Gilbert Green

Maybe. But his primary skill is smith, not warrior.

She will fall in love with Tourney Mystery Knight #64

"Sweetrobin" Arryn is (I guess) the most under-rated of those not already mentioned. But that depends on future developments. But it seems to me something is going on with flappy-boy. And he's not so dumb either, for an 8-year old. Ser Bonifer Hasty - An interesting character, once a top tournament knight, with a mysterious past who dates from before the final years of Dunk and Egg. He gets dismissed for 2 reasons: (1) because Jaime has contempt for him; and (2) his religiosity offends many for culture-war reasons. Lancel suffers similarly, but Lancel is not half as cool. Sansa was mentioned above. She is underestimated, but overestimated too. I don't think she will ever be politically astute in the sense of being a cynical "player" of the "game of thrones". At least, I don't want her ever to become that, and I hope I'm right. I don't expect her to outscheme Littlefinger, at least not in the normal sense. For instance, she is currently scheming to surround Sweetrobin with 8 winged knights loyal to Sweetrobin. LF agreed too readily to this scheme, and no doubt intends to make sure all 8 winners are loyal to LF. He is two steps ahead of her, as far as scheming goes. But nonetheless, things will not go entirely his way. Doran was mentioned above. Yes, people underestimate him, because they assume he knows no more than what he says, when in fact (I guess) he gives information on a need-to-know basis. On a moral level, though, I think people overestimate him. They assume he has more scruples than he actually has. Melisandre - yes she is a villain, but she is also a more-accurate prophet, and more effective schemer, than some suppose. All the rhetoric about her fallibility is just misdirection by the author. Frog Martell.

I'll name one. Euron is going to attack Oldtown, and/or meet the Redwyne Fleet in battle. He isn't. Still, it would not be a terrible theory, if it were only presented a theory. And I certainly get a kick out of the idea that Euron will use blood magic to summon krakens and sink the Redwyne Fleet.

Well, everyone except Renly of course. He probably hired the catspaw too.

I tend to agree with you in opposing these ideas (except of course #8 which I support 100%). But I would not tend to call most of them theories. I would tend to call them something else, like maybe value judgments. Which will never be proven right or wrong, even if GRRM does somehow manage to finish the series.

I expect some theories I support to eventually be mentioned here. As for other people's theories, I generally have little desire to mock them. If someone thinks that Mance is Rhaegar, my guess would be that he is wrong, and that if the books are ever finished, we will eventually find out that it is wrong. But if it turns out to be right, congratulations, because I never would have guessed. There is a particular kind of theory that I do dislike, and these are the so-called "Grand" theories. These tend to be so nebulous that they will never be proven right or wrong. But I tend to stay out of such discussions, so they don't really do me any harm either.

She'll be put down. Arya, maybe, will be the one to do it. To take vengeance. Not limited to Freys. Justice irrelevant. She will keep going until the most depraved of the Frey haters are tired of the baby-murders. She has already hanged Pod. But most hold out hope that Pod was cut down alive. Which to my mind is by no means certain. I have a horrible feeling she'll hang all the orphans at the Inn. I don't think there is any Cat left in LSH. I do. But I'm in the minority, I think.

Men don't have to care about this sort of thing. But those that don't are probably going to end up being weeded out of the gene pool. Not my problem I guess.

Personally, I never use the term "genocide". I decided long ago that it was invented by elites so they could argue, "your mass murders were bad, but mine are okay or at least not-so-bad". But as for me, I don't need special terms to be against the murder of civilians during wartime. When I mean "murder", I say "murder". And in my book, Tyrion is indeed complicit of the mass murder of the smallfolk of the Vale.

Maybe not any more. But I am an old fan, and I remember. As to this forum, at least now, I have no basis for disagreeing.

I might be able to feeling a bit sorry for Tyrion if he, and his fans, did not spend so much time doing that for me. As it is, I just laugh at each well-deserved misfortune.

Jon may or may not be a secret Targ. But he is unlikely to have ever been the planned leader of Varys & Illyrio's planned Dothraki invasion. Because, for one thing, Jon knows nothing about it.

