and to stand up to him. I fear that he'll make her into another Cersei, mistrustful, hateful, and conniving. I want her to still be good when she and the Hound meet up again, which they will do, right? Right?

Yes, most definitely They have to meet up!

[zuziako]

They HAVE to!

[DaBillmann]

hmmm lets see:she betrayed Eddard

she dont likes jon

she is just like her stupid mother

she dont like arya

SHE BETRAYED EDDARD

sansa is one of charachters I hate most.I cant see her become anti-cersei I can see her become cersei.oh,and littlefingers whore.she deserve no more.I can never, never forget her betraying of Eddard.I would sooner forget gregor clegane all his crimes then her.what strike me most when I was first reading asoiaf was in her chapter when joffrey is leading her to show her hers fathers head.and when she saw it she just never care less.I would kill myself knowing that my father lost his head because of me and she was just... bored.but when she told her she is stupid she thought"oh no my prince dont like me anymore".

I hope she will die screaming.

Uhm the bit about her not caring about seeing Eddards head is grossly unfair. In that scene, she HAD to push down her hooror. Partly to not give thjat little fuckwad Joffry the satisfaction of seeing her freak, AND for her won sanity. It's clear Sansa loved her father very much, I I think if she had allowed herself to TRULY experiencethat seen it would havedestroyed her, and once again, Joffry and Cercei would have won.

Really, shedoes soem grossly stupid things in the books, and at tiems early on is a shallow self centered brat, but this level of hatred for her over the thigns you mentioend, sorry, does not seem justifiable to me, much as I respect your right to your feeligns and opinions.

[haaruk]

Sansa's development seems to be the most realistic of all Eddard's children. Her self projection and concept of her environment has become very compelling. Her greatest gift is her natural empathy initially subdued by an acquired sense of privilege and style. She has become the great compromiser in order to survive. She is learning the Great Game in the hands (literally) of a master. I said her greatest gift is empathy and with it she has the ability to nurture and strengthen. Her gentleness and persistence is strengthening sweetrobin in unexpected ways. The weak,pathetic child is getting stronger. The connection between Sansa and Sweetrobin is getting stronger. She has learned from Catelyn. The symbolism became most predictive when Sweetrobin and Sansa crossed the open stone 'bridge' together during their descent from The Eyrie. Her solicitude of Robin may be the knife that creates the wedge between Sansa and her ambitious protector.

Perhaps she will be the Queen in Cersei's dream.

haaruk

[Michael Stephen Bell Jr.]

I would suppose my own personal apathy towards Sansa is her either inability or unwillingness to see the world around her as it really is, and the fact that so many of the characters that are about her age or far younger are much better able to adapt to the reality of the situation. Her blindness to the true nature of Joffery until Ned was beheaded is one very obvious example, when every other character in the book saw the boy for what he really was after mere moments. This blindness to reality is what helped kill her father, though perhaps she inherited it from Ned as he seemed pretty blind at moments too.

[Raksha the Demon]

I'm not sure that I would have been any less blind at the age of eleven, if I had a crush on a boy who seemed to be the essence of everything desirable, a handsome boy who was also the heir to the throne. I wouldn't have done an end-run around my father the way Sansa did, but I had a much closer relationship with my father than Sansa did with Ned, although obviously they loved each other.

We don't know that every other character in the book saw Joffrey for what he was; only the viewpoint characters, most of whom were adults. And Sansa seems to grow up fairly quickly in terms of perception after Ned's death. The way she reacts to and observes Tyrion during their wedding night shows a girl who is is growing up, confused about the mechanics of sex, caught between marital duty and her horror of bedding a Lannister who is also a physically grotesque dwarf, and some fairly mature self-awareness. She understands that Tyrion is hungry for her, wants something fiercely, and also that she feels pity for him, pity which is death to desire. She remembers her Septa's teachings and actually tries to see physical beauty in Tyrion, but cannot, and cannot, will not feign lust that she does not feel.

Sansa is one of the more observant and empathic characters in the novels. She tries to be kind to the terrified Lollys Stokeworth when those around them are frightened and annoyed with Lollys' recalcitrance. During the attack on King's Landing, Sansa helps the injured Lancel Lannister, after his cousin Queen Cersei has abandoned him and the rest of her court - and Sansa is also mature enough to feel an emotional dichotomy there, thinking that she should be killing Lannisters, not helping one. There's also the matter of her saving Dontos' life, at risk to her own, by thinking on her feet and manipulating Joffrey into sparing the drunken knight. Sansa does not delude herself that Dontos is a parfit gentle knight, but he is the only lifeline she's got, especially after she's married to Joffrey and the Tyrells drop her; after which she still feels sorry for Margaery.

It remains to be seen whether Sansa can outfox the master of foxes himself, Littlefinger; or if she will instead become as bad as he is or worse, or simply have some moments of cunning and some good luck and manage to stop him while saving herself.