Evolett

Yes, I discovered this too while searching for information on severed hands recently, and thought hmm. I wonder if this "Hand of Glory" can be related to Jamie. His right hand "did the deed" when he killed Aerys and years later this hand is chopped off by Vargo Hoat. In the context of the "Hand of Glory", this kind of puts Vargo in the role of the Mad King's "avenger," especially since Aerys himself famously "chopped off several Hands" later in his reign. Jamie was forced to carry his rotting hand round his neck until reaching Harrenhal, where Roose tore it off. In Jamie's eyes, killing Aerys was his finest act, the latter very relatable to glory. His most glorious act, carried out by his sword hand, the Hand of Glory (can't resist the tempatation to line this up ). One of his horses is named Glory, though he usually rides Honor. And he's on his way to Lady Stoneheart whose prefered method of execution is hanging. I like the connection between left and sinister as well. Jamie's now learning to sword fight with his left hand and his teacher is the rather sinister Ilyn Payne, dispenser of Justice. Interesting, all in all. I can see a relevant connection but at the moment can't quite fathom where the "Hand of Glory" may lead us. I've been chewing on "tourney" and a possible association to "turn" too but have not been able to come up with anything useful to add to your interpretation of tourneys as major turning points or how that might relate to the concept of time specifically, only loose thoughts and observations that are difficult to verify. One thing I've thought for a while is that tourney winners, Queens of Love and Beauty and Mystery Knights all represent people of special magical ability. Finding evidence for this is difficult but it might be a thing. Queens of Love and Beauty may be associated with a change in season. When one is chosen and crowned, her season follows shortly, like the Winter that returned in force after Lyanna was crowned. The song - Seasons of my Love - may be hinting at this. Rhaegar being noted as "the Last Dragon" and winning the tourney, could be telling us that he definitely had the blood of the dragon and would have been a dragonrider had a dragon been available to him. Perhaps he was the first in the line of legitimate Targs after the Dance who possessed all magical traits necessary to the "blood of the dragon." Mystery Knights could indicate that a new greenseer will rise. I very much associate greenseers with mystery knights - the "knights of the mind" hidden away within a weirwood. The Knight of the Laughing Tree is the most obvious of the mystery knights in this interpretation, perhaps heralding the advent of Bran as a greenseer. Bran himself badly wanted to be a knight and becomes a temporary "knight" when he takes over Hodor's body. But first and foremost he is a "knight of the tree." Also, if I recall correctly, the Winterfell weirwood is the only "laughing weirwood" in the narrative. The carved face that later speakes to Theon with Bran's voice "laughs" during Ramsay's and Jeyne's wedding ceremony: Attention is drawn to a quorking raven in the branches. 19 years pass between the tourney at Harrenhal and Bran becoming a greenseer. This could be related to a "moon's turn." Not in terms of a month but in terms of another important cycle of the moon, also a "turn," one that takes 19 years to complete - the Metonic Cycle. The number nineteen is quite prominent in the story as are very frequent mentions of the moon's cycles in Bran's chapters beyond the Wall. It's a recurring theme reminding me of a countdown. Perhaps a countdown to the completion of the 19 year moon cycle.

I'm sure Lady Stoneheart's storyline will get considerably darker in tWoW. She's very much an aspect of Winter's revenge, avenging the killing of her husband and children, all of whom are from the line of the Kings of Winter. Tywin thought "dead men don't claim vengeance," but as we see, dead women do. Catelyn's story is linked to that of Alyssa Arryn, the lady who saw her husband, brothers, and sons all slain, and never shed a tear. The gods punished her to eternal unrest until her tears fall on the Vale below. Water from the waterfall named Alyssa's Tears never reaches the ground, turning to mist long before. Seems like neither Alyssa nor Stoneheart have found peace yet. The stone statue of Alyssa that stood in the garden at the Eyrie instead of a heart tree also hints at "stone heart." With the metaphor of tears not reaching the ground or the absence of grief being linked to vengeance, I wonder if Widow's Wail is meant for Lady Stoneheart. Catelyn was wounded by a Valyrian steel dagger in life. Perhaps Widow's Wail are the metaphorical tears that will take her out. As to Jamie, he's proven himself a pretty good negotiator during his travels through the Riverlands. In this respect he's exchanged the sword for the word. I can see him negotiating with Stoneheart in exchange for his life, Brienne's and Pod's. For that he'll need some bargaining chips. Stoneheart wants her son back or those who killed him dead. Perhaps Jamie can organise for Robb's body / bones to be handed over to her. I can also see her using him in a ploy similar to Ramsay's use of Theon to get the Ironborn out of Moat Cailin, but to bring "troops" in, rather than out of Riverrun in this case.