You are playing semantics. Dany was Illyrio's gift to Drogo. Yes, the eggs were a gift to Dany, if you want to insist on that. This is one of the trappings that shows that Dany is a dragon princess, and not some common Lysene slave girl. But don't let this fool you into thinking Dany is being treated with respect by Illyrio. She isn't. She's being traded like a piece of meat. And when Illyrio later says that he did not even expect her to survive, this is, at least, perfectly consistent with what we already knew, and makes perfect sense in light of what we already knew Do you think Illyrio's statement that he did not expect Dany to survive was a retcon? If not, what is the point of this quibbling? At most there is a mystery. In book 1, we are obviously not being told the whole story, and are being teased with the promise of further information at some point down the road. If we then get further information down the road, as promised, it is not evidence of a reton. Sure, it MIGHT be a retcon. GRRM might be making it up as he goes along. But until he writes himself into a corner he can't write himself out of, there is no problem. By giving us further information, he is only keeping his promise. It makes reasonable sense if Khal Drogo's Dothraki horde is worth 3 armies. Or more than 3 armies. I'm not sure what you mean by the phrase "decoy princess". Whether she is a "real princess" or not, it is obvious that putting her on the Iron Throne was not the original plan. Young girls are not preferred as claimants, and until Dany hatched some dragon eggs, nothing seemed particularly compelling about her claim.

That's beside the point. Illyrio is gifting a dragon princess to Khal Drogo as a bride. The dragon eggs, in effect are jewelry for the dragon princess. It's all part of the package. The point being that he's gifting to the Khal a princess, and not some random Lysene slave girl. And the realistic expectation is that Khal Drogo will end up owning the dragon eggs. He understands them to be a kingly gift. Whether he appreciates them as toys to play with is beside the point. So what? He seems to like his dragon princess. And there is no reason to suppose he doubts that she is a dragon princess. If he owns Dany, he also owns what she owns. In effect, jewelry cementing her value and status as a dragon princess. If so, I disagree with Preston on this one. Illyrio did not expect the eggs to hatch.

Viserys' role in the plot is to confirm the auntenticity of Dany. Dany's role is a gift from Illyrio to Drogo. Because of this gift, Khal Drogo owes Illyrio a favor. This signifies that Khal Drogo is willing to invade Westeros when Illyrio calls in his favor. But the Khal is not an obedient slave who will invade on command. One of his whims, evidently based on Dothraki custom, is that he will not invade while his wife is pregnant. The plan is not for Viserys to lead the invasion. Viserys is not in charge. It is to Illyrio, and not to Viserys, that Khal Drogo owes the favor. The only person crazy enough to think that Viserys is in charge is Viserys. And that mistake costs him his life. Illyrio did not expect the fossilized dragon eggs to hatch. Valuable? Yes. Powerful? No. They were part and parcel of the gift to Khal Drogo, for which Illyrio eventually expects an invading horde when he later calls in a favor for this gift. Of course not. Dany's role is that of a piece of meat thrown to a dog to earn the loyalty of the dog. Illyrio later tells Tyrion he expected Dany to die on the Dothraki Sea. Call that a retcon if you like, since it does not come till book 5, but it sounds perfectly plausible to me, given the overall circumstances. The only thing we know about the original plan is that it involved Illyrio, in cahoots with Varys, buying an allegiance with Khal Drogo for use in a future invasion of Westeros. We have no idea who was planned to lead this invasion. But it certainly was not going to be Dany. Her transformation from a meek abused tweenager to powerful dragon queen was a complete surprise. Viserys thinks Viserys will lead the invasion. But this mistake costs him his life. Nobody respects Viserys, and Illyro's own agent refers to him as "less than the shadow of a snake". It is to Illyrio, and not to Viserys, that Khal Drogo owes the favor.

When Young Griff is ready to invade, Illyrio will call in his favor with Khal Drogo. Under Dothraki culture, Khal Drogo owes Illyrio a favor, and invading countries is the only job and skill set that Khal Drogo has. I don't see the contradiction. Secret information is dispensed on a need to know basis. Dany's role in the plot is that of a piece of meat thrown to a dog to earn its loyalty; Drogo being the dog. She's been told all her life that she is a Targaryen Princess; and also been told all her life about her brother Rhaegar and his children. She knows Aegon is ahead of her in the line of succession.

Dany is a gift to Drogo, and ultimately, so are the dragon eggs. By giving them to Dany he also symbolically cements her status as Targaryen Princess. The eggs are valuable in themselves and delivered in a way that tends to confirm the value and authenticity of Dany. Ilyrio is buying the Dothraki horde, though not in quite the crude sense that Viserys understands. Why not give Young Griff the dragon eggs? Because he is buying an army, and Young Griff does not have an army. Khal Drogo does. Because he exchanged them directly for the army and the invasion.

There is only one mention of Dany, and only because she is pregnant, and only because her pregnancy inconveniences theirplans, and the only reason her pregnancy inconveniences her plans is because Drogo cares about this girl and her child more than they do.

