Former Lord of Winterfell

That - and even more so the sympathetic portray of the female lead - aggravated me so much I've never picked up another GGK book since.

Glad you said this because I thought the exact same thing. I really didn't like his portrayal of Jon earlier on, but I think he's gotten better, and he nailed that scene. The exact kind of passionate, not quite the right words, emotive outburst that seemed very real to me. It was clearly an incredible awkward moment for the character, completely torn between two loves/duties, and I bought it 100%.

Gave it a 7, which is kind of low for me. I didn't judge it on how faithful to the book it was -- just on how well it stood on its own merits. A lot of the individual scenes were really good -- Arya/Hound, Tywin/Joffrey, Theon/Bastard, Jon/Ygritte, Tyrion/Sansa, Sam/Bran, and Walder Frey in particular was wonderful again. But as an episode, it was cobbled-together bits and pieces of "wrap-up", and too obviously so. Did not like a few scenes. The Jaime/Cersei scene was like a cheesy romantic homecoming of a war hero, but this is supposed to be a twisted incestuous relationship at its core. There was no sense of wrongness at all, and they've been good on that in prior Jaime/Cersei scenes. The Shae scene didn't work for me because I still don't think they've set up why she would really love him. She clearly does, but it still makes no sense. But the biggest problem for me was the Danaery's scene. Yes, it was cheesy, but I just don't think Emilia Clarke is very good at all. She's the exact same in every scene -- slightly superior look, with an undertone of being very pleased with herself after pronouncing a few words of Valyrian. Wooden as hell, IMHO.

I think you are right about this. However, I think it is possible that a 15-16 year old Robb might have miscontrued how is father would have acted. Especially if he was sporting a boner. I mean, realistically, it is quite possible that "I had to marry her for the sake of honor" was as much a rationalization for marrying the woman he wanted as it was the actual truth. Admittedly, that's not something I think GRRM himself implied in the text, though. I think that may just be Roose mocking the whole thing, though not openly enough to cause an issue.

Just want to clarify that "shotgun wedding" doesn't mean a wedding that happened fast. It's a wedding that happened because the bride got pregnant (perhaps you can stretch it to had sex). The "shotgun" comes from the image of the father of the bride forcing a marriage at the point of a shotgun to prevent the embarassment/abandonment of his daughter. Robb and Talisa weren't a shotgun wedding, and neither were Robb and Jeyne, although that one was a lot closer to the actual definition.

Well, the problem is that if they really wanted to make it a truly fleshed-out romance, with a truly-fleshed out Talisa, that would have taken a lot more screen-time than they were understandably willing to commit to what was essentially a plot device. They needed to come up with something that wouldn't take a ton of screentime, but that might be convincing. So, they decided to give her the kind of noble, "good-guy" story that would also reflect well on Robb for loving her for that reason. I actually thought that worked as well as anything else they could have done given the time constraints.

And my point is her pretty face wasn't the reason he fell for her. He fell for her, very clearly, right when she told him about her past. Part of the problem here is that Robb is so much older than in the books. It's easier to imagine a 15-16 guy falling hard for a girl based on what we were given than it is a guy who appears to be more than 10 years older. And that really applies both to book Robb and show Robb. No matter how they did it, it wasn't going to make much sense. Although personally, if they were going to adapt it, a smarter change may have been him not just having sex with Jeyne, but her actually becoming pregnant as being the reason Robb felt compelled to marry her. Not just because of her honor, but because he's seen what it means to be born a bastard.

It's not because she's just "not horrible". How many other noble-born characters do we see who deliberately give up their wealth and privilege to serve the less fortunate, without any expectation of fame or glory, and without being on the run from some worse fate? Like her or not (and I personally found her annoying and not all that attractive), her story is very unusual, and as I said, hits Robb right in his idealistic sweet-spot.

No, you don't have to love her -- only Robb had to. In their first meeting, she spouted off against slavery, and about leaving a life of luxury to do good. She was an idealist in the same way that Robb was, and it was very clear to me that was the core of her appeal to him. To him, she seemed to have a "Stark-like" code, which got him right in his weak spot.