The text does give different in-narrative current versions of Garth and the horned god / green man in my opinion: The Baratheon brothers. This trio is also evident in the Faith of the Seven and their division of male and female aspects of the god into trinities. Each member of the trinity has a different function. With the Faith, it's evident George has drawn on the evolution of the horned god into different aspects over time as developed by Gerald Gardner who founded the pagan tradition of Gardnerian Wicca. This is where a lot of these ideas in the books come from. Barring the nebulous ancient legends, Storm's End major association with storms and rain + it being the seat of the horned Baratheons, is one of the main reasons I think the original Garth was mainly a rain-god rather than one who promoted fertility as a whole. It suggests further aspects of fertility ensued as additions to complete the picture we see in the final Garth. Storm's End supplies the rain, the water aspect for all three brothers. It's the basis for everything else. But Stannis symbolically loses even that when Robert declares him Lord of Dragonstone. Another tit-bit of evidence for this separation of weather and fertility of the earth is provided by House Merryweather. Lord Merryweather is married to Taena of Myr, a woman with very earthy imagery. Their seat is Longtable, their sigil a cornucopia spilling fruit and vegetables. The union of good weather and earth produces a bounty of food. Robert Baratheon is close to Garth and the horned lord archetype. He's virile and fruitful in terms of human fecundity, a warrior / hunter and leader of the people but he's not connected to vegetation himself, neither is Cersei, his "goddess." Jon Arryn, his Hand, was the symbolic "green vegetational man" at his side - from the fertile Vale of Arryn. In the lore, there is a difference between the Green Man god of vegetation itself and the Horned Lord. From what I gather after reading James Frazer's "The Golden Bough," the horned god /high priest /king-priest / high king archetype's primary function was to fertilize the mother earth goddess, represented by a woman / priestess of the tribe. The earth responds to this by bringing forth vegetation. In some traditions, the green man of vegetation is the actual vegetational deity. GRRM is mixing all lore but it appears likely he's also drawn on this "division of labour" or magical ability for that matter. Why his horned-god type should take the form of a merman is a good question and like you I suspect these so called green people where not human, but possibly represent the unnamed third elder race, but that's another story. Back to the Baratheons. We have Robert as the strong warrior-hunter type, virile kid-producing lord, minus vegetation. Then there's Renly who does have very green imagery connected to the forest but is not a "fertility god" in terms of argriculture in his own right. He does not fullfil the warrior aspect either, or is killed before he can do so. He buys into fertility by marrying into Highgarden. Margaery and Loras, Knight of Flowers are his link to this aspect of the god. That said, the idea that he may prefer men to women negates what is expected of a horned god who should be fertilizing the mother goddess so that plant life may flourish. Interestingly, from Cressen, we learn Renly liked to play at being a dragon, a king and a rain-god. Stannis lost his claim to the title of Storm Lord / Rain Lord when Robert assigned Dragonstone to him. He's dark and brooding, condones sacrificing people to the red god. There's no fertile imagery surrounding him. He has only one girl child disfigured by greyscale - she's stoney. He and his bannermen have been twice subject to starvation. He's a warrior, yes, but that's all he fullfils as horned lords go. He's not loved and unlike his brothers, has great problems rallying people to his cause. He represents the dark aspect of Garth. Stannis is also connected to the sea however. He can muster a fleet and was Master of Ships. I see signs of the Grey King here who is another aspect of Garth, but one focussed on the bounty of the sea, rather than the land. Stannis also has a "horned lord" in his household, Patchface, who wears a faux crown of antlers and bells and he's the stoney daughter's best friend, a broken horned god figure. He does not scream fertility either. Just on the surface, the entire combination suggests the ancient Garth figure once lost most of his power, becoming a useless tragic "fool." And perhaps this is the missing detail. I think the horned lord must be restored to his original intended form and I will add that the ancient "Garth" we are presented with does not comply with this perfection either. Garth fullfiled most roles except one. He was not monogamous. The male trinity of the Faith is the clue here. The Father who bears children with the Mother alone, has authority and lays down the law. The Smith who stands in for all who provide for the people, this includes farming, the agricultural aspect. The Warrior who defends the realm and the people. If there is one person I see as perfect in all these aspects, it's Ned Stark. We note, he is also a "brother" to Robert Baratheon. Ned has one wife and does not philander. He has five children to prove his virility. He is a leader in the North with authority to dispense the law. He's a proven hunter and warrior in his own right. He respects and looks after his people to the extent of inviting them to the Winter Town during the cold period. His glass gardens provide extra food during the cold months as well. He does not sacrifice people - instead, the old men of the North willingly sacrifice themselves during harsh winters so that others might live. I've made no mention of weirwoods here because I wanted to illustrate the above without bringing them into the picture. I don't doubt the original Garth had a connection to sacred trees before coming to Westeros. The black trees in Qarth (Garth) suggest there was such a connection. But what are the Qarthi also noted for? For spontaneous weeping (water on call, at will / rain imagery) and Xaro says they have "water in their veins." This is getting very long so I'll try to sum up what I suspect in relation to the wonky seasons. I think the ancients in Essos originally practiced fertility rites involving a wedding between a classic "horned lord" who had nothing to do with the trees and female "mother goddess" figures possessed of fertility magic. I suspect they significantly exploited the magic of women, abusing and enslaving them to ensure maximum productivity (and possibly a lengthening of the seasons). Things reached a tipping point somewhere along the line so that this practice was no longer viable. The various Essosi cultures, especially those beyond the bones, also suggest women fought back to reclaim their autonomy. The power of sacred trees was then discovered as an alternative to the fertilitiy magic of the women, henceforth used to power the fertility machine with the help of so called green horned lords (note - greenseers are "wed" to the trees) but this too was abused, resulting in the corruption of the trees, possibly leading to severe drought and the dessication of many parts of Essos. Garth's travels to Westeros and treating with the CotF would represent a fresh attempt to check out the possibilities on Westeros, a haven for the magical trees and a place to kick start the next round of magically induced fertility. All this does not really come to the fore in the story, which makes my interpretation sound like fan fiction. My take on it might not be exactly right but I think the broad strokes fit. Being tied to a weirwood is an abomination really and the weirwood connection to fertility may not feel correct. Yet there are a few signs in the story, such as the Green Men (who are horned fertility gods) that were set up as guardians on the Isle of Faces. And there's Bran who is "wed" to a weirwood. His name is also the name of a cereal, he fed crows corn, his wolf's name is Summer and ETA: he thinks of himself as "Prince of the Green." ETA: Regarding Stannis - he recovers the "rain and forest green" by naming Davos Lord of the Rainwood. With Mel he recovers the fire, also related to the passion and love of life displayed by Robert and Renly (the peach).

