IFR

Have it your way. If you feel like insulting people is the best way to approach these conversations, there's nothing I can do to stop you. I think writing can be dumb without the writers or those who enjoy the writing being dumb. I've expressed this sentiment many times before, and I am happy to express it again here and now. I don't think you're dumb for liking what occurred in this show - so there you have an explicit statement to override anything you may have inferred from my words. Edit: I'm pretty sure my only personal comment about the writers is when I said that I found Sara Hess to be a perfectly capable writer.

@DMC I mean, what more can be said? We disagree. I do not find your points at all persuasive, and it seems you are not moved by my points. Also, you may not be aware of it, but calling my remarks "delusional" and accusing me of "whining" is aggressive language. I appreciate that you're invested in this conversation, but this conversation should be fun, not hostile. We're having a nerdy discussion about some minor scene in a pretty decent tv show. It's not worth being passionate about. At any rate, I personally have become bored of the topic, and seeing how we are at an impasse, it was fun while it lasted, but that's it for me. I look forward to future discussions!

We know from the story that is written that attempts are made on their lives by the Greens in the path of civil war. Even without the aid of knowing the future narrative, this seems all but inevitable, especially with Baela, since she's daughter to the Greens' rival (Daemon) and a dragon rider, which of course makes her a threat. We can only speculate on how things would occur if Rhaenys had ended the Greens. You speculate that this is a perilous decision that would haunt Rhaenys, and presumably extend to her kin, but this is a meta narrative commentary, and I don't think it's a reasonable estimate that such a deed performed by Rhaenys would have consequences that extend to her grandchildren - either from a meta narrative viewpoint, or in the minds of the people of the realm. As opposed to the Red Wedding, which was a conspiracy of the entire Frey household this would have been an individual act by Rhaenys, so who can say that the consequences would extend beyond her? It is, again, speculation about a fantasy world. A scenario where multiple factions have nukes is entirely different than a scenario where only one faction has nukes. You hypothesize that the world would not respond with nukes if the US employed nukes against Iraq. I agree. But the manner in how the world responds would be very different with other countries possessing nukes than if they didn't, even if nukes aren't used in their response. Which is why I don't think the scenarios are comparable. Even the bombing of Japan is only loosely comparable because attitudes of WW2 and this show are so dramatically different. It would be more like giving Henry VIII nukes. Would he risk outraging the world by nuking other countries and going on a bloody path of conquest and forcing all to submit to him? I wouldn't doubt it. She already ought to have a blackened reputation. She butchered many innocent people with her dragon - possibly dozens, maybe hundreds. The Greens have control, there wouldn't be a favorable spin here. By destroying the Greens, the Blacks would have control and the narrative would be in their hands. They would have absolute dominance, and power to quell opposition. But anyway, this is once again speculating on a fantasy world. I doubt we're going to find agreement here. And really, all of this is a detour conversation when the main issue is that Rhaenys shouldn't have burst into the room in the first place. That is the truly objectionable part of all of this. Whether she should have followed through and killed the Greens after that initial insane decision is a minor topic of speculation. It was certainly dramatically unsatisfying, whatever one's opinions of if it was good sense.

So her grandchildren can rule. She doesn't place the same importance on legacy as her husband does, but even she has some desire for the security and inheritance of her progeny. As opposed to letting Alicent live, where she knows it is entirely possible that the Greens will try to murder Daemon and his children. I don't think your example is comparable. Why compare a situation where many different factions have nukes to one where in a single stroke only one faction has nukes? Well, ok. I disagree obviously.

One country unilaterally controlling nukes I think would have a significant impact in any geopolitical structure. The US bombed Japan into submission quite readily. The geopolitics quickly changed when the Soviets developed nukes only a few years later. People can account for Rhaenys' behavior as one of morality, but I cannot see it as a decision of good sense. If she toasted Alicent and company, she could return to the Blacks. I very much doubt that Daemon or Rhaenyra would care at all that Rhaenys murdered family. Nobles might be angered, but Rhaenyra would assume power. If called for Rhaenys could be exiled for a few years. The Blacks would have enough supporters that with dragons everyone else would be cowed. Rhaenys granddaughters could then be married to the Strong children, and Rhaenys legacy would be secured. Rhaenyra and Daemon could then work to stifle any discontent, and at some point Rhaenys could return. But this is a fictional world. It's hard enough to speculate on the real world, much less a fantasy one. But to me the clear and practical path would have been to kill Alicent and her family.

