Lady Rhodes

I had originally thought it was written by Ramsey as well, but I am growing less inclined to believe it. At this point, I’m sure you have heard all the points to the contrary, so can I ask why you don’t find them persuasive? The biggest IMO are the discrepancies between this letter and other letters Ramsey is known to have sent (ink, lack of skin) and the knowledge of Val.

That’s my point - he isn’t doing it altruistically. He is doing it as a way to gain support for the throne. Agree. I don’t expect him to die in battle or at the hands of Brienne of Tarth. and we will see with time who is right with the leeches

I think you are reaching. I don’t think Mel rejoices in burning but feels it necessary. And whether it is Mance or Lord of Bones, it was still burning someone. Completely agree with your sentiment that Stannis is a prick and the sorcery to murder Renly to get the iron throne shows the depths of his depravity. His ambition - that he disguises as simply fighting for his rights - is sending him further into depths of hell. Not necessarily directed at you, @Lord Varys, but to others who don’t see the difference between Stannis’ motivations versus Melisandre’s: Stannis was pissed about Robert giving Storms End to Renly after the rebellion, he lives Shireen but is angry he doesn’t have a son, he wants to be the fabled Last Hero to save mankind so he will finally get the praise he is due…there is more to his quest that simply “wanting his rights”. There is a selfish bent to them, which I do not think is in Melisandre. She earnestly feels she is doing the right thing to protect humanity. Also, Final thought re: Stannis. We keep hearing how he will break before he bends. I think that foreshadows how sacrificing Shireen is going to cause him to ultimately fail and realize the depths he has sunk, hence “breaking”. I don’t doubt it either, but I hesitate to say that it did not play a roll at all.

They burn Lord of Bones, disguised as Mance I don’t see how you can justify re:Gilly baby and Aemon as Jon and Aemon being paranoid. We know that they have no reason to be paranoid because Melisandre DID do it with the leeches. Regardless of whether it was a charade or not, she is spouting off about king’s blood and THEY think she has the power and inclination, so I wouldn’t characterize them as paranoid, but cautious. And for the record, again I am stating that I don’t think Melisandre is evil. I think she is focused on what she perceives as the greater harm and that the means - however tragic and terrible they may be - justify the ends if it stops humanity from being eradicated. Isn’t that the whole point of the Edric/Davos/Melisandre arc? Stannis says to Davos what is the life one boy against a kingdom and Davos says “Everything.” It is the push pull of ends justifying means. also, while you are correct about a lot of Melisandre’s charades, she did birth two shadow demons to kill the person holding Storms End (name escapes me) and Renly, so it is not all charade.

Then what is the purpose of switching Gilly and Mance’s baby? Wasn’t it to avoid such a thing? I agree that it mimics it but I don’t in any way, shape, or form think Stannis is Azor Ahai. Time will tell with this, I suppose but I am inclined to disagree. I would argue that after the Fist and what they heard at Hardhome, they are definitely closing in. BUT I will say this - I don’t think Shireen burning has to happen soon. I am willing to entertain the possibility her resurrection is affiliated with Jon, but I am not married to the idea. It could happen far closer to the end of the book or the whole series.

Re: Euron - fair point. RE: king’s blood - so there has to be a relationship. Would you entertain the thought that perhaps the potency of the magic is correlated to the potency of the relationship? re: leeches - well…I suppose it depends on how you view things. I can see your argument against and you provide good points- if Mel foresaw the deaths and wanted to create an illusion of power. She certainly explains she is not above illusions during her chapter. However, the leeches are part of the whole “power of king’s blood” arc. The arc falls apart without that but of foreshadowing. Now, if your argument is that it is supposed to fall apart because there is no power in king’s blood, fair. But if you do believe there is power in king’s blood, I think we have to admit that the leeches in someway affected/influenced the chain of events. Perhaps made the plans for the assasinations “worked” in the bad luck sense - put Balon on the bridge at the right time, ensured that the correct poison got to Olenna, ensured Robb’s men really wanted to get drunk. You get the idea. re: Mel’s intentions - I don’t think she is inherently evil. As I said before, she is deeply concerned with the Great Other - and if the Great Other is related/affiliated with the Others, then she is right to be concerned! When faced with an existential threat such as the Others, though, what methods and measures is she going to deem necessary? I think GRRM’s arc or part of the arc he intends for Mel is the question “do the ends justify the means?”