We don't see eye to eye on this but that's fine. It just does not add up for me. Garth supposedly led the FM to Westeros so he was obviously a leader. If he was so invested in weirwood magic and knew all about the potential of the trees, why did he stand by as his people did their very best to wipe them out? Legend is legend and Garth goes by three different names - Garth Greenhair, Garth Greenhand and Garth the Green. Were these different people? If so what abilities did the individual Garths possess and were those abilities enhanced or built upon to finally culminate in the last Garth remembered as the horned-god type fertility god? The weirwoods are very much a symbol of the CotF, imo. They were there and sacred to them long before Garth and his people arrived. The "Three Singers" also directly reference the CotF who name themselves singers. Planting those three trees at HIghgarden and naming them singers must be more than a symbol of magic. It could indicate a concession made by Garth, to demonstrate his acceptance of the trees and use them as a signal to his people, perhaps as part of the peace pact. Three weirwoods that grow into one could mirror the psi symbol as an indication of magic, yes, but the question is, what purpose does that magic serve and why was it important to Garth? If they are a source of magic, what did he use it for? What was the value in planting those trees? Valyrians employed their magic to breed dragons with which they conquered much of Essos. Perhaps Garth's main goal was to preserve knowledge, like the CotF who regarded the weirwoods as repositories of all their memories and histories. Or they serve some other purpose yet unrevealed. I think we agree the weirwoods are a source of magic. I would like to know what Garth used that magic for. Fertility magic targeting the earth is a likely purpose, especially since it ties into the theme of asychronous seasons. What is the song of the earth? Sounds like a spell to me, something fancier than "abrakadabra," designed to invoke the magic the singers require. Rather than the weirwoods starting the song, it's the CotF that use the song to address the old gods, the weirwoods. At least that's my understanding from the description given regarding the Hammer of the Waters: The account continues with the earth shattering: My interpretation of this is at odds with all who believe in a breaking moon followed by earth shattering meteors but this text suggests something different, imo. The old gods, the weirwoods, stir - they respond to the children's song, prayer and sacrifice and induce the earth to quake with immense force. Songs of the earth, sung to trees of the earth, magically producing earthquakes. My main focus is on the why of it. Valyrians used their magic to attain supremacy, becoming god-like in the process, this entitlement surviving the Doom and displayed by Dany currently. We haven't really figured out the purpose of weirwood magic. Greenseeing is one thing but is it really only about spying through trees, sending dreams, manipulating events and recording history?

Air is definitely underrepresented in terms of the elements, though I think it is there in the form of wind and even more elusive, in the form of the soul or spirits. Storm's End is significant here because it is built in a way to keep the wind out (the wind finds no purchase due to the way the stone is formed). Related to this are the magic wards that keep shadows / spirits out, unless one is a smuggler like Davos who can find a way in. But air itself is colourless. It can be felt and heard. You can smell it if it carries an odour and see the direction it's moving in if something else is mixed in but it can't really be seen. Red, blue and green can relate to so many things but in respect of the trident, I like the idea of the symbol as a unifying theme for magic specific to fluids. Perhaps garnets and rubies are distinguished by the type or quality of heat or fire. There are different kinds of fire in the narrative - red, black dragonfire, green wildfire and so on. Mel screams red fire. She's the red priestess. Hair, clothes, eyes, all red. Ghost is white with red eyes. He's all pale where she is predominantly red. Maybe garnets relate to pale fire rather than red or any other colour. I just noted his eyes glow red and baleful in the quote above. Baleful, perhaps a play on pale?

We compartmentalize too much, imo. I don't think it's as simple as that either. In this case the red mud is associated with a flowing river, so I'm inclined to think of it as blood. Muddied blood, dirty blood, black blood? There is also this passage describing the confluence of the Tumblestone and Red Fork which alludes to a spear driving into the side of the Red Fork: You get this sense of one river attacking another and a flow of blood. The Tully colours are red and blue and the Blackfish thinks of the color of the muddy red river as Tully red. Perhaps this indicates that Tully blood has been "muddied" by magic. They do have a fire component too, their red hair, but I see that as being separate from the blood river allusion. In Meera's Knight of the Laughing Tree story, she mentions the little crannogman being able to turn mud into water and water into mud. The gift of alchemy? Or does this mean he can rid/clean magical blood of its magical properties or otherwise be a catalyst for invoking magic in otherwise non-magical people? Just a thought. Regarding rubies, Rhaegar's rubies are linked to drops of blood while Mel's play a role in her fire magic, giving us fire and blood symbolism. Rhaegar was killed at the Ruby Ford, somewhere on the Trident. Being a ford, it may represent the crossover or coming together of fire and blood at that point. Yes that does seem contradictory but Jon's thoughts are probably helpful in determining the difference here: The stone wolf carving of Ghost on Longclaw has garnet eyes. For comparison, the Bolton sigil is pink with drops of blood and Ramsay wears a garnet cut in the shape of a drop of blood as an earing. So the garnet associations we have point to blood rather than fire. Ghost could be the "blood" component to Jon's fire. Hmm, GRRM is bamboozling us with this symbolism. Water as a unifying theme is an important insight. Perhaps what we're looking at with the trident is a magic based on fluids. Blood, water and sap. We think the Others use ice magic because they are creatures of ice, live in the frozen North and conjure up ice storms. But do they really use "ice magic?" We have no evidence for that. I keep getting back to the black trees with blue leaves. It seems likely they kept the Undying alive for centuries, much as Bloodraven persists in the weirwood that sustains him and prolongs his life. The shade drink and weirwood paste (which contains sap) induce similar effects. Perhaps the power in a wood is invested in the sap itself / sap-fires. Can the life-sustaining property of a weirwood also be employed to keep the undead "alive?" The Three Singers are a direct clue to the nature of the original "Garth" because they point at his direct involvement with the Children of the Forest who name themselves "singers." The question also is, why did he plant three weirwood singers at Highgarden, one of the major breadbaskets of the realm? Do they have anything to do with descendants of Garth becoming "Gardeners?" Garth was most likely a rain-god only, one who could magically induce rain but I doubt he originally had the power to infuence the fertility of the soil, which you need in order to generate vegetation as well. Garth as a rain-god is supported by the legend of Storm's End. Durran marrying the daughter of a sky and sea goddess which angered her parents so much they sent storms - rain. The antlers of Garth and the Baratheons who succeeded the Durrandons can also be interpreted as symbolic lightning as well. Trident wielding Poseidon also had the power to cause storms, amongst other catastrophes. This is where the CotF, the singers, come in. I think the pact they forged with the first men included augmenting his rain-making ability with their earth magic. Their magic is in song. They sing the "songs of the earth," which can include inducing plant growth. Planting the Three Singers on Garth's grounds, perhaps actually binding "singers," CotF or humans, to the trees, ultimately enabled Garth's fertility magic to include the "gift of agriculture" and, combined with his water-magic, allowed his seeds to proliferate so easily. None of this could have been achieved without a massive sacrifice. Blood magic, water magic and the power of the trees. The reason for the Hammer of the Waters? That would have killed thousands of coastal folk and may be one of the reasons the Ironborn consider weirwoods to be "demon trees." The thing is, the children couldn't stand against the FM. They had to reach a compromise that benefitted the FM while protecting their own folk and sacred trees. The FM multiplied much faster than the children and had the advantage of numbers. Those numbers also had to be fed. Agreeing to aid in promoting the fertility of the land makes sense in this regard. Humans got their lands and the children kept their forests. The FM knowing the purpose of the trees would also sway them away from destroying them and even encourage them to plant a weirwood on their premises, view them as gods and providers. So, that's my take on the significance of the Three Singers in relation to Garth.