You're free to have your own views, and that's fine. I personally find that life is not black and white and prefer writers who strive to write characters as humans are: with complexity. And so I appreciate when these kind of observations are made.

That's not what she literally said. She said what I paraphrased. It doesn't excuse the action, but provides an insight into a problematic social structure. This is what is called a nuanced view. Someone can engage in a terrible action without direct malice. It doesn't obviate the action or its impact, but it does provide insight behind the action.

That's neither what she's saying nor what I'm saying.

It seems in touch to me. You can have two individuals who have radically different views of the nature of an interaction that took place. This is very common in sexual situations, unfortunately. I think this is a social epidemic that has proved very hard to address.

Otto: Ser Cole, it occurs to me that we take measures so that our prisoners do not escape. What is one method Targaryens are notorious about using against others? Cole: Dragons? Otto: Precisely. See that the dragons are guarded. This is a conversation those who aren't extremely incompetent would have. This is exactly what I was thinking. Even more, within this very show a dragon was "stolen" by Aemond, so this is something that should always be considered. You guard your nukes. That should go without saying, really. I think this should have been even more of an imperative, because apparently dragons breaking from their confines is super easy, barely an inconvenience. Leaving this point as a vulnerability makes the Greens seem needlessly stupid. If this were by design, fine, but it really seems that the writers went for a showstopper and didn't consider or care about all it entailed. Random internet nonsense. Everything is a scandal it seems. The media latches on to any vague thread of a controversy and amplifies it for clicks. Hess to me seems like a perfectly capable writer. I think these misfires were a fault of the writers collectively in the planning stage. I think this episode did have a lot of good writing, even with those unfortunate moments (I'd say Mysaria, warrior of justice, was another point I really disliked).

Here is what makes it bad writing. First, the improbability of the event. Rhaenys should have died pulling that stunt. She should have either been captured by guards at the pit, or crushed against the roof of the pit as the dragon initially tried to break through, or crushed by the collapsing stone. Her plan required her to be incredibly lucky. It speaks to a character's lack of intelligence if they go with the plan that should be all but impossible to succeed. At no point did the writers in any way try to cover themselves by coming up with a reason for her to not use the standard exit of the dragon pit, so presumably that would be available. Even if it was closed and guarded in any way, no way would it have been more difficult than vertically crashing through the several tons of stone. And there were many guards at the king's ceremony, of course. Second, Rhaenys deliberately chose to kill many, many people for the chance at a stare down. For all she knew, before bursting through the floor, one of her relatives might have moved from the last time she saw them, possibly to a point where they fell through the collapsing floor and died - also, the entire floor could have collapsed (a real risk) potentially killing everyone at the ceremony. So she actively risked their lives for a stare down, when she could have simply flown off. So much for her consideration for her family. Ultimately, she killed a bunch of men, women (including mothers) and children in a high risk maneuver to randomly glare at some people. With such a dumb, high stakes maneuver, if she was intelligent at all she would have roasted them. One can argue that not doing so is consistent with her character because she wouldn't want to risk family (even though she is now sparing those who are of direct risk to her family, and as pointed out early, she already put her family's lives in jeopardy by flying through the floor). But the writers manufactured this sequence. They put Rhaenys in a situation which makes her needlessly sadistic and an idiot because they wanted a shocking scene at the end of episode 9. It deflates any sense that the throne was "stolen" from her because she's morally on the level of the likes of Gregor Cleagane or the Mad King, and the realm was incredibly lucky to have Viserys in power instead of her. It didn't have to happen this way, and it's poor form and the writers' fault that they chose bombast without considering the absurdities this scene creates.