- The only thing clear from Book 1 is that Varys & Illyrio intend to ally with Khal Drogo. Dany is only a gift to curry favor with Khal, and she had the bad taste to delay plans by getting pregnant. Viserys is a victim of Illyrio's manipulation. The idea that Viserys was intended for the Iron Throne is not inconceivable, and is what Illyrio led Viserys to believe. But Viserys was already declared in book 1 to be "less than a shadow of a snake" by Illyrio's spy. Hardly the fellow you want to spearhead an invasion. It's not impossible that Viserys on the Iron Throne is Illyrio's original plan, but it is hardly "clear as day". - Book 1 also makes clear that Viserys is a "beggar king" with zero support as a claimant. - First Aegon head-smash reference is from book 1. Book 2: - Varys' "power resides where people believe" riddle. - Baby Aegon as TPTWP. - Mummer's Dragon vision Book 3 - First Blackfyre reference

No dragons were mentioned either.

It would be nice to have been a fly on that wall. But I was not there, and neither were you. But what can certainly be ruled out is a gigantic mega-session where GRRM plugs their brains into his own brain with cables, and downloads into their heads every creative idea he ever had for the continuation of the series. And while I don't doubt that ultimate issues may have been touched on, I am also sure that D&D's primary concern, as always in TV, was a successful Season 4. Any other cans could be kicked down the road. I'm sure he told them something. It seems pointless to speculate as to what, since we were not there. At this point, it must have been clear to all concerned that the Show and the Books were headed in different directions. Whether D&D knew or did not know of this or that plot twist is not particularly relevant, if D&D had no intention of going in that direction in any event. This is hardly any more than he has give us, the readers. Don't know what "deliberately withhold" means. I'm sure both sides were aware that no actual "brain download" had occurred. I will happily assume that GRRM honestly answered any questions they had. But it does not follow that they were interested in his answers. I agree especially with the bolded part. I agree especially with the bolded part. But what this implies is, that by the time D&D had any need to know any spoilerish secrets of GRRM, there was no longer any point in telling them. D&D had already decided to do their own thing. Without knowing what he is talking about, GRRM's talk of changed plans is too vague to be meaningful. One thought that occurred to me is that this is away of telling the readers that the books will be different, without angrily accusing D&D of not following his creative vision. By which I do not mean to imply that anything he says is untrue. Obviously, GRRM has every right to change his mind about things he has not written yet.

GRRM specifically kept a stony silence. So did D&D. What I think you MEANT to say is that some actor said that David and Dan said that GRRM said that "Bran would be king". And he did not even allegedly say "king in the books"; nor "king of Westeros". If Bran does not end up as King of Westeros in the books, you will not be able to prove, from this game of telephone, that anyone lied to anyone else.

My guess is, Bran will never ascend. Bran merely steps into the shoes of a character that was cut from the HBO show.

If I were inclined to accuse GRRM of betraying anybody, it would start and end with whether GRRM had somehow disappointed us book fans by not finishing the series in a reasonable time. Which would bring us back to Neil Gaiman and his "entitlement" charge. But, in any event, his contractual obligations his HBO are not my concern. As a book fan, I may have no rights, but I'd still rather he work for me. But I am sure that HBO made sure that GRRM had an obligation to promote the show and not badmouth the show. While at the same time reserving for themselves complete creative control. I'm not sure you appreciate the position that puts GRRM in. How can he possibly respond to these (hypothetical) accusations? Also, if it were easy for GRRM to tell D&D "all his plans", it would also be easy for GRRM to write the books. So I'm guessing that's not so easy as you assume. That becomes especially true as the series and books start to diverge. It is, I am sure, hard enough for GRRM to keep track of everything he has written, without having to keep track of all D&D's changes as well. I think D&D were focused on having a successful season one season at a time. I think GRRM gave them all the help he reasonably could by (1) giving him the books to adapt; and (2) giving them due warning whenever a planned change from the books would result in a butterfly effect. For instance, I'm sure he warned them that Stoneheart, among other things, was important. Certainly, fandom will be disappointed one way or another. One possible reason for D&D to ignore many of GRRM's plans, even to the extent that GRRM may have revealed them, was that they were seen as unpopular. For example, the Stoneheart development was something not generally seen as not particularly popular with fans. Safe enough bet. Young Griff and Connington wasn't even in the TV show, as I recall. Neither was Frog. I think Frog and Young Griff are interrelated plot points. Both entirely dropped by the TV show. Nothing going on with Loras on Dragonstone, then? The show did not do much with Loras, as I recall. It is more-or less confirmed in the books that Young Griff will take Storms End. And we know he has "friends in the Reach", though I don't know if Mace is one of them. None of which has much to do with the TV show. I guess your idea is that if they were not in the TV show, they cannot possible serve an important role in the books. But I have severe doubts about this kind of logic. Not in the books, he won't. At least no more than he has done already. He's just passing through, on his way to Slaver's Bay. That he is launching some major attack on the Reach is a strange fan delusion devoid of any real textual support. But none of this is likely to have much to do with the show. GRRM has singled out Euron as a character who is hugely different in the show than in the books.