Tadco26

More poor writing to make things happen because the writers want them to, rather than because it makes sense in the context of the show. Dany was considering attacking despite the risk to civilians being used as human shields, not with the goal of killing civilians. But now she just burns everything including her own soldiers AFTER the victory was in hand because show says so. The show hit us over the head with the threat of Dany going mad with Varys and Tyrion's scheming, but none of her actual actions up to this point were any where close to lets randomly burn everything for no reason. Dany going mad could be an interesting and earned character arc, but the execution here was terrible. They could have even made it where she ignored her advisers and attacked the red keep and killed civilians as collateral damage to get what she wanted and that would have been enough. But they wanted to make her go full dark lord and just kill innocents to make it really bluntly obvious that she is the bad guy now. They could have had her burn the already surrendered Lannister soldiers and it would have been bad, but not strafe down civilians for no reason bad. Just think how easy she could have taken King's Landing when she first arrived in Westeros with 3 dragons and no ballista defense system if her dragon's breath can literally knock down the walls of the city. She removed the city's defenses in minutes with just Drogon with minimal civilian losses. Of course last week the ballista's get 3 long range hits on Rhaegal without Dany even seeing the ships first, and this week Dany used the invincibility cheat and takes out the entire fleet and city without a scratch. Why not have Rhaegal die during this type of attack instead of from a "surprise attack" from a fleet hiding behind a mountain. Have Missandei get killed by Cersei AFTER the bells have started ringing and have that set Dany off to attack the red keep and go after Cersei, killing innocents in the process. There are many ways a similar story line could be written in a more believable fashion. Jaime came back to die with Cersei, of course going invincible mode to make it to her after being run thru twice by Euron, who has always been a caricature. Like Littlefinger, Varys and Tyrion haven't done anything remotely clever since they ran out of book material. Arya doesn't even bother to use a disguise on her quest to kill Cersei, The Hound dies fighting Gregor in a meaningless fight. Jon can't control the men under his command, and has to kill one of his own to stop him from raping. Arya is set up as the obvious one to go after Dany now. I don't really care about any of these caricature versions of the characters any more.

Great visuals, generally good acting, and directing with a super shallow plot line and lots of exceptionally forced scenes. Virtually every crime Littlefinger was "convicted of" happened long ago. What took so long? What was his end game? He never even tried to marry Sansa or consolidate power for anything useful. He had more power and control before he betrayed the Lannisters for no reason to ally with the Boltons and then betrayed them. Super dramatized trial for what purpose other than the drama itself? If the sisters were in on the shared secret, who were they play-acting those hostile scenes for? And why go to all the trouble just to off Littlefinger — a character who hasn’t done much more than glower and skulk for ages now, and could have easily been dispatched at any time? The meeting in King's Landing ultimately had the expected result of virtually nothing. Lost a dragon and some supporting cast, gained Jaime. Yay? Tyrion went to meet with Cersei alone and is provoking her to kill him for some unknown reason, and we are to believe now she has the self control to stay her hand even unprovoked. Then she promises to send all her armies north when that wasn't even requested. Then tells Jaime she isn't doing that, she is reconquering the 2 spots that will likely be completely abandoned and if he doesn't follow her orders she will kill him. Then she nods to Ser Gregor as if to say kill Jaime and nothing happens... Why didn't Cersei just agree to the original terms? It's going to be much more obvious that she lied if none of her troops are coming north, than if she just agreed to stay home and out of the war as she was asked. Why it’s only now that Jaime finally decides that it’s time to break with Cersei? Her mass murder at the Sept of Baelor, which also led to the death of their last child, wasn’t enough, but making him break a promise to people who were recently their sworn enemies is? Euron fake leaves back to the Iron Islands I guess coming up with his ploy on the spot, as obviously an undead being in the box wasn't something they could have pre-planned around as an excuse to run. Dany and Jon love each other because plot says so. I guess they can just be horny for each other, but despite their efforts to make it overly obvious that they are attracted to one another, the actual foundation for love seems really shallow. Still it's been obvious that they were trying to force the narrative that they were falling for one another all season, so not really a surprise. Sam traveled by horse from southern tip of Westeros and Old Town to Winterfell in less time than it took the white walkers to walk a distance Gendry ran in less than a day. At the current rate of travel the White Walkers will reach Winterfell in 6 more seasons. All it takes is seeing Jon’s act of “heroism” (an act that everyone seems to agree was pretty dumb), and Theon is magically able to take up the mantle of hero in his own subplot: After getting beat to a bloody pulp, Theon went pro wrestler with the sudden full recovery and re energized attack after being kneed in the non-crotch several times, then falling to his knees for a redemptive splash in the water, the sun beating down on him and triumphant music swelling. A more impressive fight outcome than I can recall even pre-Reek Theon having. Now we are to believe that the 15-20 men there could even have a chance of rescuing Yara if they all agreed to do that from the start. Undead dragon did perfectly controlled demolition of the wall with impressive visuals, but questions remain about what they would have done if they never got the dragon? As visually impressive as it was, wasn't that the expected outcome as soon as the dragon got turned? I know lots of people love the show despite these things, and that is great for them. Nobody says we all have to like the same things and other people disliking what you like ultimately shouldn't detract from your enjoyment of the show, likewise people loving the show isn't going to effect my opinion on it. If people want to debate specific points then that is fine, but just saying the show is bad or great on it's own isn't a very compelling debate.

