divica

34 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Just wanted to say how stunningly excellent that all was! Thank you.

No it wasn t. Most of it ignores logic and makes bad situations even worse.

Jon not only kills danny, but she is pregnant with his child and he does it in order to save his familly. And then his familly exiles him to the NW...

Then if jon kills danny not only does he become the rightful king but she would be an enemy of a lot of people in westeros. What happened to robert after he killed rhaegal, tywin after he sacked KL, Jaime after he killed aerys, the mountain after he killed rhaegar's familly, stannis after he killed renly and a lot of other people that killed kings or did dishonorable acts? In this theory jon would need to act in a similar way to the red wedding to deserve such a punishment…

Then if location decided who the king is they were lucky to not go to hot pie's tavern… Besides the fact that the place doesn t belong to bran, that most of westeros follows another religion, that tyrion is a hated condemned kinslayer, that bran can t have kids and that a monharchy without heirs doesn t really work (as discussed some pages ago)...

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, agreed. But it’s only made it even worse. For me anyway.

Let’s see... they amputate the story from a main character and transplant it into a minor character’s story, and by doing this they completely destroy 3 characters at least: Sansa, Theon, and Jeyne Poole. The truth is, there are ramifications here that have an impact on other characters as well, but I’ll leave those out here. Back on track, they butcher 3 characters, and “make up for it” by giving treats to the rape/torture victim. Hmmmm. Don’t like it. And it gets even worse... The way the Sansa Poole plot plays out, getting into that situation was something our rape/torture victim chose for herself. Remember? While on their way from the Vale to Winterfell, Littlefinger told her, “if you want, we'll go back to the Vale” (paraphrasing). And Sansa decided she wanted to go ahead w/ the plan to marry Ramsay Bolton, aka the Sansa Marriage Strike, as @OldGimletEye put it brilliantly.

So, Sansa was given a treat because she willingly made herself a victim.

It also ended up ruining the lords of the vale and LF. They basically became sansa's underlings for reasons… They completly lost their identity and motives for doing things...

Then in s6 the army of the vale had to be able to ride through moat calin for reasons… It is impossible to have that army going north without the boltons knowing about it…

And in s7 and s8 sansa became an annoing character that didn t have a story. She was just there and was the smartest person ever always going agains her siblings...

The only smart thing in entire scenario was having LF go to KL and convence cersei to let him lead the vale army into the north to attack winterfell and capture sansa. That made sense! Even though I have no idea how he would convince the lords of the vale to rebel against the lannisters and fight a war for sansa without the vale gaining anything when he was the one that gave sansa to the boltons...

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

The books and show built their fame on being cynical, gross and subverting tropes. Ultimately, subverting too many tropes, sacrificed a coherent storyline.

Ultimately, it was maybe GRRMs plan to get rich and famous without finishing. Book 4 and 5 are basically stalling and planting seeds for more speculation. Which is clever from a marketing point of view, but if this is his endgame he got caught with his trousers down.

but the problem is that it isn t really true for the 5 or so main characters. Usually those things happen to side characters like robb, oberyn, ned, joffrey...

When you look at jon, danny, tyrion, arya and bran/sansa they are very traditional...

21 minutes ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

Hello all, 

I have been lurking for a few weeks. I've been dying to see what others think will be the continuation of the story now that the show is done. First I'd love to hear what others think of whether Dany, Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Arya and Bran's stories will come to the same conclusion or not. If not, then how do you think their story will go, and end? The more I lurk, the more I decided I'd like to stick around and see how well I (and we) can predict what will happen in TWOW and beyond.

My current thoughts on the 6:

Jon: I didn't like it at first, but minus the details, especially actually honoring a pledge to a dude that just sailed to Naath for... forever, I can see Jon's story ending with him living with the Free Folk or still in the Night's Watch. He may end up taking a dark turn if he needs a resurrection though. 

Sansa: I don't think her book story will end the same as the show. I think it more likely she rules the Vale in her own right. As Lady Sansa Stark, the Vale Lords naming her heir to Lisa/Robin. It may be that she gets the Vale to fight for her, but her being Queen of the North wouldn't continue the Stark bloodline. In the books, though...Rickon is still alive.

Bran: Bran may make less sense than Sansa. Even though the actor claims D&D said GRRM says that Bran will be King... I agree the Lords of Westeros would laugh at his tales and would laugh louder at the idea of him being King of the 6 or 7 Kingdoms. But how do he and his story get from a tree throne (uh oh...) underground north of the Wall all the way to King's Landing?