I think this will be my final rant on the issue, but for those who think Rhaenys made a fine, rational decision, would you entertain the notion that if she's going to escape with her dragon, perhaps it might have made more sense to use the standard exit instead of collapsing a huge floor with thousands of people on it, including family that she apparently doesn't want to harm?

For those who state that Rhaenys held back on her family and the sept because she was "honourable" and the small folk are simply too irrelevant to factor into her decision making, she actively put both family and sept at risk with her escape. While she was unnaturally speedy to rush down the stairs and go all the way to the dragon pit, sneak past the guards, change clothes, and mount her dragon there still was enough time for people to move. Maybe some of her family or the sept decided to head out early for whatever reason. It wouldn't be out of place, everyone in this show is very dramatic and storming out during the king's ceremony is something people in this show would do. And there was no way to guess that the entire floor wouldn't collapse, or at least that portion where her family and the sept were standing. It certainly is something that could have reasonably occurred. Her actions were high risk in endangering these people. And I will repeat that senselessly murdering dozens or even hundreds of people with a dragon is tactically a bad idea. Smallfolk do revolt in Martin's world if deeply mistreated. When in a war to gain support for your cause, starting things by ruthlessly murdering is a politically nonsense maneuver. In the end, it's worth reiterating that none of this needed to happen. This was a deviation from the book and the book was way better.

All right. So this is what Rhaenys does. She has a choice of reuniting with the Kingsguard who is aiding her, or someone else. That has some risk to it. Not much, but it is there. Or she can sneak into the dragon pit, relying on the stupidity of her adversaries that no guard has been warned about her, and further relying on her dragon to be able to break free of a structure that was created to contain them. She succeeds and ends up killing dozens, maybe hundreds of people and injuring many more - men, women, and children - one of the blackest deeds in history since Maegar the Cruel, which will ensure that she is hated throughout the land. Then she faces her opponents, who are direct threats to her and her progeny, and she's reluctant to kill them because she wants to wait for Rhaenyra to give her the go-ahead? And she expects to then join forces with the Blacks in a fight to rule the realm, even though she has now become the most despised person in the realm? Once again, if this is satisfying to you, that's fine. But it doesn't work for me. Edit: I want to add that perhaps the luckiest part of Rhaenys' crazy plan is to not die from the several tons of concrete that she's bursting through.

By that sense, any Targaryen would also end a future civil war by killing their enemies. Rhaenys was satisfied with masscring a slew of bystanders and letting her enemies go. Anyway, if that works for you, I suppose there's nothing more to be said. We disagree, and that's fine.

Well, she was lucky that apparently no one warned the guards that she was restricted access to the dragons, because everyone is making poor decisions now. Anyway, I think this is just a badly thought out event that was designed purely for the shock value. It's tactically foolish, and it essentially reveals Viserys had a moral imperative to the crown because Rhaenys is an insane despot, and if there are no significant repercussions to this action (eg Rhaenys is immediately imprisoned by the Blacks when she tries to defect to them) then it will be an utter failure in the narrative.

Her dragon bursts through several layers of concrete in something specifically designed to contain it. She kills all of these people, but then spares Alicent and her family, ensuring a civil war. She could have searched for the Kingsguard leading her to an escape, or gone down to the harbor, or searched for an ally. In all the chaos, who is going to notice her? It can be argued that she may have been captured or killed (I'd say that's a very low risk), but her decision - if the narrative made any sense at all - should blacken her name across the realm, and anyone who allies with her. At any rate, one can argue whether it was worth the sacrifice of killing all of those people to escape. But I don't see how one can argue that after doing that deed, sparing Alicient et al makes any kind of sense. It was a ridiculous scene.

I think it significantly alters the tone of the narrative. She's an outright villain equivalent to Gregor Cleagane at this point, but with a victim's mentality. This was such a poor storytelling choice that the quality of this show has been downgraded for me from excellent with some problems, to pretty dumb but entertaining enough. It makes me wonder if David Benioff and Dan Weiss are the only ones capable of writing great fantasy tv.