That was terrible.

I didn't think Dorne could be worse than it already was, but I was wrong. The dialogue would have been bad by itself. Add the strip tease and it was laugh out loud terrible.

I'm not talking about the necessity to include Tysha. I'm talking about the completly unnecessary and unrealistic act of a whore offering Tyrion free sex. If Tyrion was that much of a lady's man he wouldn't need Shae or any other whore. The complaints certainly aren't baseless. You can love the show despite them if you want, but the show is ruining it's own image. If Dorne is important then make a coherrent story line of their own or follow the one that is already layed out for them in the books. I can only laugh at the need to have a terrible Dorne story line so they can have the "necessary and tasteful Sansa rape". Sansa's rape wasn't necessary because her entire marriage wasn't necessary. Boltons lose wardens of the north title and make enemies of the Iron Throne so they can have a figure head Stark wife when there is no one around for this to impress. Littlefinger sacrifices the heir to Winterfell to justify going to war and claiming Warden of the North for himself, even though Cersei didn't ask for any proof and it makes no sense that the Vale would go to war for Littlefinger in the first place. He couldn't give Cersei any proof of Sansa being there if she asked. If she decided to confirm it with her own spies then they would easily discover that Littlefinger is the one who escorted Sansa to Winterfell and arranged the wedding. So the wedding makes little sense for either side. Even less for Sansa to agree to it. For revenge? I thought she was learning the game and not so naive? How does getting married to a Bolton give her any revenge? They needed to consolidate as many characters as they can in as few locations as they can and this is the best way they could come up with to do it. Unfortunately it's just not very good writing.

The other problem that hasn't really been discussed regarding Tyrion being offered free sex by a whore is if he can do that, why does he need whores in the first place? If women want him even when he has no money, shouldn't he be charming normal women of westeros? At least as many as any other noble? It works against the fact that in the books he isn't an attractive man even before losing his nose. He might be charismatic and witty, but he feels like the only way a woman is going to want him is if he pays for her. That's part of why learning the truth about Tysha was so devestating. Ramsay raping Sansa is "realisitic" to the situation they put her in, but it's just funny that a whore who just met Tyrion offering him free sex doesn't matter whether it's realistic or not.

What is their plan once they snatch her? Hurting or killing her seems like what they were implying they were going to do to Myrcella, but they don't need to abduct her first to do that. Yet they didn't even try to attack her when they were fighting Jaime and Bronn. Besides if two foreigners can walk in armed and assault the prince without any guards stopping them, then the sand snakes getting in seems like a piece of cake.

I always thought Dany's love story with Drogo was one of the most unbelievable parts of the books for a major POV character. Whether you call it rape or not, she was contemplating suicide at one point because of the rough to brutal sex that left her muffling her cries in her pillow. Then she learned how to please Drogo in another way and grew to love him. I like the books in spite of that story line, not because of it. There were plenty of complaints about the rape in season 1 too. I think people liked the show in spite of the rape, not because of it in that situation too. Rape is terrible but it doesn't offend me to see it on the show if it is critical to a plot line. I understand why it would for other people. It's just an illogical plot line for Sansa to even be there, and creating a rape scene for her is upsetting viewers who are offended with minimal gain. Even if you aren't offended, was it entertaining to you? If you loved the episode, would you be rating it down if Sansa had been rescued before the bedding? Or if Ramsay had been called to deal with an attack by Stannis first? Rape is a logical course of action for Ramsay in that situation, but it's not the only option they had.