Tyrion: Tyrion is one of my favorite characters so I'd love to see him end up as Hand again. Or as Lord of Casterly Rock... but so far in the books he has yet to team up with Dany. He still needs to be named her Hand AND have her conquest be successful this time...in a manner that wouldn't make him quit. I think we got too fairytale of an ending and there won't be a King Bran to name Tyrion Hand as punishment. 

Dany: In book Dany still needs to resolve her Dothraki situation, hopefully Victarion ends up being her escape from Meereen and fast forward button to Westeros. I do think we get Mad Queen Dany in a different way. Maybe she burns King's Landing "by accident" with the wildfire caches exploding. Right now I'd guess Dany dies in battle either trying to take King's Landing or after in the fight against the Others.

Arya: Arya's story may be the most interesting to me of the 6. I actually loved that she is sailing off on an adventure to the unknown west of Westeros. I'd like to find book evidence to support this. However, the show clearly cut off her real storyline to rush her and everyone else to Westeros. We really, as far as we know, got no continuation of her book storyline at all. Yet her sailing off west of Westeros made the most sense to me of the 6. I just don't know how she gets from her training in Braavos to there. Her arc would have to include something to get her out of the Faceless Men organization or her sailing would be a Faceless Men mission.

Come on. Arya isn t a sailor. She could decide to ride to some unknown places, but sailing? To a place nobody has ever returned from? it doesn t make sense!

And if danny goes mad/evil queen and tyrion is her hand how can he still have political power/value to be hand of another king? We are talking about a dude that is acused of killing his father and nephew and condemned to death for it. That is suposed to be a big deal in westeros… And this doesn t inclube the fact that he is generally hated by everybody for being a dwarf. Can you see the westerlands accepting him as lord? The lords of westeros acepting him as hand?

I agree with sansa and can t really coment on bran because it makes no sense to me... He should become a greenseer and act as a leading figure for the children of the forest and religious leader for those that follow the old gods.

I don t see (like) jon ending up in the NW again because it doesn t make sense for his character to return to a place he outgrew and that proved to be useless… Unless the NW becomes something completly diferent… I could see him leading the wildlings, but it would be with them settled in the gift and to garantee peace between them and the north. But I see him leading a new kind of north full of savages and war veterans that want to survive the coming winter. 

Just now, Nowy Tends said:

Not at all. It's an oligarchy based on lordship. Tobho Mott, blacksmith in KL or Hotpie, baker in the Riverlands, will never be consulted or represented.

But a group of people will decide together the fate of the kingdom. It is a kind of democracy...

And it would lead to the kingdoms separating… 

9 minutes ago, Zorral said:

https://www.vulture.com/2019/05/game-of-throness-king-bran-george-rr-martin-books.html

 

I think this is a very interesting situation. an author has the oportunity of seeing how the public reacts to his ending and it is mostly negative. Will he change anything or trust that is vision is good?  

29 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

Why do I think the show made Bran King? because they're idiots--same reason they made Arya kill the King White Walker--shock and a BIG STUPID TWIST that doesn't fit with the plot.

One of the strangest things in the show is how it basically is a targ tragedy. It isn t sweet, it is complelty bitter! I don t think anyone that likes jon, danny or that branch of the story will like it… The path to get to that situation would need to be very diferent...

And then everybody else has a fairy tale ending? No compromises? Nobody has arranged marriages? Everybody alive is simply good and acepts whatever is done is for the greater good?

And I can t even imagine how much grrm would need to write about bran in order for him to learn how to rule, for us to understand his tax policies, for the south to accept him, for the faith of the seven to be ok with him… 

30 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

Yes, that's what I'm starting to believe now. Obviously they are very uncomfortable with this situation, hence the lack of dialogue, the lousy attempts at humour, etc.

I don t think so. They clearly showed how they think a democratic situation was stupid. The council ruling is basically democracy…

For me the great problem with trying to link what happens in the show with what happens in the books is that the 8th season doesn t fit with the story they told in the seventh season. IT feels like 2 diferent stories. Besides the fact that some of the endings just don t make sense...

5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The greenseers weren’t confined to trees from a young age. The Children’s greenseers gathered in places, moved around and generally interacted with the population.

They were noted as having different coloured eyes and having shorter lives, not as being physically tied to a tree from a young age.