I'm not sure if anyone's talked about the trident symbol itself in related threads discussing this dilemma but it suddenly hit me like a ton of bricks so I'll mention it here just in case: The trident symbol is the 23rd letter in the Greek alphabet, called PSI. PSI stands for the study of psychic powers and ablities. It also refers to psychic phenomena and to anything paranormal. In the field of parapsychology, Psi includes extra sensory perception (ESP) and psychokinesis. Telepathy, clairvoyance (second sight) and precognition are amongst the list of subjects studied. But that's not all. The planet Neptune is denoted by the same symbol (from trident wielding Greek Poseidon and Roman Neptune). In astrology, Neptune stands for illusions, mysticism, escapism, spiritualism, the blurring of boundaries, extreme sensitivity, and transcendent experiences, amongst other nebulous things. Eureka or no? It is for me . So, if the trident is the leading symbol that unifies the trio of colours, then the unifying element must definitely be magic or in other words, the paranormal activities going on in the books. And the beauty of it is, the symbolism isn't limited to RGB colours alone. As noted before, the Trident river with its three forks can symbolize a tree and its branches as well as antlers. With the help of this, one can figure out where the magic "flows." Houses associated with the RGB trio must be those carrying this magic potential in its entirety, are the source of its propagation or otherwise serve as triggers for it. House Strong is a good example. Larys comes across as one with "seeing" powers. Ser Harwin and especially Ser Lucamore Strong are the Garth types who spread their seed - Lucamore had 16 children with three different women, breaking his kingsguard vows. His kids were spread out all over the place but their "seed" surely lives on. "The seed is strong" motif is surely related to this. As to the Tullys, I feel my theory on Catelyn being the source of Bran's greenseeing powers confirmed. As to the type of magic represented by the colours.. GRRM may have given us a significant clue if the interpretation of the trident symbol is correct: House Manderly's sigil depicts a merman holding a black trident and their halls are decorated with unterwater scenery. Old Fishfoot, as the merman is called, is styled in green. Green hair, green beard, green fishtail. Water is the merman's domain. Wyman Manderly's daughter has green hair (dyed or natural is not stated). This suggests the green stands for water rather than for vegetation (water magic). Riverrun is on the Red Fork, its waters are a muddy red from mud and silt coming from the western mountains. There is red clay on the southern shore. My guess is this red represents blood as opposed to fire. (Perhaps Astapor is also a hint - blood and bricks built Astapor - bricks are made of clay /mud. The next one is controversial but might work. Blue. The power of the trees, all the trees and all vegetation, their life force, is blue. Why? For one, we have the example of the black trees of Qarth with their blue leaves and the associated blue shade of the evening plus the pulsing indigo of the Undying. Indigo could be a corruption of blue - the source of the spoiled meat taste in the drink. So, I've been thinking the magical force within vegetation as a whole can be visualized as being blue. There's a wordplay hint to this as well that I keep forgetting to add to the Puns and Wordplay thread: Sapphires. Sap - phires. Sap- Fires. The fires of sap - the fires, the life force, magical force of sap, of the trees. Sapphires are blue and stand in contrast to Mel's rubies that mediate her fire magic. Remember, Jojen tells us that there is power in a wood, a power as strong as fire. I'm personally sold on the idea that the power of a wood can be visualized as the colour blue. Is the Ruby Ford on the Red Fork? The Ford's location is very vague. There's no record of it on the maps, only unclear statements of a location near Lord Harroway's Town and near the Inn at the Crossroads. The former is on the Trident proper. I imagine it's the crossing of the Kingsroad over the Trident, but perhaps I've missed something.