The writing just isn't very good this season. Never mind being faithful to the books or not, the show lacks internal consistency and logic. It makes little sense just in the context of the show that the Bolton's would betray the Lannisters by marrying a known fugitive wanted for Joffrey's murder. A decision that should cost them their position as Warden's of the North and logically resulting in reversing the royal decree legitimizing Ramsay, just to have a figure head Stark wife to pacify Northern Lords who don't even exist on the show. No northern lords attended the wedding. None have been discussed as problems when Roose is discussing fighting Stannis with Ramsay. Stannis doesn't seem particularly concerned with any of them. Sure he tried to get Jon Snow to take Winterfell, but he didn't bother sending Davos or any other envoys to any of these other lords nor make any mention of them being a concern when marching to war against the Boltons. And with no witnesses how would any of the northern lords even be able to validate this marriage? Why would the Iron Throne send no help north? Stannis is a threat to Tyrells, Freys and Lannisters alike and there are no other threats discussed on the show for them to worry about. No resistance in the Riverlands on the show. No Greyjoy attacks on the Tyrell lands. With no other distractions than their petty court squables, it makes very little sense that they wouldn't send a combined attack to wipe Stannis out. What are their armies doing right now? Then on the flip side what does giving Sansa to the Boltons gain Littlefinger? An excuse to go invade and become warden of the north because of the issues listed above? The thing is Cersei didn't ask for any proof of what Littlefinger said. There could have been no Sansa at all and the story would have played out the same way. And if she had asked for proof, what could he give her? What if she sent her own spies to confirm the story? Then it would take very minimal work to discover that Sansa arrived with Littlefinger to Winterfell, also destroying his plan. And we have to presume that the armies of the Vale are willing to go die for Littlefinger so he can become Warden of the North even though that makes little sense. Frankly I'm surprised Cersei didn't send the combined Lannister and Tyrell armies north right away under the belief that they are likely harboring Tyrion too. The rape scene itself didn't offend me, but I do have concerns that D&D have a history of making changes and jumping back to the book story lines as if their changes never happened. Which in this case would mean Sansa gets over the rape by the end of the season as if it never happened and the rape is more about Theon's redemption than Sansa. You can also argue that no matter what Sansa does for "revenge" at this point, having her family murdered and being raped by the murderer's son makes for a rather hollow victory. It certainly wasn't unavoidable. Besides avoiding the at best questionable Sansa in Winterfell story line in the first place, they could have: 1) Had Sansa rescued before the bedding. 2) Had Stannis attack before the bedding. 3) Had Sansa seduce Ramsay rather than get raped by him (Sansa taking it as rape is more believable, but it would remove the rape controversy.) 4) Written a completely original story line that doesn't involve Ramsay marrying anyone, which they have chosen to do for lots of other characters. And yes Jeyne goes thru the same and much worse in the books, but that is a very tiny subplot of two huge books, that happens to a character that readers have no attachment to. They decided Sansa's rape should be the climax of a show that is covering those two books in only 10 episodes with a character that many viewers care a lot about. As much stuff as they have cut or completely rewritten other story arcs, it's pretty hard to say they "had to" include the rape scene. Both Jeyne and Sansa getting raped is terrible, but it's like reading about a rape of a stranger in the news paper vs finding out one of your friends or family got raped as far as character attachment. Jeyne is also destroyed as a person after it, where I suspect Sansa will go on as if it never happened by two episodes from now. Then we look at Dorne, where apparently they have the worst security in Westeros. Armed foreigners are able to just walk up to the prince and punch him and no guards are any where to be found until another group of assailants comes and fights loudly for several minutes. And what was the point? What exactly is the Sand Snakes plan? I thought they wanted to kill Myrcella, but they had a number of opportunities during the fight and didn't try once. Are they only allowed to kill people once they have buried them in the sand up to their necks? And Jaime has no plan even if they had successfully taken Myrcella out of the Water Gardens? I still don't understand why Jaime kidnapping Myrcella from Dorne would be less of a political disaster than having an army come with them to liberate Myrcella. Doran might not kill little girls, but it's hard to believe he wouldn't kill Jaime Lannister when he is fighting in the presence of the prince who Bronn assaulted. Then we have the trial where the word of a male prostitute is taken over the word of the queen and the heir of high garden. He saw his birth mark! Congratulations squire, I imagine most squires have seen the birth marks on their knights in the process of serving them. Between seeing them dress and undress for battle, preparing their baths, doing their laundry, and tending their wounds, that's hardly compelling testimony. Good thing they aged up Tommen so he can watch slack jawed and do nothing as his wife and the first woman he has ever slept with gets imprisoned. Of course it wasn't Cersei who armed the faith, it was Tommen... but for all Margaery's scheming she hasn't convinced Tommen to just sign a new order disarming them?

Exactly. If this was a faithful adaptation and every one was rating it a 1 then sure, blame it on the source material. When writing their own fan fiction they don't get that excuse. Especially when it is their original material which is by far the worst part of the show.

