Melifeather

The only thing Ned Dayne confirmed is that he and Jon shared the same wet nurse which implies that Wylla was at Starfall to nurse Ned Dayne, but how she came to nurse Jon Snow is a mystery, because his age places his birth before Ned Stark returned Arthur’s sword, leaving the logistics of it all a mystery.

I can see how you might draw some parallels between Big Rob the simpleton and Jon Snow, but Jon is described as being small and slight (like Ned) whereas Robb Stark was the big one. Jon was stabbed multiple times, but his abdomen wasn't gored or ripped open. I also disagree with the theory that Jon is the son of Lyanna. I understand it is a very popular assumption. It's just not one that I buy into. Whenever Ned thinks of Jon, it's his "honor" that he's ashamed of. He has stated that he dishonored himself. Now why would that be? Is it possible that he impregnated Ashara and then didn't marry her because he needed to bring the Tullys to Robert's cause? I think there is compelling evidence that Ashara came to Winterfell, crossed the Bite with Ned when he went home to call his banners, and then gave birth to Jon at Winterfell. The story of the Bastard O'Winterfell being "born in the crypts" applies to Ashara as well, because people believe that she is dead. It is my assertion that she assumed the identity of Wylla just as Sansa is now Alayne, and is yet alive living in her family home at Starfall. I posit that a few weeks after Ned married Catelyn he rode back to Winterfell to send Ashara back home on a ship from White Harbor, and convinced her to leave Jon with him much like LC Jon Snow convinced Gilly to leave her son at the Wall. Gilly set sail with Mance's son along with Sam and Maester Aemon - sort of a reversal of the Fisherman's Daughter story. The whispers that Catelyn heard at Winterfell were enough for her to come right out and ask Ned about Ashara. She touched a nerve. Why was Ned so angry? Wouldn't it be convenient for people to believe Ashara was Jon's mother if Ned wished to keep the true mother's identity concealed? The servants of Winterfell must have been saying that Ashara was Jon's mother because its implied that this is the question that Catelyn asked the truth of. Ned specifically addresses this question and he's very, very angry about it. Angry enough to frighten Catelyn. I'd say his reaction is more evidence that Ashara is Jon's mother. As for Lyanna, I believe her life was paralleled by Arya, traveling through the Riverlands, becoming "no one", dying from a sword inflicted wound to the belly, and most definitely childless. Arya, of course, is not dead, but for all intents and purposes she isn't Arya any longer either.

I understood Big Rob the simpleton to be Robert Baratheon. As for stot, isn’t it another word for an old horse too?

Duncan the tall had a dream that echoed Ned’s. In his dream the horse was named Chestnut. When he woke up he thinks to himself that it didn’t happen like that in real life. Duncan’s Dream

Well, I interpret that to mean that Ned is the only one who has this dream making it a production of his own mind. If the sequence were literal than the dream wouldn’t be solely his. It also wouldn’t be a dream at all. It would be a memory.

Words and phrases can have multiple meanings. Just as I had suggested that the Wall has figuratively (already) fallen, the "tower long fallen" could be interpreted as a defeat just as much as a physical dismantling. King Aerys was keeping Elia and her children in Maegor's holdfast - not so much for their safety as for his belief that it was necessary to ensure the loyalty of House Martell and all of Dorne. He was also paranoid that Rhaegar was plotting to overthrow him. Such valuable hostages would require the very best security - three Kingsguard. The Mad King had 9 Kingsguard: Ser Gwayne Gaunt - died during the Defiance of Duskendale Ser Harlan Grandison - died in his sleep in 281 Ser Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry both died at the Trident Ser Barristan Selmy survived the Trident Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Oswell Whent, and Ser Arthur Dayne died in the conflict with Ned and his men. Ser Jaime Lannister was Harlan Grandison's replacement. The Mad King kept him close, because he feared Tywin Lannister's disloyalty. King Aerys had already sent three Kingsguard to the Trident. He needed three to guard his hostages and one to guard himself. Maegor's holdfast "fell" the day the city was sacked. Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch scaled the tower to murder Elia and her children. Ned saw what they were doing and tried to stop them, but what if he had to fight his way through the Kingsguard stationed along the way to the royal apartments in the same places that they were stationed for King Robert when he lay dying in his bed of blood? Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge. Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king’s bedchamber. Of the three positions, only one may have had a chance at seeing Gregor and Amory climbing: the one stationed at the end of the drawbridge. But, if you were guarding a drawbridge would you be facing the tower? Or would you be facing your attacker? When Cersei feared another sack on Kings Landing during the battle of the Blackwater, she stationed Ser Ilyn Payne at the door to Maegor's holdfast. When Sansa made her way to Maegor's holdfast that night, she noted that the drawbridge was left unguarded. This is significant, because it confirms that this is a station commonly protected by Kingsguard. When Sansa snuck out to see Ser Dontos she checked to see who was guarding that night. One time she notes Ser Boros Blount and another night she noted such a large figure could only be Ser Preston Greenfield.

Some interesting tidbits about Jory Cassel... Jory was Ned's Captain of Guards for eight years. He was very good natured with the children, separating Sansa and Arya once when they had a snow fight, had chased Bran across the roofs of Winterfell many times, and went hunting with Jon, Robb, and Theon. He was like family. Jory's father died fighting alongside Eddard at the tower of joy. Jory joins Robert's hunt for boar before the king departs Winterfell for the south. It is my belief that hunting for boar and being gored by a boar are parallels of Lyanna. Jaime Lannister was squire to Sumner Crakehall for four years. The Crakehall sigil is a striped boar. When Ned and his men faced Jaime Lannister and his guard it was 3 guardsmen against 20. Ned reminded Jaime that if he is killed that Catelyn would kill Tyrion. Jaime instructs his men not to kill Ned. The whole scene seems to be an echo that may have influenced Ned's fever dream where he and his men met the three Kingsguard. King Robert's death in his bed of blood is likely a repeat of Lyanna's bed of blood. The three Kingsguard were positioned on the way to the royal apartments in Maegor's holdfast.