That is simply not how it worked. Bran will merge permanently with a tree yes, but only when he is old. For now, he is just undergoing his training.

And will leave the cave once done.

doesn t bloodraven say that he won t leave that cave?

3 minutes ago, DMC said:

Um, who says Hodor went mad?  Neither in the show nor the books did he go mad, thus far.  He had an episode in the show, one that was very similar to what Thistle experienced, if you'll remember:

If you think that's apples and oranges to what could happen - or even what did happen to Hodor in the show - then, well, you're very bad at fruit classification.

No we don't and no you didn't.  For the last time, he could have always been mute, had the episode, then started saying Hodor.  You have not provided any evidence otherwise.

Again, who said Hodor was mindless?  This is becoming borderline offensive.

LOL, this is your interpretation.  I'm not saying it's wrong - in fact I mentioned it as a possibility.  But don't act like you know what Bloodraven meant in that moment.  None of us know his head.

I'm saying Bloodraven wouldn't be trying to reach Daeron II from that tree until Daeron was already dead.  Thus, it's fundamentally different than Bran's situation over the next two books.

Oh no, I didn't mean to suggest either.  I'm just saying they can take their skills elsewhere - if their body can take it - and use the weirwoods as a source.  This is literally what happens in the final pages we have of Bran's POV, so I don't think it's crazy.

I think you are misinterpreting things. Hodor is a simpleton in the books that only says 1 word AND has mental problems. I don t remember if he was born this way or not, but there is no doubt that hodor isn t a normal human being. I don t think it makes sense that hodor had some deficiencies and then he got more mental probs after bran intervened… It is just too convenient.

Then hodor does have side efects from bran mind raping him… I have a lot of doubts if bran skinchanging into hodor isn t making him into some kind of thrall like how the skinchanged animals become obedient… 

All in all, just like in the books danny looks to be going in a conquering phase bran looks to be going into a very dark phase. If I remeber right he broke all taboos about skinchanging, might be eating jojen paste, will have to deal with meera wanting to leave him behind, with having all that power but not being able to walk… 

24 minutes ago, teej6 said:

And I’ve never been convinced with any of your arguments. Correct me if I’m wrong, weren’t you also a proponent of Jonsa? I guess that theory is out the window now considering the happenings in the show? Or isn’t it? Well, we are not going to agree, so cheers!

I have no idea how the vale could invade the north…

Like, first sansa is married to tyrion so she won t have support.

Then how can the vale invade the north? by land it shouldn t be possible and I have no knowledge of a vale fleet capable of transporting thousands of soldiers.

Then LF won t declare war on the lannisters by going public with sansa when all his power comes from the lannisters.

And I can actually suport a politcal jonsa if it makes sense.

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He will never end it, so all this discussion is really irrelevant, he will never finish in two more books and he will never get another book out after Winds of Winter.  The 5 year gap is the reason the whole thing went off the rails in the first place and is still off the rails.  Bran sure as hell cannot be King at 12 years old, so he is going to have to progress the story 5 years to make it believable. 

I think people will actually prefer that he never ends the story. That way everybody can be imagine the end they want for the characters….

After GOT I think most fans lost hope that they  will like grrm's ending...

Just now, Cas Stark said:

Sure, I hate the endings for everyone as well, except for Dany, because this is actually a good and tragic ending for her, because it was never very believable that the woman who has wanted the IT since the first book....was going to get the IT in the end and be happy about it.  GRRM always punishes his characters.  It's a very tragic ending, and I suspect that both Arya and Jon especially will be much more tragic feeling than the show, which tried to spin that as happy.  Me, personally, I think Sansa should die, but I gave up on that idea a long time ago and it looks like she will get the biggest reward next to Tyrion. 

I like the idea of danny's ending. I hate her journey in the show to get there. Not only s8 but after her arc in s7 I just don t get her ending… For her to end up as a villain her relation with jon and the great lords of westeros should have been diferent. But I also think she could have had diferent satisfactory happier endings… 

I hate jon's ending in the show. I just can t see it happening in the books without me hating even more… 

And show sansa and tyrion are completly awful. Book tyrion is acused of several crimes and generally hated by everyone. I have no idea how he can end up as hand or a lord after arriving in westeros supporting danny that ends up being a tyrant… He will surelly make new enemies by suporting danny… And Sansa's last seasons were completly awful. I look at marg and loras relation in the show where they are really tight and doing whatever they can for each other and then I look at sansa's relation with jon (or any of her other siblings) and she lies to him, betrays him, undermines him… In the books I just don t really care about sansa...

