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yolkboy

Sapphires = Secrets

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I think your basic question was addressed earlier in the thread, but as for Lem... Don't you think it would be horribly jarring for him to have a sapphire? That is to say, not every secret must have a sapphire, but every sapphire has its secret ;)

Nice :) But if The George did intend to hint at secrets by using a sapphire, wouldn't he have done so every time? It seems like a few of the examples in the OP are a bit of a stretch--to me anyway.I got into this while pondering the significance of Tobho Mott's sapphire, which I can't quite fathom...

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Hey Yolkboy and J. Stargaryen, You need to update with ol' One Eye Aemond.

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Nice :) But if The George did intend to hint at secrets by using a sapphire, wouldn't he have done so every time? It seems like a few of the examples in the OP are a bit of a stretch--to me anyway.I got into this while pondering the significance of Tobho Mott's sapphire, which I can't quite fathom...

Well, I kind of figured since I knew you had Tobho on your mind ;)

I think in the OP it attributes his secret to Gendry, because that's not speculative. Of course he also apparently has the secret of forging colored steel, and apparently of working Valyrian steel. If he is indeed Izembaro (an idea that fascinates me, btw) that's another (and rather huge) secret. But his giant gem could be glamour related too as you speculated in SQ ... I know yolkboy wrote about gems and glamours in his S+B=M thread with rubies. Perhaps he'll have some ideas about that :)

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Five knights of the Kingsguard—all but Ser Jaime and Ser Barristan—were arrayed in a crescent around the base of the throne. They were in full armor, enameled steel from helm to heel, long pale cloaks over their shoulders, shining white shields strapped to their left arms. Cersei Lannister and her two younger children stood behind Ser Boros and Ser Meryn. The queen wore a gown of sea-green silk, trimmed with Myrish lace as pale as foam. On her finger was a golden ring with an emerald the size of a pigeon’s egg, on her head a matching tiara. - Eddard XIV


Now, compare this to the description of the sapphire that Tobho Mott is wearing when he is visited by Ned: “He wore a black velvet coat with hammers embroidered on the sleeves in silver thread, Around his neck was a heavy silver chain and a sapphire as large as a pigeon’s egg.”



It's interesting because, in both cases, the wearers of the gems are hiding quasi-royal bastards. Royalty is often associated with the color blue; e.g., blue blood. Which makes sense since Gendry is the son of King Robert. So, he has royal blood, though he is not royalty himself due to his bastardy. Joffrey, on the other hand, is the bastard son of the Queen consort. Neither is Cersei royal. So there is an interesting parallel there.



We know that "egg" can be used as a sort of code for hiding someone's true identity, via the Dunk and Egg stories. Though the nickname Egg doesn't so much hide little Prince Aegon, he does shave his head and tuck away his Targaryen ring in order to keep his identity a secret. So that is definitely a theme, and one I think we are seeing reinforced in the above examples.



There is an emerald equivalent to Tobho Mott's sapphire; i.e., "pigeon's egg." Quoted from my Emeralds thread.


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There is an emerald equivalent to Tobho Mott's sapphire; i.e., "pigeon's egg." Quoted from my Emeralds thread.

Thanks. I appreciate that analysis.

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made with J. Stargaryen

With every single mention of sapphires in the books, there is a hidden secret, relevant to that scene. This thread looks at all of them.

Sapphires = Secret

A Game of Thrones

LORAS:

"His sapphires winked in the sun as he raised his visor, smiling. The commons went mad for him."

Loras presents himself as the paragon of chivary, and the secret here is that he is engaging in gamesmanship by riding a "mare on heat" in the jousting lists, to distract his opponents horses.

Example of relevance: Loras is pretending to be honourable in the scene. The sapphire secret is that he's cheating. So the secret is relevant to this particular scene - which is the pattern that makes this so interesting. It's not random secrets.

LORAS:

"The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats"

This is another regarding that Loras' deception - but this time there's an added R+L=J catch. "Blue of the flowers" being linked to sapphires seems like a nod to the Jon Snow secret. Unsurprisingly, Ned is mentioned just before the flowers - he's keeping the secret.

The connection to Jon seems a bit too attenuated. And I don't think Lora was technically cheating, was he? In any event Loras secret is his sexual orientation. You can stop there, no?

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The connection to Jon seems a bit too attenuated. And I don't think Lora was technically cheating, was he? In any event Loras secret is his sexual orientation. You can stop there, no?

I don't agree. Sapphires + blue of the flowers is a pretty strong connection to Jon.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness...

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Are then any characters whom you would be surprised to see associated with a sapphire?

Lysa was wearing sapphires and moonstones, the colors of House Arryn.

Virtually every character in ASOIAF has a secret. None, any, or all of them could be wearing a sapphire.

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Is there any other hint anywhere in the text that Symeon was an Other or a wight?

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Is there any other hint anywhere in the text that Symeon was an Other or a wight?

Not directly.

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Not directly.

Does this theory fail if Symeon is not an Other or a Wight?

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Does this theory fail if Symeon is not an Other or a Wight?