Dany sending Jorah into the sewers and flushing him down the loo ...... The day after taking Meereen Dany holds court. She dresses most royally, in purple, donning her crown and wearing.... stilettos on her feet . I found another Myrish stiletto reference, Rhaegar Frey's mustache: Rhaegar Frey probably ended up in a Frey Pie, to be eaten and ejected into a sewer at some point. This reminds me of Symon Silver Tongue being cooked up in a bowl of brown. Singer's Stew. Rhaegar Frey is Rhaegar Targaryen's name sake and the latter was well known for his songs, he was a singer, in fact, like Symon. So the fecal motif coupled with cannibalism (even unknowing) appears to extend to singing and songs too. We have Lysa on our shortlist of characters being "flushed." And we've also thought of her as "fertilizer." Marillion the singer gained her favour but I just realised she's had a "singer" beside her all along. Her son Sweetrobin. That is if GRRM is drawing on the robin. It's a popular bird among gardeners, well known for its distinctive melodious song. Lately I've been comparing Gilly to Lysa. Lysa's prime concern is to keep Sweetrobin by her side. She refuses to give him away to be fostered and threatens to even kill her sister if she should so try. She continues to breastfeed him way past the toddler age. Is she continuously fertilizing him? Gilly also wants to keep her baby from becoming an offering to the cold gods. She accomplished that with Sam's help but was tragically forced to give him up (in respect of Lysa and Sweetrobin, both Stannis and Tywin are cold characters). I think GRRM may be drawing on the symbolism of the lotus flower in buddhism. Gilly grows up under the harsh rule of her father on the "midden heap" that is Craster's Keep, forced to marry him and bear his children, her sons designated as offerings to the gods. Yet amid this midden heap / pile of shit, grows a beautiful flower, she Gilly, named after the Gillyflower. The lotus flower represents purity and enlightenment. Even though it emerges from muddy murky waters, its blooms rise above it, strong and beautiful. I expect her to have passed this "pure flower" to her son. Maybe he is the most valuable of all Craster's sons so far, most valuable to the Others. He is the pure flower grown and fertilized by the midden heap they require. He's too young to be a singer but Gilly asked Sam for a song for him. He chose the song of the Seven which focuses on keeping little children safe. With all the connections to bowls of brown, fertilizer and cannibalism, it seems likely he is to be food or fertilizer for the Others. This really does tie into other things I've been looking at. Hopefully Sam's song will keep him safe.

Have you had a look at my two posts on the etymology of "weir" and the PIE "wer?" Hedge is great too. Basically, almost anything that serves to obstruct.

Yes, I would think so too. I recall Lady Dustin naming the maesters "grey rats." The maesters highlight another element, knowledge, which Tyrion has in common with them. In Dany's circles, everything "is known" ("it is known"). Not so at the Wall where Jon Snow knows nothing and the North has difficulty in remembering the past. Patchface is a fountain of knowledge, if only his so called prophecies could be decoded by those around him. I definitely see acquiring knowledge as paramount to finding solutions to the problem. Not only the knowledge gathered through the weirwoods but that of the maesters and other learned scholars as well.

The swimmers sent to remove the grates from the sewers are "half mad." The iron grating can be compared to a weir or dam. More to a classic weir because its function is to regulate water flow. So the "mad" swimmers are those who dismantle the dam. Maybe I'm wrong about Patchface being a block in the system - he's also considered to be mad. Whatever the case, I can see him playing a role, perhaps a twist. And I just noticed Dany hopes her sewer rats have no sense of smell. This again is another Tyrion parallel - he has no nose, alluding to having no sense of smell.

After going over the chapter again, many parallels to Tyrion stood out to me. For one, Tyrion is associated with cleaning up the sewer system at Casterly Rock. Even if he never entered the sewers himself, he commanded a work-force of "sewer rats" to get the job done. Like Dany's force, Tyrion technically has no family he can return to. In this respect his situation is similar to Barristan's and Jorah's, also the Unsullied - and actually like Dany herself. Tyrion is also a "sewer rat" in another sense. He sews his own clothes, basically a set of motley, while travelling the Rhoyne. Motley is patchwork, made of different coloured cloths, like Meereen, the city built of many coloured bricks. Meereen is actually a patchwork city in this respect. She also thinks of her "sewer rats" as fools: While the brave and foolish sewer rats infiltrate, Joso's Cock is busy ramming the gates of Meereen and we get another "fool" reference: Joso's Cock ramming the gates of Meereen is a rape analogy. Tyrion rapes Tysha on his father's orders (there's also the sex worker he treated so badly, more or less raped, to consider here). Shagwell is another rapist fool. When Dany sent Jorah and Barristan into the sewers, she hoped they would die (she had discovered the treachery prior to this). Instead they emerged and their effort led to the slaves breaking their chains: So what does all this mean? I can only offer an educated guess. Perhaps "sewer rats" are another key to releasing the undead from the invisible magical "chains" holding them thrall to the white walkers. To bring in the possible "weir strasse," i.e, weir street anagram, travelling down the weirnet by way of the roots may be the route that needs to be taken. Consciousness travelling througth the "street" to intercept the magic of the Others perhaps. But maybe the weir-route in question is foul and blocked (thinking of the poisoned Raventree weirwood) and needs to be "cleaned," as Tyrion restores the flow at Casterly Rock. Patchface is probably part of this symbolism. He's a broken horned-god or broken greenseer type. In one of his announcements, he offers to lead the Hardhome mission, saying they will go into the sea and return from it (like he did, drowning and returning from death). He could symbolise a broken greenseer blocking some portion of the weir net or street.

Why do you see the Jon/Halfhand bit as separate from Sam's? It's Jon who introduces the idea of the "bug" and compares himself to it. Sam strives to swat the bug but misses and this analogy is also true in reference to Jon. Sam would never prevail against Jon in combat. The Halfhand might also represent the CotF whose fingers do not add up to five. It's not an exact count - Qohrin has 1 finger and a thumb - but it could be a nod in that direction. Sam as the "swatter" has also been described as a leviathan: A huge whale or leviathan will cause a mighty splash when it rises out of and falls back into the sea - a possible allusion to the "Hammer of the Waters." The murals at the Manderly's Merman Court depict a kraken fighting a leviathan: The kraken could represent the magical force that counters the leviathan's swatting (or Hammer), causing the intended purpose of eliminating the symbolic bugs to fail.

