Last of the Unsullied?

[DavosBolton]

For centuries, only the 8 Great Slaver families of Astapor have trained Unsullied. Now that they are dead, does this mean no new Unsullied will be trained?

Astapor was said to be the only place that trained those deadly legionnaires. I doubt a group from another city could produce such stellar slave soldiers, otherwise Astapor would not have had a monopoly on Unsullied for so long.

If one was bent on ambitious conquest, having a core army of Unsullied would be a dream come true.

They would fight to the last man, obey without question. They won't rape or needlessly harm civilians of a besieged city. Also, they won't take any plunder or demand lordships, leaving even more profits to the commander.

Imagine if the Tyrell/Redwyne force had Unsullied at the siege of Dragonstone. Loras Tyrell wouldn't have needed to constantly lead the attack in person in order to inspire his men and he wouldn't have been grievously wounded.

The Unsullied would assault the keep without needing a commander to lead by example. All Loras had to do was snap his fingers and the keep would have fallen.

The Unsullied would not betray their master. It's too bad if that was indeed the last batch ever made.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's too bad if that was indeed the last batch ever made.

Considering how they're made and trained, I'd say it's not bad at all if Dany's batch is the last one ever.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Yeah. Too bad one of the most horrific examples of slavery in the ASoIaF universe came to end. :rolleyes:

[DavosBolton]

None can deny the prowess and value of the Unsullied. There was certainly a demand for them throughout the centuries.

If anyone chooses to ignore the outstanding military value of the Unsullied and choose instead to focus on the morality of training Unsullied, it needs to be said that in the grand scheme of things, having Unsullied will certainly limit the harm done to the vast civilian population of Westeros.

The last thing sellsword companies or even feudal levies care about is the dignity of women and other civilians.

Here is the summary of an exchange between Jorah Mormont and his Queen:

"He tells her that she must win Westeros as Aegon the Dragon with steel and dragon-fire, which will mean blood on her hands. When she talks about the 8,000 Unsullied represent 8,000 puppies and babies, Ser Jorah points out that when King's Landing was sacked there were dead babies, rapes and burning. The Unsullied will not sack, rape or kill without her direction."

[Starfell]

I'm sure that they are the last batch, not that I'm sorry about that.

Of course, if someone really wanted to and knew the recipe for that anti-pain wine of theirs then they could manage it, the training process was evidently no secret and there are plenty of people in the ASoIaF universe with the adequate lack of scruples to pull off training a new bunch. Although they'd probably have to pass through a few cohorts before they managed to produce any as "high quality" as the Astapori. In fact, I'm sure that if Dany had turned her back on Slaver's Bay for a couple of minutes rather than settling in Meereen, then there would have been new Unsullied within a few years; if I recall correctly, the Astapori were already trying to train new ones before the Yunkai'i destroyed the city.

But hopefully Dany's long term impact on Slaver's Bay will be such that nobody ever manages to train any more

[David Selig]

Let me guess - this will evolve into a "The Astapor slavers weren't actually evil" thread.

[danm_999]

"He tells her that she must win Westeros as Aegon the Dragon with steel and dragon-fire, which will mean blood on her hands. When she talks about the 8,000 Unsullied represent 8,000 puppies and babies, Ser Jorah points out that when King's Landing was sacked there were dead babies, rapes and burning. The Unsullied will not sack, rape or kill without her direction."

Here's the rub. You can still order the Unsullied to do all these things. They'll only act as nobly as their commander or master, and anybody who would seek to own Unsullied and use them to capture cities already strikes me as pretty morally problematic, given how they're made.

And they still need to be made. So all that nasty killing and sacking and raping is occuring.

[Foxhound]

Let's be clear, the eight thousand Unsullied that were ready for purchase represent tens of thousands of children murdered in the process of making them.

As for the Unsullied reducing harm, well the damage caused to Westeros by war so far hasn't really been by soldiers run amok. Hell a city hasn't even been sacked yet, never mind against the wishes of any commander. Instead most of the violence against civilians has been deliberate and ordered. It's been a mix of foraging, aka stealing from peasants to feed the army (which the Unsullied would also have to do), and intentional economic warfare, from burning crops and villages to killing off the peasants. Having Unsullied around wouldn't change that. Instead, their presence would just enable another round of fighting, which means more suffering.

[DavosBolton]

Let me make this clear, the slavers are definitely evil.

However, any commander can see the extraordinary military value of the Unsullied. Future commanders will desire some for their army, as past commanders have shown a constant demand for Unsullied throughout the centuries.

Even though the Slavers are evil, and the training of Unsullied is undoubtedly cruel, the end result of using Unsullied rather than normal soldiers could end up being beneficial for besieged civilian population.

I just brought that point up because people just dismiss the training of Unsullied out of hand without regard to what Jorah said to Dany.