I gave this episode a 5. There were quite a few problems, but what really bothered me was the end. Rhaenys casually massacres potentially dozens of people. And for what? To stare down her opponents? She apparently has mercy on them for whatever reason. But once again, this is immediately after she murders lots of people. All of those men, women and children in that crowd. There was absolutely no point in her actions. The writers have a frustrating habit of putting in shocking scenes to engage the audience, but these scenes tend to be completely nonsensical. It's really harming this show.

I haven't commented here yet, but I laugh each time I see this thread get resurrected. I actually really like Rothfuss' writings, but at this point I think I've overall gained more enjoyment from his obstreperously adversarial relationship with his fans than anything else.

I wonder if people here would take the devil's bargain of entering a reality where David Benioff and Dan Weiss agreed to adapt WoT, producing 4 seasons of some of the best fantasy ever with the potential to really fumble down the line (although maybe not, since the books are all finished), or if they would stick with Judkin and crew for reliable mediocrity?

I would legitimately start enjoying this show if they stopped pretending they were adapting Jordan's Wheel of Time and went completely wild in this fashion. Just as the criminal seems like they are getting away, Nynaeve cracks the case Colombo style and dramatically narrates how the villain's "tell" gave them away.

@butterweedstrover I don't think anyone is going to shift your perspective on this, but considering the amount of disagreement you are encountering here, perhaps indulge the idea that your objections to the show are not a failure of the show, but that your interpretation of events is particularly unique and not common among the audience. Nothing wrong with that, of course. It's unfortunate that it damages your enjoyment of the show, but not everything is for everyone. At any rate, I personally only have a few objections to the show, but otherwise I think the writers are doing a splendid job of writing what is no doubt a very challenging adaptation.

I don't view it as the destruction of 5 episodes of character development, I view it as the consummation of 5 episodes of character development. I find it completely believable and natural for younger Alicent to transition to older Alicent. All the set up required to make it work was performed. I don't think I had to do any rationalization to make it work for me. It's like the time skip in The Godfather. At one point Michael Corleone was a war hero who was starting to get his hands dirty for the family, and then next we see him he's fully into the game. Every step does not need to be spelled out because enough set up was observed to easily infer the rest of the character development. I feel the same way with Alicent. It is absolutely believable that she became what she did based on her early characterization. I think Alicent is more sympathetic in the show than the book. By quite a bit. I think Daemon is way less sympathetic in the show than the book. Rhaenyra is roughly the same. I strongly disagree here. Her decision to have bastards was profoundly stupid. She is extremely short-sighted and self-serving, as Alicent points out. Every character but Viserys sees this, and I as an audience member see this. Her whole plot to get rid of her loyal husband to marry her uncle was emotionally damaging to a lot of people and caused the death of an innocent person - and was done completely out of her blithe, selfish desire. I think Rhaenyra is fun to watch, but I don't find her remotely likeable. Nothing about this scheme is brilliant. It's two self-involved individuals behaving selfishly and with total disregard for anyone but themselves. Well, I find them all to be awful, so I wasn't aware there was a right answer. Anyway, we are clearly viewing this show differently. You say you're watching one side get whitewashed and another side painted villainously; the show I'm watching is a bunch of horrible people I'd never want to know in real life doing horrible things in an entertaining fashion.

I can't say I agree with your take. Rhaenyra and Daemon had an innocent person murdered just so they could marry. It wasn't the person the audience are familiar with, but that hardly matters. Rhaenyra has been more diplomatic in her later years because, due to her very foolish and short-sighted decision to have bastard children, she's always at risk of being called out for her infidelity, with potentially terrible consequences to follow. Daemon has throughout the show been one of the more villainous characters. He hasn't lately done something extremely horrible like murder a spouse, but I certainly don't think of him as a moral character. Alicent has, through bitter years of isolation and learned mistrust, gone from a sweet and innocent character to someone much darker. But I think this has been a very good and clear evolution. Her motivations are understandable (even if they aren't agreeable). Maybe Alicent's actions recently are making her 'less good' than Rhaenyra, but I don't think any side is remotely portrayed as good. I really like watching these characters, but I find them all morally despicable. Anyway, the season's not over yet. There's plenty of time for Daemon and Rhaenyra to do horrible things. And of course the start of season two will be very interesting with how Blood and Cheese is handled.