I get your general premise here, but I think you are reaching to say that Euron “loves” anyone. thank you for clarifying your point, though. I do see what you mean. I guess my feeling is that Mel is obsessed with King’s blood and her main goal is not Stannis, nor has it ever been. Her main goal is defeating the Great Other. The only reason she is with Stannis is because she thinks he is Azor Ahai. If she believes someone else is, her allegiance is going to shift. I am not saying that her burning Shireen is in order to resurrect Jon, but for another reason she believes furthers her purpose against the Great Other. Now, about your point about sacrifice in blood magic requiring pain/loss/love, a few thoughts. 1)it is not clear how much of a sacrifice Edric would have been. Stannis was going to sacrifice him without much pushback. Stannis seemed to view him as expendable. Like a “oh, I guess that is unfortunate but oh well” and 2) Mel did blood magic with the leeches that possibly led to the deaths of Robb, Joffrey, and Balon. That power/magic did not require a substantial sacrifice. (Which also makes you wonder - if three leeches with kings blood did that, what can a whole body do?)

I actually agree with this wholeheartedly. I am so confused in your logic here. You seem to agree in previous comments that Shireen will burn. I don’t understand how that can be reconciled with your above statement, especially when later on you agree that Stannis burning Shireen makes narrative sense (which I agree). Are you just in disagreement with the idea that the Shireen’s burning is connected with Job’s resurrection? I agree. If Hodor can be a crucial plot, anything seemingly innocuous could be open for speculation.

That was my point. Not that it would necessarily benefit Jon. I can’t imagine given the scale and scope and heart of Martin’s writing that magic always works how it is intended. He work is full of unintended consequences, and I don’t see how magic is any different.

I suppose that is where we can rest in our agreement: magic may not work how you intend it.

Mirri Maz Duur, Drogo, and Dany seems like unintended side effects to me. You could argue that Mirri did know what she was doing and so it was not unintended, but magic like prophecy is a double edge blade.

I actually agree with you. Perhaps where we diverge is that I am open to the possibility that the unintended consequence is that it affects Jon’s resurrection. I don’t think it is going to benefit Stannis at all.

I don’t disagree that there is plenty of textual evidence for Mel resurrecting Jon without sacrifice because of Beric and Thoros. But I do think that Shireen is going to be sacrificed and I think it is going to have unintended results.

@Morte Agree about going to the Iron Islands- I hope it doesn’t happen. I don’t see what purpose it would serve. The Iron Islanders are the linchpins in other plots, connecting them (Asha and Theon with Stannis, Sam and Euron in Oldtown but also Wall through Sam, and Victorian in Slaver’s Bay)

It would be a huge inner conflict for him, which makes it all the more likely. I realize that Jon and his possible resurrection is a heavily contested topic, first on if it will happen and second with how it was depicted on the show. But I feel there is a knee-jerk reaction to dismiss anything the show did as nonsense when there are things that it probably did get right or damn close. I think Mel resurrecting Jon is one of them. Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth: 1. Mel’s chapter in Dance is incredibly important and it is clear she knows/senses something is up with Jon. She is not omniscient, but she knows that there is something there. 2. I think that her resurrecting Jon and Jon warging into Ghost are not mutually exclusive concepts. 3. Unlike the show, Shireen and Selyse are still at the Wall. 4. Shireen burning is near destined to happen. It has been too heavily foreshadowed to not happen. 5. Jon has enough Wildings and Night Watch fellows that support him to protect his long enough for Mel to do it. (You only need a few people barricades in a room) OR in a way similar to Dany in Game, he is in the pyre, too, but rises unburnt. 6. So, does Shireen get burnt for Jon or for another purpose and Jon’s resurrection is the unintended side effect? Also, how does Patchface factor into this?