If you perceived Michelle as having "absolutely dominated" that scene, then isn't it quite likely that's exactly what the writers and director intended? Unless you're going to argue that they didn't know what they'd filmed. If the writers had made their "best attempts to focus solely on the poor doomed couple", as you claim, then Michelle couldn't have dominated that last scene because she wouldn't have had the lines. In fact, from the moment the first bolt was fired, the writers gave Talisa no lines at all. Had they truly wanted Michelle to be in the background, they'd have had her shot first, given her no lines, and then had the rest of the scene taken up by Talisa and Robb saying their last words to each other. But that's not how it was written. The point of stabbing Talisa in the womb wasn't just the shock of the physical attack -- it was to kill Robb's heir. The message was "we are wiping out your family". And while it is true that the focus was on Robb and Talisa at that particular moment in the scene, the entire rest of the scene was written around Catelyn, and they deliberately made her the enduring, last image of the entire episode. The idea that Fairley somehow shone in spite of how the scene was written ignores the reality that she was given all the lines, and the most screen-time. I'd say it was certainly Cat's POV when she was standing at the window in Riverrun talking to her uncle about waiting for Hoster Tully to come home, and then breaking down because Bran and Rickon were gone. And then again when she was knitting and talking about Jon. Talisa was a plot device, an appendage to Robb's character. She didn't have a single scene, in any episode, that didn't involve Robb, except the one with Catelyn knitting. Catelyn, on the other hand, had tons of scenes with all sorts of different characters.

His last word in the show was "mother", and he died standing and looking at her. His last words in the book was about his wolf, so I really don't get the claim that show Robb didn't care enough about his mother.

They may well have filmed unCat's resurrection before filming the RW, so I don't put much stock in Michelle leaving right after the shooting of that scene. As for Maisie, UnCat has comparatively few scenes, which likely can be filled on a quick "guest" basis. So, most of the other castmembers likely won't see her, especially since Maisie probably isn't even going to be filming in the same country. As for when UnCat would be revealed, she actually get resurrected only a couple of days after the RW, so it would make sense to show her right away. My guess is that her body is found by the Blackfish, who runs into the BwB while trying to bring it back to Riverrun.

One can, one should, and one did. Catelyn rocked.

But for Robb's lack of honor, the Red Wedding likely would not have happened. And as I said, honor isn't plot armor, so that's why bad things can still happen. But to the extent the Stark children still have hope -- and I think they do -- it is because of the residual loyalty created by Ned. I don't think it's right to look at "the Lannisters", because "the Lannisters" who inherit Casterly Rock may not be the ones who did bad deeds. What we do know is that perhaps the most horrific act we can attribute directly to any Lannister -- what happened to Tysha -- rebounded to terrible effect. What happens to Cersei and Jaime we don't know, but I doubt that their misdeeds will end up improving their position. No, the "moral" (if there is one) is that neither mercy nor honor guarantees either a good or poor result. Both results may happen, though I suspect that in general, it is a positive quality. I don't think that's even idealism, but simple reality.

Assuming that you've finished ADWD, don't "The North Remembers" and "Ned's Girls" suggest that all is not lost? What's Davos doing nowadays, anyway? ;)

A very long time ago -- like, probably 1999, I posted that the "moral" would be that honor does matter. That Ned being the kind of man he was is what was ultimately going to save his children, because it would be reflected in the loyalty of his lords and people. Can't find the post on the old board -- which still exists somewhere out there -- but I think that's still true.

Ned's girls. The North Remembers. It matters. It just takes time. Osha looks after Rickon because the Starks were decent to her. The Reeds took care of Bran and Rickon because Ned was a decent man to their father. What happened to Tywin, for doing what he did to Tysha? What happened to sociopath Joffrey? What happened to those Freys who have been caught by the BwB? Being honorable is not plot armor. That does not mean it does not matter, nor does it mean that being dishonorable is, long-term, the better bet. Consider the words you bolded. I suspect that GRRM is not done with the Boltons. After 5 books in a 7 book series? Try again when he's done.

