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Lady Rhodes

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  1. All is well. We've all done it at some point, myself included! Again, no apology needed. I did the same thing in this same thread. It is so easy to do! Out of curiosity, why? Oh, most definitely. It was not a matter of "if" but "when"
  2. Hmm. You and I have very different takes on it. I think when (because most likely it is when) Jon is resurrected (presumably by Melisandre) he and Catelyn are going to have a pivotal life experience shared by....a total of 3 people? I'm cautiously optimistic that they will join forces. As we have discussed, death changes these characters. If I am correct and your final motivations are sharpened, a desire to avenge Winterfell from the Boltons is a powerful motivator.
  3. You aren't wrong. The one thing that I preferred in the TV version was during her conversation with Talisa where she was making a the prayer wheel (?) and she tells the story about Jon having the pox and she was praying by his bedside and felt awful for how she treated him and how she promised the gods she would love him and treat him as her own, but when he was healed she could keep her promise. She was asking herself if all of the horror that befalls her family is the result of her not loving a motherless child. It showed so much development, reflection on her mistakes that I thought made the character more. Alas, this is not textual canon, so irrelevant to our debate, but just an addition that I enjoyed. Agreed.
  4. Thank you! I would argue, as a mother myself, that we are often irrational when it comes to our children. Probably some residual evolutionary trait to keep wolves and lions (haha!) away from our children.
  5. I think she is a very complex character. Her motivation is "jealous possessiveness" in that she is hurt that, to her knowledge, her husband cheated on her and had another kid and he brought the kid home to live with them. Yeah, that would become a sore subject. Again, not at all Jon's fault and if she has forgiven Ned, she needs to suck it up and embrace Jon. I am not defending her treatment of Jon, which I think is abhorrent. If she took one minute to actually get to know Jon, she would understand that he cares deeply for his siblings. But in the class and feudal system of the 7 Kingdoms, her point of view isn't really strange or different or odd. Dorne is the exception to this rule. And in this view, he is a direct threat to her children. For all of her faults, Catelyn deeply loves her children. As a mother myself, I can understand the motivation to ensure their well being. When examining it this way, I think a blanket categorization of "inner ugliness" is not accurate. Everyone in this story has an inner ugliness, the "grey", that makes them problematic is some way. Martin did a good job at creating deeply flawed characters that mimic real people.
  6. I feel you there. Word. I love Arya, but this is true. I could definitely see them being catalysts for each other (or at the very least, LS for Arya) to find peace. I'd argue that it is a huge difference. There is a difference between Robin Hood and his Merry Men (who I would be willing to bet the BwB are based on) and vigilantism. I only watched the first couple of seasons of Arrow, but (and this is of course an extreme summary and paraphrase) he is seeking revenge and investigating problems, but he is killing people to do it. At one point, he is finally questioned on it, basically "you are being detective, judge, jury, and executioner. by killing these people, how does that make you any better?" it makes him vow not to kill, which becomes a whole other thing and detracts from the point I am trying to make. I think you get the gist of what I am trying to say though with Robin Hood ethos versus Vigilante ethos. It is...I was thinking that was earlier in the series, not post Stoneheart. This seems to lend credence to the theory that the group has split. Obviously Randyll doesn't know that Beric is dead, but still. Reading the rest of your post, you make some good points. It has been too long since I have given this a close read. I am going to need to revisit some things!
  7. Fair points. I concede that it is possible Mormont and Glover do not have the will. But I am still not seeing how it could have gotten to the Mirraham?
  8. Woah, woah, woah. I am pretty sure that the will is with Mormont and Glover at Grey Waterwatch. What makes you think it is in Oldtown on the Mirraham?
  9. This is a very interesting parallel. This also places Lady Stoneheart in an interesting predictament because, as a previous poster mentioned, she hates bastards yet she know has one in her employ (for lack of a better phrasing). While I have steadfastly argued for my belief that death and resurrection sharpens the last motives of characters, part of me wonders if this will, for lack of a better word, bond Jon and Catelyn. (I am operating under the presumption that Jon will be resurrected by Melisandre here) A shared experience, if you will.
  10. That's a fair criticism. I believe GRRM said that she has a large role to play, so I think there is something to it.
  11. I have grown very confused with this point. I don't think anyone said that he was with the Brotherhood. I think it is an interesting thought, but I have not seen anything conclusive. I think the point about Lyanna and Howland is not substantial. I have speculated about an "inner circle" that is trying to bring about the Prince that Was Promised Prophecy, and Richard Lonmouth being part of that is interesting to me.
  12. I am interested in the theory of Lem being Lonmouth. There is also a passing reference (I believe from Jeyne Heddle, but not positive, and this is a paraphrase) that his cloak could be the stained white of a Kingsguard. Makes me wonder if he is one of Aerys seven. I still do not understand what you are saying about the Blackfish. How is he supposed to know about the Hound and Arya? When would he have discovered this information?
  13. @Curled Finger Yep, he is listed! I agree, this shoe will drop at some point. I would agree with this statement. I agree that he has become disenchanted with the mission. Perhaps it is the sunk cost fallacy- he has already invested time, plus loyalty, to the brotherhood. He would no longer be welcome at court. Where else would he go? The other option is that he is trying to check her or the remaining brotherhood's worst impulses, trying to prevent them from doing something truly heinous. I completely agree. There is a lot going on that we don't realize. I do think that it is possible that some of the group have splintered off, but I think that many of them are on "missions" so to speak. Perhaps there is a group looking for Arya in the Saltpans/Vale/Crownlands area, but as I explained in my initial post, I don't think that is likely. I don't think they know that it was Arya and I think their focus is the North. Why do you think Anguy is at Riverrun? I had not heard that before. You are not wrong. Before she died she was willing to sue for peace. But upon her resurrection, I think that goes out the window. That said, revenge can take many forms. Killing Freys and Boltons (and Ironborn, I'd argue, too), yes, but I think she'd be satisfied by a variety of outcomes. I don't think that finding Arya would bring out the good in her, more that she would use Arya to further her plots for revenge because that is now what has consumed her. I have speculated that Areo Hotah may find out whilst in Dorne what happened at the Tower of Joy. What a twist for him, of all people, being the one to unravel that mystery! Can you provide text to support this? I wanted to double check because my understanding is the humanitarian mission went by the wayside and they are now in pursuit of a vengeance mission. I have looked for your quote about the orphanage, but I only find references to Lem trying to find "the hound"/Biter in the Saltpans. I think that we are in agreement more than appears. I agree with this. I think the Brotherhood, thematically, is an exploration of the fall of man. How noble their cause (welfare of the commonfolk!) yet how quickly it decayed and rotted. I don't think it is hypocrisy, though, as much as it is the inevitably that war is hell and it touches even the noblest of causes. Were they outlaws before? Absolutely. But that was a badge they could wear with pride. What they have become though is much less so. I don't know if you watch this or are familiar, but the CW television show Arrow explored this in the earlier seasons with vigilantism versus common criminal. That is what I feel with the Brotherhood. She isn't carving herself a kingdom. She is fighting for revenge. Very different. Which is why I don't think they ever saw his grave. Tyrells? Why? Because they married Margaery to Joffrey and Tommen? When did he know? I just did some rereading, and I see that you are right. The Hound was following them and they in turn followed him. But there is one issue - they think he may have Arya but they never mention a boy or girl being with the Hound when they are questioning Merrett Frey. This leads me to believe that they lost Arya way ahead of time.
  14. I think that is the point. War is hell and tarnishes everyone. Nothing is noble. I completely agree with your analysis of BwB under Beric versus Stoneheart, but I think that the "fall of man", so to speak, is the point.
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