No. Just some other secret.

I think there is more going on with the sapphires than just secrets myself, but it's hard to nail it down. I definitely think there is something to the 'secret identities' idea.

We didn't really get into the Sapphire Isle stuff much, but I don't think it is a coincidence that the sigil of House Tarth is suns and crescent moons quartered. The sun and moon themselves hinting at something to do with Jon Snow, I think. You've seen Schmendrick's R+L=Lightbringer thread, right? If not, start here, but scroll down until The Sun's Son heading. When you consider his theory, this one, the name "Sapphire Isle" + the sigil of House Tarth, it all fits neatly with my Emeralds thread. I discuss the sapphires and rubies, too, as I believe they all tie together in an interesting way.

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Yolkboy, you seem to have forgotten one occurence of "sapphires"



In AFFC I came upon this (see below) and wanted to know what you had to say about it but it's not in your list



In Brienne second chapter



She's being fooled by a "fool", a dwarf she takes for a holy brother and who makes her believe he is and tell her the story of this "Nimble dick". Is martin hinting at a metaphorical rape of Brienne.



She doesn't realise she is being fooled and strangely enough she thinks of the time when Jaime saved her from being physicaly raped.



Rorge and shagwell would have raped her a hundred times if ser Jaime had not told them she was worth her weight in sapphires.


"My lady? you look sad. Are you thinking of your sister? The dwarf patted her on her hand. The crone will light your way to her, never fear. The maiden will keep her safe."



I think sapphires here dismiss the truth of what the Dwarf says, he doesn't have a clue where Sansa is he's only interested in Breinne's money. And moreover they reinforce this idea that Brienne is in fact taken advantage of by the dwarf who is so blatantly a crook. His devotion is too much to be sincere.




So it makes one more occurence of sapphires, is it 27 then? 26?


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Yolkboy, you seem to have forgotten one occurence of "sapphires"

In AFFC I came upon this (see below) and wanted to know what you had to say about it but it's not in your list

In Brienne second chapter

She's being fooled by a "fool", a dwarf she takes for a holy brother and who makes her believe he is and tell her the story of this "Nimble dick". Is martin hinting at a metaphorical rape of Brienne.

She doesn't realise she is being fooled and strangely enough she thinks of the time when Jaime saved her from being physicaly raped.

Rorge and shagwell would have raped her a hundred times if ser Jaime had not told them she was worth her weight in sapphires.

"My lady? you look sad. Are you thinking of your sister? The dwarf patted her on her hand. The crone will light your way to her, never fear. The maiden will keep her safe."

I think sapphires here dismiss the truth of what the Dwarf says, he doesn't have a clue where Sansa is he's only interested in Breinne's money. And moreover they reinforce this idea that Brienne is in fact taken advantage of by the dwarf who is so blatantly a crook. His devotion is too much to be sincere.

So it makes one more occurence of sapphires, is it 27 then? 26?

Oh all the ones pertaining to Jaime's lie about the 'Sapphire Isles'/sapphires on Tarth is included as one, that's why it was left out.

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Oh all the ones pertaining to Jaime's lie about the 'Sapphire Isles'/sapphires on Tarth is included as one, that's why it was left out.

Ok my mistake, I just looked up at the AFFC section in your list and did not see it so I assumed you missed it.

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WYLIS:

"No one ransomed the northmen, though. One fat lordling haunted the kitchens, Hot Pie told her, always looking for a morsel. His mustache was so bushy that it covered his mouth, and the clasp that held his cloak was a silver-and-sapphire trident. He belonged to Lord Tywin"

This is a play on words with the word 'morsel'. Like his father, Wylis uses his appetite and girth to his advantage, as a cover for spying etc. He is frequenting the kitchens, without suspicion, and listens to gossip - secretly spying. Tywin probably does have Wylis under control - apart from when he goes to visit the kitchens, 'looking for a morsel'. Morsel can mean gossip as well as food, 'morsel of gossip' is a phrase.

I just reread this passage. I figured you would have argued that this sapphire was related to Weasel's secret identity. Either explanation seems a bit tenuous. Perhaps the Trident was only the color of sapphire...

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DAGMER:

This Andrik may be a great fighter, but men do not fear him as they fear you"

Aye, thats so, Dagmer said. The fingers curled around the drinking horn were heavy with rings, gold and silver and bronze, set with chunks of sapphire and garnet and dragonglass. He had paid the iron price for every one, Theon knew."

Theon reconnects with his childhood idol, Dagmer. He seems to be slightly blinded by his idealisation of his aging hero. Dagmer previously admits Andrik has a better reputation for a fighter than himself. When Theon insists that Dagmer is more feared, Cleftjaw is happy to agree, secretly knowing that perhaps Andrik is now.

This seems like a p re etty weak connection. As you said he just admitted that Adrik was the best.

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Who's the biggest, bluest secret? *glances at J Snow*


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Who's the biggest, bluest secret? *glances at J Snow*

Bingo. :thumbsup:

Welcome to the forums. :cheers:

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