Hey, I think the producers did a very good job as well. I loved it. Guess I was just making that point before those who weren't so enamored made it.

Well, some might say that it was the author that nailed it, and that the producers just didn't fuck it up too badly.

According to the books, Edmure and the Tullys were very hard-pressed to resist the Lannisters before Robb arrived. And that's while the Lannisters stood alone, and had to husband their strength against Stannis and Renly. So now, after the Lannisters have been massively reinforced by the even more powerful Tyrells, and after they've eliminated the only other threats they faced -- the Baratheon Boys -- Robb is going to leave Edmure alone once again, to start a risky campaign against the ironment back in the North. As I read the books, newly married Edmure would have been utterly fucked even if Robb's plan would have succeeded, and it made absolutely zero sense to me why nobody really picked up on that. The Tullys and Freys would have been steamrolled as soon as Robb made it north of the neck. Not to mention that despite the extreme trepidation with which Catelyn and Robb entered the Twins, Robb apparently decided it was okay to let the bulk of his force get completely drunk, and not have them stand to arms. This is the brilliant Young Wolf? One can overlook such things, recognizing that writers aren't perfect, and enjoy the rest of the story. Or, you can let such inconsistencies lead you to conclude that it's really nothing more than fluff.

Actually, a rating and an analysis are not the same thing. You can rate something as to how enjoyable it is without analying it for flaws. But I don't want to sound as if it is wrong to analyze the show critically, because it's not. I'll just say that I feel sort of badly for folks who spend so much more effort discussing the things they didn't like rather than the things they did, because it seems to me as if they might not be enjoying it very much.

Just from my perspective, I didn't really see much of a shift. I still saw the scene almost exclusively through Catelyn's eyes, and I saw it as being about family -- about Catelyn and her children. Her acceptance of Talisa was sort of more hope for her as a mother. It means another daughter, grandchldren, etc.. It was really the first positive family glimmer she'd have in a very long time, and then it was all brutally stripped away from her. The book RW did have more on the bannermen, but I still saw the scene itself as ultimately being about Catelyn's losses -- and ultimately, what the Stark family had suffered personally -- throughout the series. The aftermath of it is when the politics sunk in more. At least for me, I'm fine with them keeping the focus primarily on the family for emotional impact, and having the political repercussions being the longer-lasting issue.

All the bitching in the world isn't going to change the content of an episode already shown, nor the content of what is going to be filmed moving forward. I suppose if some people get enjoyment out of focusing on the negatives, that's their prerogative. Doesn't make much sense to me since the entire purpose of watching something in the first place is because you want it to be enjoyable. That's not to say criticism doesn't have its place, and you'd expect the folks who run the website to approach it from that perspective because they aren't just fans. But for the rest of us...I personally watch it as a fan seeking enjoyment rather than a critic looking for flaws.

I don't think you'd stab just once. The goal is to kill her and make sure the fetus is dead, so multiple stabs make sense. As for creating the pregnancy just for that, well, how is that any more "gratuitous" than Catelyn ripping her face, or sewing's Robb's head on Grey Wind? It is intended to shock and horrify. Personally, I'm greatly appreciative that the showrunners managed to recreate some of the shock/horror I felt upon my first reading of that chapter by adding a character and scene that fit, yet that wasn't in the original text.

10. Thought it was brilliant. For me, Ms. Fairley did a fantastic job conveying that vague sense of mounting unease/foreboding throughout the wedding, just with her facial expressions. Nailed it for me. Also thought having the first strike be to Talisa's womb was a great way to shock readers, because we really didn't know what was going to happen to her. It was such a brutal act that I kind of gasped. Sure, there were things that weren't exactly the same as the books, but that's what happens when you've got internal monologues. I was really surprised it had the impact it did despite knowing what was coming.