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Except he never said that.  He said the same things he has been saying for years including his awful Scarlett O'Hara story.

He said that there will be diferences. He didn t say it will be only about secondary characters… The fact that he then talks about book only characters was to give exemples without clearly stating that x character will have a diferent fate in the book and show.

And you really think that people's reactions to this ending won t affect him? that when writting he won t end up making changes because he can t make certain things make sense? 

I think we just have to look at the 5 year gap to see that not everything grrm plans ends up happening. 

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Beric is a secondary character, who is already dead in the books.  The ending will be the same for the main characters.  Arya will leave Westeros.  Dany, yes, Dany fans, she will turn into a tyrant and die, Jon may not kill her or he might.  Jon will go back to the NW for a life of desolation.  Sansa will rule Winterfell and the North, Bran will be King, Tyrion will keep playing the GOT and the twins will die together.  The Others will be defeated, but I doubt Arya plays any role there whatsoever.  Rickon will die.  

Like I keep saying, people who don't like the ending for their favs are grasping at the straws that GRRM all too willingly provides as part of his equivocating, trollish persona....

Personally I kind of hate most of those endings wether I like the character or not. And I really hate the tragedy understones in danny and jon's endings.

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

You think he gave an interview to 60 Minutes on the last season of the show and he had no idea what it consisted of?  I don't.  We're never going to see the ends of the books no matter what.  I have been saying now for years that he can't finish in 2 more books, and I don't believe he will get another book out after Winds.

He is the one who said several times that he hasn t seen the last season. He is the one that after the show ended started to do damage control saying his ending will have diferences and that winds will be released within the year...

And before you start saying he was only refering to minor characters… He has never expressed so clearly that the ending of the show and the books will be diferent as he did in his post. 

In regards to ending in 2 books… I have thought for several years that winds will be 2 volumes released at the same time. He had hundreds of pages from dance and feast included in the book! With nearly all the characters from the 2 previous books I have no idea how the story is suposed to advance if it doesn t ocupy 2 books…

And if winds are 2 books then he can finish it in a dream of Spring… Otherwise with the pace we have seen in the published chapters and the events that must happen he will need 10 books….

21 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

It's not even remotely possible for TWOW and ADOS to resemble the show. There's too much extra stuff and we know for sure that the show played musical characters with the plot points. They spoke of the endings lining up but the paths differing. 

Bran as king gets sold if you don't treat the Long Night II like the Slightly Cold with a Dusting of Snow 82 Minute "Long" Night and turn it into a joke which undermines the core themes of the books. If Bran fixes the following and most of the 7 Kingdoms see that, there's how Bran becomes King. 

You can t have the books being completly diferent from the show and grrm saying it is a faithfull adaptation… It doesn t work both ways. And there is a lot of things in the show that we know will happen in the books… Like jon and danny meeting each other for example...

And I highly doubt a single character will have the credit of defeating the others. There will be several characters that will be seen as heroes of the long night… And having a war hero become king is exactly what grrm doesn t like about LotR. He wants to know how aragorn rules! Not that he is a good ruler because he is a hero... IF bran becomes king it won t be simply because he has powers...

12 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Jon will go back North for a life of sacrifice and crap.  The only possible change could be to Sansa's story, but if she's not Queen in the North or Lady of Winterfell, I can't imagine her end game unless she dies, which is ever so slightly possible but very unlikely. 

My hope is that sansa ends as lady of the vale and jon as KitN with the new north being composed of wildlings, Giants, skagosi, clansmen, cragnonmen, iron born, bear islanders… Basically a bunch of savages that don t fit with Southern politics. I think it could fit with what happened in the show… I don t think sansa fits in a magical and savage north...

13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He says the same thing he's always said, yes and no and then talks about secondary and tertiary characters.  His 60 Minutes interview where he actually got questioned was much more definitive, you can't really think that he would say GOT was more faithful than 97% of adaptations if they massively changed the ending including who ruled Westeros?  

Dont Forget that he gave that interview before he saw the last season. I think it is safer to say that the first 7 seasons are similar to the books (he even seems to have most of winds written that should end somewhere in the beguining of season 7).