When discussing "realism", I think people want the world to have consistent rules, whatever those rules are. If you say dragons exist in the world that's fine, but unless you explain why some people take months to travel the same path that others can travel in one scene then it breaks emersion. If you explain it by saying they can teleport then that's fine too. You probably then need to explain why everyone doesn't teleport though. Likewise if characters behave in ways that make no sense, that's a problem whether it's a fantasy world, science fiction, or historical film. The reason the show is popular in the first place is because it is based on books where the characters behave in "believeable" ways relative to the situations they are placed in. The show has increasingly been putting characters in situations that make no sense and having characters behave in ways that aren't particularly believeable. I think that is the focus of most complaints about "realism" in a fantasy show.

People want consistency. Sure speeding up travel can completely make sense at times and be waved off as time passed off screen. What doesn't make sense is Brienne taking half a season to get from King's Landing to the Crossroads Inn, when Littlefinger can make it from winterfell to King's Landing in one episode for example. People traveling the exact same routes and taking drastically different amounts of time to get where they are going, yet very small amounts of time passing for all the other characters. Even if we say that Littlefinger made the trip and the appropriate time passed off screen, that would mean that Loras has been in captivity for a month or longer prior to the "trial". Hence describing Littlefinger as "teleporting". If they waited 2 episodes before Littlefinger arrived then it would be a completely plausible explanation to say he traveled during that time. If that was the worst complaint about the show then you are right that it would be relatively minor in the grand scheme of things.

The show has had good episodes in the past. Good seasons even. So some people watch hoping that they might see some of that return. If the entire show had been the level of this season then I would have stopped in season one. Even now there are still good individual scenes. They are just becoming rarer this season. I'd rather be "spoiled" by seeing things first hand than read about it some where and there is entertainment value in pointing out how ridiculous some of their changes are. On the plus side they have deviated so much that it would be difficult to know if anything from this season is a spoiler. Honestly people who love the show should be happy that people who don't like the direction they are going are still watching. Viewership numbers don't care why some one watched.

The writing just isn't very good this season. Might as well cut Dorne completely if this is the best story line they can come up with for it. Regarding the rape scene, rape is a sensitive subject for lots of people. Sure Jeyne's fate was even worse, but it was one tiny part of two huge books and she is destroyed after it happens. They really worked hard to make a ridiculous scenario where Sansa can be raped when they cut or changed over 50% of two huge books. And I suspect that in a few episodes Sansa will act like it never happened just like Cersei did with Jaime. It's a realistic outcome for Ramsay and Sansa in that scenario, it's just not one you can say is necessary. The book plot revolves highly on the northern lords who don't even exist in the show. The rape and torture of fake Arya is heard regularly by the lords of the north who are visiting and helps lower morale and loosen support for the Boltons. Without the lords even being mentioned on the show, there really isn't even anything to gain from marrying Ramsay to Sansa in the first place. Become enemies of the crown is a pretty poor trade off for having a figure head Stark bride. And even after going with the ill conceived Sansa in Winterfell plot, they had the option of having Sansa rescued before the bedding. Even if Sansa personally kills Ramsay the damage of having her family killed and then being raped by the son of the murderer makes it a pretty hollow "victory" at that point. It didn't offend me, but in the end this is a show meant to be entertaining, and lots of people don't find that subject matter entertaining at all. My fiancée was already bored most of the season. Sansa was one of the last Starks alive and she basically said "Why am I watching this any more? Everyone who is left is either evil or a victim. Who is the hero at this point? I'm not really getting any entertainment from seeing the characters I care about get murdered, tortured or raped". Couldn't really give her a good answer.

Possibly the worst episode of the entire series.

Nobody can know if it is good or bad until they watch it, so the number of viewers for a specific episode mean little to how good or bad it was. it does signal what people in general think about the series as a whole. If enough people think it's bad the ratings will start to go down and if most people love it then they will maintain or go up. Of course everyone who gave it a bad rating here, still watched it, so once again watching doesn't prove how good or bad it is. To me it's a successful tv show and a mediocre adaptation.

As a stand alone episode completely ignoring the books it was probably a 7. As an adaptation it was probably a 3 or 4. Give it a 5 over all to split the difference.

I'm kind of surprised that they haven't had Mance reappear on the show prior to the attack to remind non-readers who he is. It would have also given a chance to introduce Dalla and Val, but I suspect they cut both of them from the show. Jon's negotiation/assasination attempt was far-fetched in the books, but it appears he is going with no weapon? And he has a significantly worse relationship with every wildling outside of Ygritte in the show. Tormund still likes Jon and defends his right to speak to Mance when he is sent in the book. Tormund is captured on the show, and has no respect or friendship with Jon to speak of, and of course won't be there to speak up for him when he goes to try and meet Mance. The changes also make their future book interactions of brokering the wildling/night's watch peace much harder to make convincing. Of course the show has a history of changing things, and then going back to the book storyline as if the changes never happened, so who knows what they will do.