No, that's not what I meant. If Jon is the bug that needed swatting, the goal was missed. Instead the arm (or Halfhand) was hit and the bug got away. That implies the "bugs" managed to infiltrate Westeros. Similarly, Ned could not avoid the infestation of Lannisters because they were part and parcel of the King's entourage, Robert, the Black stag, for what it's worth as part of my proposed symbolism.

In reality, the "arm" belongs to Westeros and to Sam who swats his own arm instead of the bug. Jon says: So strictly speaking, Jon is the "bug" in this scenario. The Halfhand could be a reference to the Broken Arm, the arm that was hit instead of the bug. And like Jon who isn't hit by the Halfhand, Sam's bug escapes. Agreed. I would also argue the "bug" is more likely to be human, perhaps in large numbers. I mean, Ned thinks of the Lannisters as an "infestation" before the King Robert's entourage descends on Winterfell.

I just had a look at the etymology of "bug." It may or may not lead to something but I find it an interesting lead worth following. Apparently, the word "bug" was influenced by "bugge," meaning "scarecrow" or something frightening. Some other meanings from the Scottish, Welsh and Old Irish relate to "threat", "ghost," "supernatural being." Also related is "bog," a dialectal varient of "bug" and "bogey, bogeyman, boggart," all of which refer to ghosts, haunting specters, the devil and the like. So here we have a conversation between Sam and Jon. Jon with his direwolf named Ghost and perhaps connecting to the "scarecrow brothers" that man the Wall to give the impression that the NW is stronger in numbers than they really are. But "bug" has also been considered as a root word for "buck" as in a male goat, originally representing a goat-like specter. A buck could also be a stag. Considering Sam's reply, it can also be intepreted as Sam being the "bug" in question. He swats himself. Could Sam be a symbolic "buck" or "stag?" Likely. The Tarly sigil is the huntsman, his father Randyll a martial character. His son Sam is anything but a "huntsman," he's a self-declared craven. As I recently found out, the name Randyll probably relates to Randal, meaning "shield-wolf," the wolf also a fitting metaphor for a huntsman. Sam being craven recalls the deer that are the huntsman's prey. Warlocks bathed him in the blood of an aurochs to make him brave / aurochs - another horned animal. So perhaps Sam really is a symbolic stag or goat, a horned-lord figure. A black stag? A black goat? Sam being a symbolic stag and friend to wolf-Jon would also mirror the friendship between Robert and Ned. In relation to the Hammer of the Waters and its possible purpose as a means to prevent the infestation of an unsavoury species, "bugs" as "black goats" make sense to me. We've met one diabolical "black goat" in the form of Vargo Hoat and know the Black Goat of Qohor requires heavy sacrifices. Perhaps while the CotF had nothing against Garth the Green as a horned-lord, they may have rejected the darker Black Goat variant. Just as intriguing is Jon's statement:

Perhaps at "bugs" as the text suggests. Bugs sting as much as a swat on the arm does for Sam. Bugs (or insects) are not the most loved of species. They bite and sting, we think of them in terms of an infestation or plague. The Hammer being a last resort against the influx of First Men seems pointless at the time the Breaking is said to have occured. Maybe there was another threat. Invaders that the children (and perhaps even the FM) viewed as very dangerous, as an "infestation" to the detriment of the continent.

Actually, the Proto-Indoeuropean root "wer" along with later Old English and Old German derivatives has several different meanings, all of which potenially apply to the weirwood with its recognisable "wer" root. There is PIE "wer" meaning "cover up," from which Old English "weir" as in a dam, fence and Old German "wehr" as in a dam and defence developed. PIE "wer" is however also the hypothetical source for "perceive, watch out for," and words relating to guarding, seeing, protecting - also ward, warden, steward. PIE "wer" - also "to turn, bend, to become" (evident in German "werden" = to become). But it also applies to worms which "turn and bend." Very interesting also is the PIE root meaning "to raise, lift, hold suspended." I'm thinking of all those references of weirwood branches appearing to reach out to the moon here. All these relate to the weirwood. So yes, this another example. "Wer" as in "man" forming "werewolf," a man-wolf. Were-wood is a great connection in this regard. Were-wood = man wood. And guess what, GRRM has a character named "Manwoody" in the narrative. PIE "were-o" is the hypothetical root of Latin verus, meaning "true." This also seems fitting: one cannot lie in front of a heart tree. The etymology of "wolf" and historical associations with the animal are also very relevant and worth considering. "Wolf" and "wulf" developed from the PIE "wlkwo" which is also the source of Old Persian "Varkana." Varkana, also known as "Hyrcania" literally means "wolf land" and was a region near the Caspian Sea. Note the Var syllable in relation to Varamyr. Hyrcania may be the basis for GRRM's Hyrcoon. Though wolves were esteemed for their ferocity and courage, they were also feared for their predatory activities. The wolf was personified by young outlaws who preyed on society, often to exact vengeance. Wolf was once also synonymous with the devil, the demonic, the criminal, the man who turns on his brothers. Also interesting and relevant is the wolf as a symbol of lust, in males symbolising the sexually aggressive man (wolf-blooded Brandon Stark as an example). Much earlier, this also applied to the equation of "prostitute" with "lupa, meaning" she-wolf (Latin "lupus" = wolf) "Lupa" referred to a whore or sexually active female. Germanic "warg" has been rejected as meaning "werewolf" but the word "warg" is thought to have meant "strangler" at one point in time. "Warg" is certainly used in the context of "werewolf" in the novels though. In Old English, "wearg" referred to an accursed person. What is certain is the term "warg" was used to denote an outcast. "Let him be warg" was said of men whose crimes were so heinous that they deserved being sent into exile as the severest punishment. All these associations relate to wargs / skinchangers and the Starks in one way or another. The warg as an outcast is fitting, the motif of the outcast also applying to the "Stranger" who is from far places and relevant also to @Seams "fur stranger" wordplay discovery we talked about earlier in this thread. I bet the missing indigo of Renly's guard is also part of this group of symbols, indigo being the outcast "stranger." Further interesting finds include: Old English beo wulf, literally "bee-wolf," "a wolf to bees;" a kenning for "bear." The name Randal, from Old English "randwulf" meaning "shield-wolf" ("rand" = shield). Randal reminds very much of Randyll (Randyll Tarly).

