Rose of Red Lake

Mayhaps the Targaryens were not so close to gods as they had believed Oh sure, this quote, which is part of a larger passage dedicated to how Targaryens see themselves, is just thrown in there for no reason at all. They actually think of themselves as average blokes at the pub. “the death of their beloved daughter must have seemed especially cruel, for it struck at the very heart of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism.” We have scenes where Targaryens are shocked by the realization that they aren't infallible to illness or above "common men," like the one where Jaehaerys asks "how could this happen?" But it's all just for show since the Targaryens never believe their own hype or anything. OK. Don't strain yourself with that reach. DiCaprio didn't have a family history of hubris or egomania and he wasn't ruling over other people that he had JUST conquered in that scene. If Daenerys thinks she is a god, its not a flippant thing. And it directly correlates with the line in F&B. And no other character but Daenerys says this in their thoughts - not Jon who spends his time in high places either. She thinks she's a god high above everyone in the air, and will probably feel like one on a dragon too. It's not like the author would be slowly building toward anything about her views on Targaryen supremacy...that would just be s i l l y . . . ( What does it take for people to take villain foreshadowing seriously? ) They think they are different and thus above other humans. They created this hierarchy and they believe it themselves, as we see in countless examples. They also exaggerate their differences and specialness and believe it. Daenerys thinking she is fire made flesh is another example in addition to her thinking about her specialness for immunity. They're not a separate race, they're not elves, and they're not fundamentally different than other humans. Who just happened to be Daenerys namesake? Not like the author would be saying anything of importance about this. People can talk broadly about a dynasty. When historians write about "The Ptolemies" in general we know they're not talking about identical clones ffs. "People carrying the blood of the dragon" wow...you really believe the hype. The author left it ambiguous, she could have or not. She certainly had a lot of symptoms for some kind of infection at the end of the novel. But if she did not, her social status is a better explanation for resistance than "her magical fire blood burned all the pestilence away" It's pretty clear GRRM distilled everything that is wrong about nobility in its most extreme form and gave that to the wacko geckos of Westeros. This makes no sense: "Even if Dany were sick....and yet she never got sick."

Kill all nobility...viola problem solved. Like GRRM would ever make it that simple. I've noticed how Targ fans are usually the ones to take on this ridiculous, simplified, and unrealistic stance, and I get the feeling it's not out of concern for any real equality. What I hear is, if Dany can't have the throne, no one can. More likely, people can choose a king or queen, over another. And if the loser doesn't respect that, then it's tyranny. I think that's a good start and also, realistic.

They absolutely see themselves that way???? Here are two passages where it directly states that Targaryens themselves believe they are close to gods: And Targaryens aren't a separate race, but they believe their "fire in the blood" gives them special powers: So if they're not mortal men what do they think they are? Immortal? This is all superstitious junk and also quite Nazi coded. If the Targaryens actually had diseases resistance, this sentence would be true, and the Targaryens would be in-universe superhumans, better than "mortal men and women." The author would be hardwiring that into the narrative. But the author also singled out little Daenerys I to die of a "pestilence and contagion." Hmm...I wonder what he was saying here? Targaryens want to be praised as a group so we should be able to critique them as a group. So I'll continue to do that. I don't understand why people have such a hard on for a bunch of Neros and Caligulas with dragons. Maybe one good king out of the whole mess - not worth it. They can't handle that much power. The books aren't giving us a list of DSM codes or population health statistics. People in-universe are just guessing about what they have or don't have. Daenerys could be infertile due to inbreeding. Infertility is an invisible disease. All we can do is speculate. "Have you ever seen a dragon with the flux?" is a statement loaded with hubris. If Theon or Victarion had made that boast, you can bet they would be shitting their guts out by the end of the novel. Is the author saying that yes, his special precious Daenerys does actually have better genes than everyone else, and that she is correct about Targaryen supremacy, as she is about most things? Puke. While it's not clear if Dany got the flux or not, it seems like the author is begging us to examine her statements, since they don't even make sense. She can't remember being sick (and I can't remember having the chicken pox), and therefore, Targaryens are immune to disease? What?!? Come on man this is so basic...