Are the slavers being cruel when training Unsullied? Certainly.

Could there be a demand for more Unsullied? certainly.

Would using Unsullied reduce the harm done to civilians of countries at war? For sure.

[Lion of Judah]

We totally needed more mutilated children and murdered babies. What was Dany thinking intervening in a culture she didn't understand?

:bs:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't think anyone is denying that the Unsullied are, as a military force, attractive. What we're saying — at least, what I'm saying — is that their prowess and quality as a fighting force is not worth the horrific circumstances involved in producing them.

I'm also skeptical that using them can "reduce the harm done to civilians of countries at war," given that 1. civilians in Westeros have been hurt at least in some circumstances because guys like Tywin ordered it done (read: it's not always random or collateral), and 2. the owner of the Unsullied could easily say, "Go and wipe out this civilian population" and the Unsullied would do it. Yes they do what they're told, but that cuts both ways — you could just as easily order them commit a pretty atrocious war crime.

We totally needed more mutilated children and murdered babies. What was Dany thinking intervening in a culture she didn't understand?

To be fair, I think Dany's an idiot and I still don't buy this guy's premise.

[Lord Boltons flaying knife]

Here's the rub. You can still order the Unsullied to do all these things. They'll only act as nobly as their commander or master, and anybody who would seek to own Unsullied and use them to capture cities already strikes me as pretty morally problematic, given how they're made.

And they still need to be made. So all that nasty killing and sacking and raping is occuring.

Eh, how are they gonna rape anyone?

[straits]

The Unsullied. They're 'free', of course. Given that they have been taught only to follow orders and fight, they can conveniently serve Dany, without the pesky moral dilemma of being a slave-owner!

Like she needed that on top of her fat lizards.

[Foxhound]

That assumes that another commander of the Unsullied is interested in reducing harm to civilians. Considering they're an army of slaves made by barbaric means, what are the odds of that? Instead, since they're a more effective fighting force, they will be able to cause more suffering to a greater number of people.

Hell, even when Dany is commanding the Unsullied, "Meereen had been sacked savagely, as new-fallen cities always were, but Dany was determined that should end now that the city was hers." She then uses the Unsullied to restore order afterwards, but the initial devastation was still done.

[Éadaoin]

Eh, how are they gonna rape anyone?

Isn't that a bit like saying a woman can't be a rapist? :dunno:

[DavosBolton]

I don't think anyone is denying that the Unsullied are, as a military force, attractive. What we're saying — at least, what I'm saying — is that their prowess and quality as a fighting force is not worth the horrific circumstances involved in producing them.

This is where I disagree. To create those 10 000 Unsullied, you sacrificed 10 000 babies, 10 000 puppies and 10 000 manhood.

If Westeros has 40 million people like what Ran said, and they have 10 000 Unsullied running around conquering cities through Westeros, I think there would certainly be 30 000 less people dead or raped from wanton lust/bloodlust. Even Jaime said that soldiers that are "good people at home" can do those things after a battle when their blood is roused.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is where I disagree. To create those 10 000 Unsullied, you sacrificed 10 000 babies, 10 000 puppies and 10 000 manhood.

If Westeros has 40 million people like what Ran said, and they have 10 000 Unsullied running around conquering cities through Westeros, I think there would certainly be 30 000 less people dead or raped from wanton lust/bloodlust. Even Jaime said that soldiers that are "good people at home" can do those things after a battle when their blood is roused.

I'm sorry but I find this premise to be pretty morally horrific.

ETA: And considering how many boys no doubt "flunk out of" (read: die during) the training program, I'd say you're talking a hell of a lot more than 10,000 deaths per 10,000 finished units.

[camelcant]

As you mention, this is the last of the Unsullied. Dany has a limited force of elite soldiers that cannot be replaced. Each murder by the Harpy and every battle she decides to join reduces the strength of her main force. If she is routed in one battle, she has nothing. 8000 spears is terribly weak compared to the 30,000 swords that Dorne probably has, reserves in the Reach (estimated elsewhere) and armies in the Vale. Her Unsullied could turn the tide of a critical battle but there aren't enough to realistically last through a couple of large battles.

Rape and murder are smaller concerns when the Unsullied are merely a segment of a field army. She needs sellswords and allies to stand a chance against any major house.

[straits]

Isn't that a bit like saying a woman can't be a rapist? :dunno:

I would not think so. A lot of the sexual element is taken out for men if there is no penis. They can't feel erotic pleasure. Committing rape by eunuchs is an exceedingly complicated task given that there is no personal motivation for the soldier, and no personal intimate invasion of the victim body by genitalia. They could 'rape' someone with an object, but we do not have to go there.

[danm_999]

Eh, how are they gonna rape anyone?

Without getting too graphic or specific, there are things people can use as stand ins for a penis.