Being inspired by another writer’s work, incorporating ideas and acknowledging their work by means of nods and easter eggs is one thing. Basing the entire concept, major plots and characters of a story on someone else’s work is quite another however. For the most part, GRRM’s short stories do not really appeal to me but they at least appear to have sprung from his own imagination. Honestly, I would be very disappointed if aSoiaF should turn out to be based on someone else’s concept with merely a change of “furniture” to differentiate it from the original. I would in fact feel very cheated. Burning of books and paraphernalia would not be out of the question and I think others would share this sentiment. Hopefully, this is not the case.

This is fantastic. Very nice catch. Thanks. I don't know why this didn't occur to me the last time we discussed it. This is great too. Thinking of the Dance, at the end of the war, the cycle is restored with green marrying black. Perhaps the war was a symbolic fight over dominance of the cycle.. hm, a new thought. Your recent thread came to mind at once on reading @Seams post. Link here for reference. But I'm not sure wull / wall / well and buckets share the same symbolism with pale, pale (stake), pail, and palisade. Palisade and wall are both fencings but different. I'll have to think about it.

Would be interesting to hear an opinion on this, true. @Phylum of Alexandria - this might interest you. I read the entire series and companion books in English but watched the show in German. While I have not payed active attention to wordplay in the TV-series, certain translations did stand out to me. A good example is Criston Cole. Until HotU, I used to think „cole“ perhaps as connected to „coal.“ Cole was translated to „Kraut“ however, indicating we should be thinking of cruciferous vegetables, including the cole family when we read „Cole,“ but I never thought of that before. Kraut in German means „herb,“ but also cabbage. All types of cabbage are „Kraut“ but as in English, Kraut is also unified under „Kohl.“ The cole/cabbage link thus become more apparent to me in the German translation. German „Kohle“ also translates to English „coal,“ together reflecting Criston’s switch from black (coal) to green (cole). There is also the use of German “wanderer” for “walker.” I commented on that earlier in this thread. Since many European languages share the same roots, those interested in investigating wordplay in other languages might come to similar conclusions by examining the etymology of the words. Weirwood is an example, translated in German to „Wehrholz.“ Holz = wood. Weir and Wehr share the same root (wer / werian), originally meaning a dam-like structure built across rivers or streams to control the flow of water. But the "wer" root also means defence and in fact, while English has retained the dam meaning, the defence aspect has been largely lost. In English, weir also refers to a kind of fence set into a river to catch fish. Not so in German. Here „wehr“ carries both the dam and defence meaning, with wehr as in defence forming many different words. Wehren = to defend. The fire service is „Feuerwehr,“ Military Service is „Wehrdienst“ and non-German speakers will be familiar with „Wehrmacht,“ Hitler’s armed forces in WWII. That word is taboo in the context of the modern army and is only used in conjunction with WWII history. So Wehrholz could be "wood that defends". A language-aware German-speaker interested in interpretation would immediately think of „wehrholz“ in terms of a defence-system, rather than a weir dam. Running weir and wehr through Google Translate, I get the impression that this goes for many other European languages. I would like to know how „weirwood“ has been translated in other languages. We can perhaps figure out the function of the weirwood-system from these three meanings and come close to the truth imo, a. Weir - a defence-system (appropriate – CotF – kept watch by looking through the eyes of the trees. What were they watching out for? >> Asha talks of the CotF turning the trees into warriors. Northmen are camouflaged as trees when they take Deepwood Motte back from the Ironborn (who are invaders from the sea). b. Weir – a dam that controls water flow. Why? > To deprive enemy water-entities of their medium? To drown enemies? To stop enemies – invaders capable of sailing or swimming up rivers >> enemies emerging from inland lakes, enemies from the sea? Is there textual evidence for this? >> Weirwoods are often near waterbodies > Winterfell weirwood near a pool / hot pools. God’s Eye – large grove of weirwoods in a huge lake. Weirwood at the Crofter’s village. Nightfort - Weirwood door at bottom of a well, young weirwood at top of well. Young weirwood at Crackclaw Point by the sea plus story of squishers. c. Weir – a fence structure used to catch fish >> related to b. In relation to defence, this brings to mind squishers and deep ones. There is power in a weirwood. Is the author also drawing on the negative connotations of Wehrmacht (macht means power) and what does this imply in respect of the weirwood? Some other avenues of investigation springing from this would be a closer look at Rohanne Webber’s dam which was constructed of wood (The Sworn Sword). Why Arya is a pink otter swimming through the God’s Eye lake? Though otters don’t build dams, they use abandoned dams to shelter from predators. How is Greywater Watch linked to this? Are there no weirwoods in the Neck, do the crannogmen watch instead of the trees? So that’s one example of how translations into other languages can work, or even clarify the underlying meaning of a term in English.

I've been trying to find this passage. Do you remember where it can be found?