Quote 1: “Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.” - Daenerys, ASOS Quote 2: “In death he looked even younger than he had with blade in hand. “A boy,” said Dany. “He was only a boy.” “Six-and-ten,” Hizdahr insisted. “A man grown, who freely chose to risk his life for gold and glory. No children die today in Daznak’s, as my gentle queen in her wisdom has decreed.” - Daenerys, ADWD Quote 3: "A boy came, younger than Dany, slight and scarred, dressed up in a frayed grey tokar trailing silver fringe. His voice broke when he told of how two of his father's household slaves had risen up the night the gate broke. One had slain his father, the other his elder brother. Both had raped his mother before killing her as well. The boy had escaped with no more than the scar upon his face, but one of the murderers was still living in his father's house, and the other had joined the queen's soldiers as one of the Mother's Men. He wanted them both hanged. I am queen over a city built on dust and death. Dany had no choice but to deny him. She had declared a blanket pardon for all crimes committed during the sack. Nor would she punish slaves for rising up against their masters."- Daenerys, ADWD Several questions here - First, is everyone who wears a tokar a slave master? Or, is the tokar the garment worn by free people, some of which are slave owners, some are not? Second, at what age is a person in Slavers Bay responsible for slavery? Third, would a person wearing a tokar, who is 12 years old, have been killed in the sack? If so, did Dany sanction child murder? (quotes 1, 2, 3) Fourth, if she thinks 16 is a child, where did she come up with the number 12 before this? (referring to quote 1 and 2) Finally, would you consider Mirri Maz Duur a slave who rose up against her master? (referring to Quote 3)

Targaryens can kill more people more efficiently than other people. Are people that fly fighter jets or drop bombs better than people who dont or can't? It doesn't really justify a hierarchy in all aspects of life.

Well Targaryens didn't think they were just kings, they saw themselves as demi-gods and a separate group of people above all the other humans. We as readers don't have to agree with their own views about their place in that hierarchy. It's called critical thinking. Different...to what end. Probably not so different that they are legitimate superhuman or a master race. They're often proven incorrect about that; this thinking turns into hubris. You can tell in F&B...the Targaryens are a classic Ozymandias or Icarus story. And it's interesting that you talk about in "general" about Targaryens when their differences are framed neutrally, but people can't do the same thing when describing their negative qualities? hmmm Why would you trust anything coming from their own house that serves to justify their own superiority? Why aren't you more of a skeptic? Dont be a dupe. Eh, I doubt that too, it's just more master race b.s.. Plus there are infectious diseases that are asymptomatic. Daenerys could have a ton of STI's from fucking Daario and she might never know. If you judged all POV's according to their own beliefs as "textual evidence," there would be no room for unreliable narrator as a literary device. What a bland book that would be.

Having magical races is fine, but it gets into creepy territory when there's a hierarchy involved. Targaryens rank themselves above other people and they just happen to be correct? Uh, sorry, I'm not going to agree with that b.s. It would be more practical if Targaryens had resistance to certain diseases like the Europeans did with smallpox, but not ALL ILLNESSES and certainly not true for "all the inbred Targaryens." Also using Dany's memory as a basis for an argument about her own disease resistance is...questionable.

Only the pasty white people who think they're better than everyone, having resistance to disease? It's right out of Nazi German fake science race theory. Hitler talks about less "resistance to disease" in Mein Kampf for his argument for why Aryans shouldn't marry with Jews. So if Targaryens actually had resilience to disease, the author would be taking Hitler's bonkers ideas and making it a reality in his universe. I don't think he's doing that.

