Masamune Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 In this situation the analogy of Hitler is often used; I think (hope) we all agree that Hitler was a truly evil person who did some terrible things in his life. BUT he was, apparently, a great lover of animals and disliked bringing harm to them. In that sense he could be considered to have some good in him.I'd argue there's a world of difference between Hitler the man, and Hitler the caricature of evil. That difference being that he lost the war. History is written by the victors and all that.We don't need to look for some 'pet the dog' moment to argue moral relativity. What about the steps he took to overturn the socioeconomic crisis that was (unfairly) inflicted on Germany after WW1? What about the order, unity, and pride he restored to the German people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 I'd argue there's a world of difference between Hitler the man, and Hitler the caricature of evil. That difference being that he lost the war. History is written by the victors and all that.We don't need to look for some 'pet the dog' moment to argue moral relativity. What about the steps he took to overturn the socioeconomic crisis that was (unfairly) inflicted on Germany after WW1? What about the order, unity, and pride he restored to the German people?Dangerous area. He did all that to prepare for a war of aggression (and extermination). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Storm King Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 there arent any truly evil people around..except The Boltons...and the Freys....and Gregor Clegane....and perhaps Qyburn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Winter Roses Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 I guess we don't really know what Coldhands is, but my initial thought was that he's some kind of 'nice Other'. If that is the case, the Others might not be pure evil? Really don't know at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Storm King Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 I guess we don't really know what Coldhands is, but my initial thought was that he's some kind of 'nice Other'. If that is the case, the Others might not be pure evil? Really don't know at this point.coldhands was a wight not an other..still its unclear how he was able to keep in control and not become a mindless zombie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masamune Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Dangerous area. He did all that to prepare for a war of aggression (and extermination).Hitler's goal was to recreate the German Empire. He wouldn't be the first imperialist leader to make a political scapegoat of an ethnic group. Does this mean the Romans were evil for the genocidal destruction and enslavement of the Carthaginians? Why does history not paint them as such, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightSpectra Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Hitler's goal was to recreate the German Empire. He wouldn't be the first imperialist leader to make a political scapegoat of an ethnic group. Does this mean the Romans were evil for the genocidal destruction and enslavement of the Carthaginians? Why does history not paint them as such, then?Hitler's goal was to exterminate the Jewish people, in addition to world conquest.I'm pretty sure moralizing the Romans and the Carthaginians is something that nobody in the past century has done. They're both pretty deplorable cultures.Your argument is really going nowhere.there arent any truly evil people around..except The Boltons...and the Freys....and Gregor Clegane....and perhaps Qyburn"Truly evil" has still yet to be defined. Avatars of evil or just irredeemably bad people, I would say applies to none of them save maybe Gregor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbstark Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 I'd argue there's a world of difference between Hitler the man, and Hitler the caricature of evil. That difference being that he lost the war. History is written by the victors and all that.We don't need to look for some 'pet the dog' moment to argue moral relativity. What about the steps he took to overturn the socioeconomic crisis that was (unfairly) inflicted on Germany after WW1? What about the order, unity, and pride he restored to the German people?Did he though?From my understanding the legacy of Hitler is a sense of shame and guilt rather than pride...someone else mentioned it though, maybe drop the Hitler comparison now? I can't see this ending well... "Truly evil" has still yet to be defined. Avatars of evil or just irredeemably bad people, I would say applies to none of them save maybe Gregor.it's a good point, maybe rather than "truly evil" we could talk about lack of redeemable qualities? as far as we know, what are Ramsey's Gregor's or Qyburns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightSpectra Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Redeemable qualities and redeemable are different altogether."Redeemable qualities" means you're overlooking their evils because of something important about them. For example, Gregor's loyalty, or Qyburn's FOR SCIENCE attitude."Redeemable" means that a character would repent of all of the wickedness he has done and turn over a new leaf. Most people would argue that Jaime is currently on a redemption arc, for instance. Whether or not people like Ramsay are even capable of redemption is wholly dependent on his "mental illness". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 it's a good point, maybe rather than "truly evil" we could talk about lack of redeemable qualities? as far as we know, what are Ramsey's Gregor's or Qyburns?Without excusing there evil deeds:Ramsay: Fucked up childhood (Child born from rape, nurtured on hatred and a sense of entitlement by his mother and his servant, shun by his father and the outside world). On top of that he has the Boltons family heritage dragging him down.Gregor: Crippling headaches, drug abuse and the fact that he’s a fucking giant (I mean every archer probably takes a shot at him, every guy who wants to make a name for himself goes after him). His father probably pushed him to the brink at an early age (Seeing that Sandor killed a guy when he was twelve) and praised him for his fowl deeds. Qyburn: Mad scientist, cast out by his brothers, forced to live with a bunch off vile misfits.On top of that they are all really fucked up people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gash Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 I've seen lots of interviews with GRRM, and he says that nothing in the asoiaf universe is purely good or purely evil.If that's true, what is good about The Others?The good/evil balance is about that every character has their own sets of morals, and that their actions is based on that. But the others doesn't seem to show any mercy, or have thoughts.I might have missed something, and would appreciate if you could clearify.I've read up to the end of A storm of swords, so please, no spoilers beyond that.the others were once children of the forest who disagreed with other children of the forest as to allowing men into westeros. they broke away, fought against their brothers and the men and left to go north where they became cold and swore revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbstark Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Redeemable qualities and redeemable are different altogether."Redeemable qualities" means you're overlooking their evils because of something important about them. For example, Gregor's loyalty, or Qyburn's FOR SCIENCE attitude."Redeemable" means that a character would repent of all of the wickedness he has done and turn over a new leaf. Most people would argue that Jaime is currently on a redemption arc, for instance. Whether or not people like Ramsay are even capable of redemption is wholly dependent on his "mental illness".Yes I do agree on this. Just like Cersei loving her children does not wipe out her cruelty and redeem her, while jaime as you said, IS on a redemption arc. I was wondering if by grey characters GRRM was referring to these "redeemable qualities" that don't actually necessarily put the character on said redemption arc, but manage to paint them in *some* (limited) positive light.<snip>@ Veltigar: yes, I think you're on to something, especially with Gregor, considering what little we know of him, there seems to be some rhyme and reason to his acts (however abhorrent) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Masamune Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Hitler's goal was to exterminate the Jewish people, in addition to world conquest.Exterminating the untermensch (it wasn't just the Jews affected by Nazism, y'know) was a means to an end, it wasn't the endgame itself. Arguing that Hitler wanted to "conquer the world" just proves the point about stereotyping. Hitler wasn't a Bond villain. A power-hungry expansionist, maybe, but not a Bond villain.I'm pretty sure moralizing the Romans and the Carthaginians is something that nobody in the past century has done. They're both pretty deplorable cultures.Because the Romans won, that's why. The same way America conveniently forgets the genocide it committed against the Native Americans while shaking its finger at ze Germans. Only difference being that no one managed to stop their final solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towerofjoy Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 Well, we can get on a couch and analyze Gregor and Ramsey -- except they would rape you, beat you and bash your head in. That's evil in my book -- and grounds for removal from society before more victims and sadists are created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mailedhorseman Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 What GRRRM possibly meant was that no HUMAN character is purely evil or purely good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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