In regards to season 8... I agree there must be similarities to what he has planned. But a lot of what happens there just doesn t fit in the story… If he is really hell bent in ending the story that way we will either never see the end of the books or people will hate them… 

5 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The show made Sansa Queen in the North, they didn't leave it open and unresolved, they gave a definitive end point, Sansa is Queen in the North and Bran is King of Westeros.  I don't see any wiggle room for other interpretations.

They also saud that there is still a NW even though the others are defeated and the wildlings are friendly. What does the NW do? hang out on the Wall? Plot their revenge against the kingdoms that sent them to the Wall?

2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You missed my point. That's not in keeping with GRRM's statement that the book endings will be really close to the show endings. Come on. 

If you want to stretch things out to the point it's meaningless in order to convince yourself that whatever else you want will still happen, go ahead. I'm not doing that so long as GRRM is refusing to backtrack his statement. Period. If you have a problem with the ending, I'm not the one you need to take it up with. 

The point was proving that he could be king without being on the IT...

But I agree that who ends in the IT seems to be too important to change. Unless grrm changes his mind with time, sees people's reactions or when he is actually writting the story decides it doesn t fit like the 5 year gap...

And don t Forget that despite still having 2 books left if winds is similar to season 6 and beguining of season 7 of the show then grrm will have the same problems as the show did to sell us this ending. Besides the fact that a lot of people don t seem to like it...

6 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You could explain anyone away as being king/queen of all kinds of things with that reasoning. Harry Strickland is kind of king of the Golden Company. LF is kind of king of prostitutes, Shae was kind of Queen because of her relationship with Tyrion and his power as Hand...

I think there's some leeway for interpretation of King/Queen roles, but it's got to be something more substantial than that. 

Not really. Bran by being a greenseer becomes the leader of a group of people… Isn t that the definition of a king?

Just now, Lollygag said:

That doesn't explain the king part. Isaac said that came straight from GRRM. 

The greenseers are the leaders of the cotf… They might even be the leaders of the hardcore followers of the old gods… Like an independent faction that the wildlings go to when they want to setle disputes… 

So he is kind of a king...

16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Yeah, I still disagree. The rest of Bran's POV chapters - almost in their entirety - being images and prophesies? How does he even interact? 

And unless GRRM distances himself from when he said the endings were going to be very close and that was a very hard statement from him, I'm sticking with that. He's not king in that cave.  

It makes sense to have bran have visions in that cave about the past or events that are happening now and then talking with the cotf and bloodraven about sending dreams to the right people so that they can defeat the others and help his familly survive.

THAT is the whole point of him becoming the 3ec! Learning and using the powers of the 3ec. And he can do that much better inside the cave than anywhere else.

11 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Given many of the Lords who agreed to crown Robb as their king are no longer Lords or have since sworn new oaths of fealty it does not make sense that they'd agree to follow Jon and reignite another war in the books.

Robb made sense

• He was half Tully
• He was betrothed to a Riverlander
• He saved some of the Lords at Riverrun
• They needed him to stick around while they were at war with the Lannisters
• His army was with him

Jon does not make sense to become their king. Aegon makes more sense as does Dany but unless Jon is riding a dragon I see no reason the Riverland lords are going to want him as King in the books.

Neither jon arryn, ned or hoster tully have any afection for joffrey. However they would have followed him simply because he was robert's heir.

They already gave their vows to follow robb. Them following his heir is a result of the vows they made to robb. The people still resisting in the riverlands used direwolves standards (if I remember right)...

And with uncat and the blackfish it makes sense that they will try to make the riverlands follow robb's heir in order to continue the fight. And I doubt that the riverlords prefer a targaryen to a stark...

3 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The Riverlands swore fealty to the Crown after Robb's death. Robb's heirs claim on the Riverlands is gone, it died with him at the Red Wedding.

All kingdoms also swore fealty to robert and danny thinks she has a claim to the IT...

Given the bad relations between the riverlands and the lannisters under the right conditions they would honnor the will...

2 hours ago, Maia said:

And Bran is the Tully heir after Edmure and his unborn kid - which could bolster his claim to kingship, given that he'd be somebody from a formerly royal House and in control of the 2 important territories - potentially. The Riverlands would make a good royal domain in the future.

Actually, with robb's will legitimazing jon bran isn t the heir...

As robb's heir jon is the one that is in control of the north and whatever domain's robb had in the riverlands (at the moment I am not sure how far his kingdom went).