This might be wordplay on a stiletto heel or on a toilet - taken together with "Myrish," an anagram could refer to a shit toilet. This might be a Jaime Lannister parallel, as he is famously associated with shit for honor and a privy is now located where he knelt to join the kingsguard. His right hand was taken off with an arakh. This sounds like a digression but Jaime was betrothed to Lysa who is strongly associated with the Moon Door. In a long-ago thread, the forum worked out that outhouses traditionally have crescent moons on the doors and a person exposes their "moon" when sitting on the seat. So the two blades could represent the new moon and the toilet moon - about to drown.) Dany is very attracted to Daario and to his sensuous matched blades. Maybe she's really attracted to the new moon of his curved blade? While Ser Jorah is an unattractive moon about to set. She flushes him by sending him on a mission into the sewers. This post had me in stitches, especially the last line. Anyone new to the forum reading this will probably think we've completely lost our marbles Dario's stiletto really is the only one in the book. It reminded me of Ramsay's falchion, his skinning knife, also the only one of its kind in the series. My mind immediately went to the falcon connection - falcon/falchion - both words share the same Latin root - "falx" - curved blade, sickle. The falcon is thought to have been named for its curved beak, talons and/or wings. The falcon is uniquely linked to the Arryn sigil - moon and falcon and also to the "fly or die" motif. Now that you mention the "flushing" aspect, Lysa's departure through the Moon Door would also be a flushing action, thus connecting the stiletto (toilet) with the Moon Door. (But this might not work, Lysa being associated with Lys, the stiletto being Myrish). The edieval privy located high up a castle could also be another "moon door." Also interesting, Dario's beard is dyed blue when Dany first meets him, perhaps another link to the Arryn sigil. The Arryn words are "As high as honor," which seems to focus on the falcon, making "shit for honor" the moon door perhaps. But Ramsay also has "shit for honor," Lysa too actually, suggesting the falcon and falchion are also opposites. The flushing aspect of the moon is also apparent in "moon blood" and "moon tea." There's the Temple of the Moonsingers in Braavos which might be connected to Dario's two blades: Sounds like a depiction of the moon itself (the huge dome). The marble maidens flanking the Gates to the Moon, supporting what sounds like a cresent /sickle moon could be a parallel to Dario's blades with Dany being the cresent moon he is supporting with his blades. I wonder if we can tie Irri and Jiqui to Dario's blades? The "moon mort" wordplay and Jorah being flushed bring to mind Jamie rescuing Brienne from the black bear in the bear pit at Harrenhal. If bears are also moon symbols then this black bear which is later killed in the deep pit is another "setting" or fallen moon.

Just noticed that this mirrors the dichotomy of Stark joy and sorrow. Starks are solemn, stern and long-faced but Lyanna may have been the Knight of the Laughing Tree and was taken to the Tower of Joy. Frozen Eddard Stark takes the smiling Theon as a hostage to his father's good behaviour. Theon goes from being a "smiler" to becoming a tortured unhappy man. I'm also reminded of Patchface whose original purpose was to get Stannis to laugh and of the Shrouded Lord who grants anyone who makes him laugh a fool. Doloros Edd fits the somber Stark image but is also quite witty too - doloros / delirious. Perhaps Doloros Edd symbolizes the balance between joy and sorrow.

There is a lot of corellation between purple and gold going on, gold often in the form of currency. I'm thinking also of the Payne sigil - purple and white checkerboard with gold coins. In Arya's case the currency the iron coin that pays the purple-clad ferryman Ternesio and then grants entry into the otherworld of the HoBaW. I've been associating the purple/gold combination with the paying of debts in particular. Arya's weapon is a poisoned gold coin, as is the gold coin used by the Alchemist. Arya's victim was a dishonest insurance man who did not pay up - he was indebted to the families of lost captains and is forced to "pay his debts" with death by way of a poisoned gold coin. There could be another layer of meaning to Varamyr's name Lump, especially with the plum/lump wordplay in the background - it could be another gold reference - a lump of gold. Varamyr is reborn to a second life in his wolf. So perhaps a purple/gold combination is the currency that allows rebirth while a purple/poisoned gold combination does not. Dany of the purple eyes and silver-gold hair is also associated with rebirth through the Azor Ahai prophecy of the hero being reborn to wake dragons from stone. Love this idea. Arya naming her horse Craven is puzzling but this explains a lot. Now that's a thought. LF, Master of Coin, is asscociated with the pomegranate, the medium by which Peresphone lost the opportunity to leave the underworld completely. Eating the seeds meant having to return to Hades for at least half a year, during the cold season. Persephone could travel back and forth and Arya's ability to leave and return to the otherworld of the HoBaW suggests the same. But this mediated by the iron coin, not by gold, wheras LF main currency is gold. I've also been thinking of Bowen Marsh, the "Old Pomegranate" in terms of a Master of Coin. He's the chief steward in charge of provisioning. He's known for his preoccupation with counting. No doubt he manages the financial resources of the NW as well. Being in charge of supplies he would have a hand in that. So it's interesting his efforts are directed to preventing the freefolk's crossing over from the otherworld of the North to the land of the living in the South. I can see "moon mort" being valid as a reference to the new moon / black moon. I'm familiar with the expression "moon die" meaning the end of the month and this is alluded to in the text too. Aeron Damphair speaks of the moon drowning: When the moon has drowned and come again is set as the date for the kingsmoot. The drowned moon must be the new moon / black moon and come again could indicate the first slim sicle shape that appears after the new moon. The reflection of the moon that shatters and reforms in the Womb of the World could also be part of this. Jorah Mormont is nearby. We need to look for more moon allusions regarding the Mormonts. Don't overdo it True. In Sandor's case my focus was more on his name - the Hound - being an animal with fur and of course his horse named Stranger. Significant cloaks would include sable and shadowcat, bear cloaks. Speaking of bear cloaks - Val very much comes to mind here. She leaves Castle Black wearing a brown bear cloak, iirc, but returns wearing the white snow-bear outfit she received from Dalla. She may also be a "fur stranger," able to navigate the dangers of the "otherworld" beyond the Wall with ease and return safely. Perhaps her weirwood pin is the "coin" in this case? Seems fitting.