Your critique is that not enough women went on dragon riding mass murder rides like the men? Seems...odd...but ok. Would you prefer the word critique? It arrives at the same idea, that people with god-complexes and supremacist ideas will get checked on it. And it's normal to talk about individuals and groups (houses) at the same time.

"Targ suckers" ha! I think the goal is to avoid turning a cold war into a hot one...but I guess they didnt care about mutual destruction. A civil war with dragons ended in the destruction of dragons, the basis for Targaryen power, so it seems like they lose in the long run, no matter what they do.

It doesn't have to be radiation, any toxic pollution will do. Asshai looks like an example of people trying to live in post-apocalyptic habitat destruction, while Valyria must be so bad they dont even try.

I think this is because the smart thing is to not use your dragons and only keep them around as an implied threat. Barth states this and you can tell its in line with GRRM's own viewpoint on use of dragons. When dragons are used, more problems are caused later or they arrive at a stalemate.

I had no issues with how Targaryens were portrayed in Fire and Blood. It made the majority of them look ridiculous and at times the author appeared to be mocking them.

Dany and Viserys are wrong. Its an example of unreliable narrator. It's part of a strategy to justify their own position as "better" and to obtain supremacy over others. At best its narcissistic and at worst its coded as racist eugenics. Dany asks with "Have you ever seen a dragon with the flux?" and some argue that we do at the end of the novel.

I think her fate is sealed with her house words.

It's a stand in for a pollution zone. Valyria is toxic and a warning. Think Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. There would be consequences for anyone who went there.

Petite authoritarians abound in this fandom...

Hey dont cut off the best part of that making kings line -- SANSA STARK IS MY LAST CHANCE FOR HONOR

Yup, I agree it is just part of the setting, it is not a real moral crusade or the point of the whole story. It's not about "Dany the abolitionist," otherwise she would be staying in Meereen and making it her life's work. But we know she's not. So what is it really about? It's probably more complex than "dany good/slavers bad"

The endings sort of make sense - my main issue is Jon at the NW again. It's puzzling because Sansa would just pardon him, the Wall no longer serves a purpose, why the wildlings would go further North -- a lot of it is illogical. I would have had more Stark scenes and more Lannister scenes. The Starks only have 1 scene together and then 1 at the end! After all this time of waiting them to get back together?? Also, I would have had Cersei and Sansa meet again for the last time--that scene would have been amazing. Maybe not have Sansa actually apologize to Tyrion about the wedding (wtf??) I would have had more scenes of Jon actually reacting to his parentage. We know more about how Dany, Tyrion, and Varys feels about it than how Jon himself or his cousin-siblings feel about this MASSIVE news. I would have book!Dany's hubris and haughtiness shine through more. Have her mention the blood of the dragon but also make sure audiences know what that means (blood purity and supremacy), have her talk about how they don't get sick (and have her be wrong), have her talk about how she feels like a god high above everyone else (like she thinks in ASOS), have her going on and on about Usurper's dogs.

Not really. The majority of Northern houses sat out the fight. Bolton only had Umber and Karstark. It was really stupid. Jon and Dany make everything about the story ten times more cringeworthy.

"In effort to show how strong he was and how you defied him at your peril, Joffrey executes Eddard Stark...and this is a colossal mistake. Sometimes the harshest decision is not always the wisest." - GRRM

“They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it’s just a short step to carrying off their daughters too...He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide...The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them . . . but he should pity them as well.” - Brienne V, AFFC He could have done anything, that was why it was dangerous. Just wanting a song softens the situation again.

I've seen similar complains about Jon and just about everyone except Dany. I think Cersei is making it this far in the books because Cersei and Dany are meant to be paralleling characters. I just think Dany was the main focus of everything in S8.

She's often trying to make unromantic, terrifying, or dangerous situations lighter and more happy than they already are, so I think the reality of the situation is that whatever Sandor wanted to do, it was actually unromantic, terrifying, and dangerous. And I dont mean "dangerous" in a bad boy kinky way like some SanSan's see it.