I've been thinking about this as well. I tried to make a chart with the various areas and the characters involved to see where there may be some intersection, but I am failing. It has been too long since I read Feast and Dance to recall the intricacies of all the players in all the areas. Here is a rough sketch. If anyone would care to add, it would be nice to come up with a running list of storylines. It has been so long, I know I have forgotten some. North of the Wall - Bran and company; the Others; Wildings; The Weeper; Coldhands; Benjen Stark The Wall - Various Night's Watch Factions; Melisandre; Jon and Ghost; Gilly's Baby; Alys Karstark and Magnar of Thenn; Shireen, Selyse, and Patchface; The Queen's Men; Tycho Nestoris The North - Stannis, Northern Clans; Various Northern Factions; Davos; Rickon and Osha; Jeyne Poole; Asha; Theon The Riverlands - Brienne; Jaime; Lady Stoneheart and the Brotherhood; Nymeria and the Wolf Pack; Blackfish; Lannister Armies; Edmure Tully; Jeyne Westerling The Iron Islands - Euron; Victarion; Theon; Asha; Aeron Damphair - I am hesitant to even make this a storyline area because their threads already heavily intersect with other storylines Oldtown - Sam; Gilly; Mance's son; dead Aemon; Marwyn; Maesters; Maester Walgrave; Euron; Aeron, Pyat Pree/Qarth Warlocks; Euron's fleet; Leyton Hightower; The Mad Maid; Garlan and Wylas Tyrell; The faceless man/ Pate; Alleras the Sphinx The Vale - Littlefinger; Sansa; Sweetrobin; Yohn Royce; The Lords Declarant; Harry the Heir; Mountain Clans; Ser Shadrach King's Landing - Cersei; Tommen; High Sparrow; Faith Militant; Margaery; Olenna; Ser Robert Strong; Loras Tyrell; Qyburn; The Small Council Dorne - Arianne; Doran; The Sandsnakes; Darkstar; Trystane; Areo Hotah The Stormlands - Arianne; Aegon; Jon Con; Duck; Septa Lemore Braavos - Arya; Faceless Men; Tycho Nestoris; Raff the Sweetling Free Cities (Pentos, Volantis, Qarth) - The tiger uprising; Ilyrio Mopatis; Xaro Xhaon Daxos; Urrathon Nightwalker; Quaithe; Tattered Prince; Benerro Slaver's Bay/Meereen - Wise Masters; Mother's Men; Unsullied; Yunish Army; Astapori Army; Tyrion; Jorah; Penny; Brown Ben Plumm; Barristan; Victarion; Marwyn; Moqorro; Tattered Prince; remains of Quentyn's crew; Viserion; Rhaegal; Quaithe; Dany Dothraki Sea - Dany; Dothraki; Dosh Khaleen; Drogon I know I am forgetting things, so add where you will.

Emphatically, I disagree about Dany's ability to command the Dothraki. Take Jorah in Game: Precisely because the Dothraki are not mindless followers is why they are going to follow Dany. Simply seeing her with Drogon is going to give them pause, but it depends on how long Drogon stays with her, i.e. does he fly away again? If she keeps Drogon at her side, she will have a lot easier time persuading the Dothraki to follow her. They aren't going to be able to deny her strength, or what they view as strength. This may be a Dream thought rather than a Winds thought but: On Winds as a whole, of particular interest to me is Martin's "throwaway" lines that at first glance don't appear to mean anything, only for them to be pregnant with meaning later on. I have been trying to find some of these rich lines to see if I can catch things that I may have missed. Here are some things that I found over time. 1. I believe Euron Greyjoy is Urrathon Nightwalker from Qarth. We know glass candles were burning in Urrathon Nightwalker's house, and we have strong reason to suspect that Euron has a glass candle. We know that Euron captured Pyat Pree within a fortnight of Dany leaving Qarth, which puts him in relative proximity to her and to Qarth. If he has been exiled from the Iron Islands for years and has been sailing on the silence, it makes sense that he does have some homebase, so to speak. In the World of Ice and Fire book, there is a legend of Urrathon Goodbrother, an Iron Island king whose first act was to order the old king's sons to be put to death, which is oddly similar to Euron. I tend to not use the World book as textual backing, but I think it does add a tidbit that isn't needed but certainly hints at Euron being Urrathon. 2. In Melisandre's chapter in Dance, she mentions that the strongest glamors are built of things from the person who is being imitated. She specifically notes a bag of finger bones. Davos lost his bag of finger bones at Blackwater, but something about her bringing this little tidbit up made me wonder - does she have someone moving about, impersonating Davos? I will be the first to admit this is a little tinfoily, but I would welcome thoughts on this in particular. 3. Something that started bothering me more after I read Fire and Blood was that the Hightowers are oddly nonpresent given how much they used to figure into Westerosi politics. So I started looking up references to the Hightowers. We know that Gerold/the White Bull was Lord Commander of Aerys' Kingsguard. We know that Jorah was married to Lord Leyton's youngest daughter Lynesse. But the part that gets me is when we learn that Lord Leyton has not descended the Hightower in almost a decade and is locked up there with the Mad Maid reading spell books. Then there is the throwaway line about the myth you can see the Wall from the top of the Hightower. Maybe that is not a myth? Or maybe they are connected? I have wondered if the Wall falling may have to do with Euron's attack on Oldtown. Perhaps if the Hightower falls, so does the Wall? Who is the Mad Maid? 4. Marwyn - We know he has been to Asshai and knew Mirri Maz Duur. There are frequent references to him with Qyburn, which is unsettling. There is also a throwaway line when Asha returns to the Iron Islands for the Kingsmoot. She is talking to Rodrik and he mentions he is reading a book that Marwyn wrote after having found some pages from Signs and Portents, prophecies from before the Doom. A final one is that there were rumors he killed a man with his bare hands - oddly specific. Not just killed a man, but with his hands. Is it just a descriptor or is it hinting at something else? 5. Archmaester Walgrave - he thinks Pate is Cressen, who died in the prologue to Clash. Then there is his lock box: I am sure I will think of more, but these are just a few thoughts that have been filling my mind. I wonder how they may apply to Winds or the future. 4.