I agree. If they had unlimited screen time then these scenes would have been fine, but when time is such an important resource, wasting it on scenes like this when so much other stuff has to be cut is a shame. Still a good episode, but those are choices that keep it from being "the best adaptation that could possibly be made for film" as some like to claim it is.

How did Dany and her "kalasar" of ~ a dozen people take over the house of the King of Qarth? He has no guards? Sam is just overlooked by the white walkers and their army of zombies? They let Jon go because Qhorin attacked him? Jon hasn't even said he wants to join them yet and now he is free, at the Lord of Bones suggestion? Is Pyat the only warlock in the order? I'm curious why they even bothered with Ser Dontas in episode one and haven't had a scene with him since, while Littlefinger has already offered to take Sansa home. Did Varys recruiting Ros really warrant that much screen time? I don't think the scene was bad if you have unlimited screen time, but I also don't see what it added considering how one of the main defenses of changes to the book is they don't have enough time to fit it all in.

As someone who has been disappointed by this season as a whole, I thought this episode was great and the only 10 I have given for this season. Any minor nitpicks or scenes I was hoping to see that didn't make it were minor enough not to detract at all. Granted I would love for them to have a Lord of the Rings movie budget to do the battles, but given the budget constraints I thought it was awesome. A virtually perfect example of how to do an adaptation and still stick very close to how the book story plays out. The extremely minor things I missed: 1) no chain, which in the context of the show at this point made sense. No way they could have built the chain in that length of time since they hadn't mentioned it in previous episodes and I imagine it would be very hard to make it visible in a night scene anyway. Plus it would have made Davos look like an idiot to lead them into the chained off bay when he was the one pointing out the flaws in not sending ahead scouts in the books and noting the new towers which held the chain. 2) Sansa and the Hound's scene didn't quite make it clear why she refused to leave with him since she said he wouldn't hurt her, when if I remember correctly she was quite afraid of him at that point in the book. Didn't force her to sing to him. I know some non-readers seem to be confused on if she went with him or not and have made comments that she is an idiot if she did not, which it's hard to argue with in the context of the show. 3) It threw me off slightly for the Hound to directly refuse Joffrey's order. Refusing Tyrion was one thing, refusing Joffrey in the manner he did seems it would have gotten him killed or at least some reaction from the other soldiers and king's guard rather than just let him walk off. Like I said exteremely minor things that were more expectations than complaints. Outside the context of this particular episode I wonder about what they are doing with Ser Dontas and if any non-readers will even remember who he is by the time he shows up again.

This was an odd addition for the writers to make. As far as I can recall this is the first mention of time involved with travel, so even though we can joke about Littlefinger teleporting from Renly's camp to Harrenhal, we don't know for sure how much time has supposedly passed. But barring them saying Stannis has some how been delayed, we know that the events from that point in the episode to the attack in episode 9 = 5 days, which not only rules out the chain being started and completed, but also gives us a time measuring stick for every event in every other story line. Which means that Tywin has to march his army from Harrenhal to King's Landing within 5 days if he is going to participate in day 1 of the battle of blackwater. It will also give us a time frame on any other travel, raven delivery speeds, and events for next episode and up until the attack in episode 9. I don't really understand how anyone can say the chain was an unrealistic idea, chains have been attempted in real life for similar effect, such as the Hudson River Chain, the harbor of Constantinople,

Vargo Hoat has not been cast this season as far as I can tell. I suspect we won't even see the bloody mummers this season. It may be that Arya uses her 3rd kill to escape rather than killing the guard herself.

BoldAsYouPlease, on 08 May 2012 - 10:02 PM, said: If by "perfect" you mean "exact word-for-word fidelity", you're right. But that's a strawman - I've yet to see any critic of the show demand that the book be followed to the letter, only that the changes make sense and prove worthwhile. How in the world is my quote demanding a 100% translation of the books? I quite clearly state that season 1 was overall a very good adaptation and it wasn't close to a 100% translation. There have been numerous scenes from this season that I thought were great adaptations even in this episode such as the riot and Theon's scenes. Just because all of the people quoted had problems with some of the scenes in no way implies that they expected every scene to be word for word with the books. I do think that this season has been less faithful to the books than last season, and I don't really see how anyone can argue otherwise. Whether you like those changes or not is a different arguement based primarily on opinion.