My husband mentioned years ago that he found it a distinct possibility that Danerys ends up with NO dragons (at least at some point) in Winds or Dream. He logic was the horn, but he also thought Bran would warg into one and Melisandre may take one. Interesting to posit how she would react if she lost them all.

Oh, I agree. That was my point, though perhaps I did not explain well. Her lack of cruelty is what I think makes her an interesting foul. That is the quality they do not share.

That would make Arianne an interesting foil for Cersei as well, as Cersei is not a decent who is also in over her head (the reinvigoratation of the Faith Militant still makes me smack my head) They both think themselves savvy players, but they lack the judgment and the ability to put aside personal grievances in order to rule effectively. Also, given Martin’s affinity for dialing up historical events, the Medici comparison could be apt.

This is one of the best, if not the best, episode since Season 4. But series wide, it was not a 10. I gave it an 8. I have watched the show and read the books. At the time, the scenes that I initially disliked were the plodding journey's through the kingdoms: Arya and the Hound, Arya and Gendry and Hotpie, Brienne and Pod, Brienne and Jaime, etc. But now I find those some of the most fulfilling scenes. Especially Brienne and Jaime (and I know I am not in the minority there.) So, I liked the small nature of this episode. It was people who were convinced they were going to die, so they were coping with that realization in different ways. I thought it was beautiful in the slowness.

That's exactly the point. She cannot admit that her father is an evil man and blame Jaime for murdering him. But she has been raised her entire life to despise Jaime. The test? Will she be able to temper her feelings and emotions with reason and knowledge? I get your point, but if she is very upset and angry, she may want to escape, even momentarily.

I agree. These two events will show a lot. I am a bit concerned that the reason they had Jon ride a dragon now was to add "proof to the pudding" of his Targaryen heritage. In that, Dany may try to leave and take her dragons with her out of anger, only for Rhaegal not to leave because he bonded with Jon during the joy ride.

Thank you! Yes, it comes across as ingenuinous.

Well put. There was a respect to tell him the truth and allow him to process without criticism. Someone mentioned above regarding Sam's feelings - I don't think it was his dad dying that got him, but his brother. I agree that I am happy the "burning Tarly shoe" finally dropped. It has occurred to be that the last few seasons have had the same issue - the plot points aren't necessarily bad, but they lack detail in execution. For what it is worth, I think the chief problem last season (and, thus, sadly, what I think will be a problem this season) is the decision to make it only 7 episodes. They could have packed three episodes with dialogue that makes things real: more accurate travel, a dinner scene or two between Jon and Dany, some more scenes with Sansa and Arya and Bran, etc. I think about the relationships we are invested in - Arya and the Hound, Jaime and Brienne, and those relationships were not made through spectacle but through plodding through the riverlands. Let's bring back the full length seasons and the plodding. (Obviously, it will never happen now, but I think you all get my point)