Very evocative of:

GRRM has cleverly written a very descriptive dream, but at the same time doesn't spell out or confirm anything at all. It's all symbolic. Such is the way of dreams. Ned called it "an old dream", but was it old because it occurred frequently or because he hadn't dreamt it in a very long time? And what had just happened right before he blacked out and had the dream? He was attacked by Jaime and his men. All of Ned's men were killed. And Ned imagined the Red Keep's walls looking red as blood. Let me repeat that. His last waking moments were of the Red Keep and its sandstone walls red as blood. The very next Ned chapter begins with the dream. There are allot of assumptions being made by readers according to personal interpretation and preference.

I have one word for this: hogwash! I have a hard time accepting the HBO version as well as the assumptions that are defended rabidly by the R+L=J crowd because I just don’t see it! Until these mysteries are spelled out in a published book and I’ve been proven either right or dead wrong, I’ll continue to believe that the tower of joy was simply a nickname Rhaegar gave to Maegor’s Holdfast, that Lyanna was mortally wounded by Sumner Crakehall, and that Ned found Lyanna near the ruins of Whitewalls on the shore of the Gods Eye.

Wouldn't it be something if the singing of the COTF were a deep, BRAAAAAAH like didgeridoo!

The Earth hums due to a phenomenon known as “microseisms,” which are low-frequency, long-period seismic waves that constantly reverberate through the planet's crust. Even without earthquakes, seismometers constantly record seismic energy. They record periods of oscillations about every 6 seconds as background noise. Earth hum was once thought to be very mysterious in nature. It went unexplained for decades. But now scientists discovered that these oscillations are due to ocean waves constantly crashing into continents. Ocean waves pound continents vibrating like a bell. Then land masses shake back and forth like a metronome. And during storms, it worsens as the reverberations are amplified. The universe is filled with a constant hum of gravitational waves. Gravitational waves are ripples in the fabric of the universe, caused by the motion of giant, accelerating celestial bodies. They travel through space-time like waves in an ocean, but at the speed of light. There's an electrical hum in most animals, including ourselves. Purposeful humming can also help cleanse and detoxify the body by allowing more airflow in the lymphatic system. It eases stress and improves your mood. Yogis have long used humming to wind down and relax the nervous system. They call it "bhramari pranayama". “Bhramari” is derived from the Sanskrit word for bee. It works, because humming causes turbulence in the nasal cavity, which increases the release of a powerful molecule known as nitric oxide. Nitric oxide is a vasodilator, meaning it helps blood flow more easily through the body. Speaking of your Maori and Aboriginal peoples...the first thing that comes to my mind is that deep throated sound the Didgeridoo makes. And lets not forget about hummingbirds...

We've got a formerly respected tv news journalist (now ridiculed conspiracy theorist) over here in Minnesota that made a "documentary" (and I mean that generously) about the "fall" of Minneapolis when people rioted after George Floyd was killed by police. 1300 businesses were damaged with about 100 being severely or completely destroyed including three post offices. I'm not trying to downplay the damage nor do I agree with the rioters, but when a city "falls" then I would expect that the attackers would then gain control over the city which didn't happen. In many people's minds they (still) believe Minneapolis "fell" and that it is now a dangerous place largely left in ruins and run by gangs which would be news to the thousands of people who actually live and work there. Granted, the people that believe this are from rural areas of the state and avoid downtown, preferring to stick to the suburbs to get their Scheels and Fleet Farm shopping done. I'm only using this as an example of how something can be described as "fallen" when it obviously remains intact.

Yeah, that does seem to be an accidental slip, however I guess it depends upon the definition of "fall". Technically the Wall did fall as soon as LC Jon Snow allowed the wildlings through the tunnels. Yes, there are still things beyond the Wall like the wight army that are (for now) still being contained, but with wildlings on the south side now, I would not be surprised if Winds begins with wights on the south side as well. I also still like an old theory of LynnS where she posited that the Wall is blowing away, that originally the Wall drew the cold unto itself accumulating ice and snow through the ages, but that the blizzard that is now emanating - seemingly through Winterfell - is evidence that the reverse is happening. It is expelling itself in the form of a blizzard and blowing away - which would be a fulfillment of this Mirri Maz prophecy: When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east is a reversal of time. When the seas go dry could mean the Narrow Sea and other large bodies of water freezing over and allowing people to walk across. "Mountains" blow in the wind like leaves could be explained as the Wall disintegrating and blowing away.

What we call the early Christians were people who still identified with Judaism. Many of the letters between Paul and the various congregations were clarifications of the law as written in the first 5 books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) which comprise the Torah. These books dictate how to atone for particular sins and the sacrifices needed in order to receive forgiveness which included animal sacrifices and burnt offerings of grain, etc. Paul instructed these congregations that sacrifices were no longer needed since Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, but they still requested guidance on a number of practices that were common to the Jewish faith such as abstaining from eating blood or anything strangled, avoiding bigamy and other sexual immorality, and prohibiting idol worship. The early Jews knew of Jesus and believed he was a prophet, but the large majority didn't believe he was the Messiah. The Jews that believed Jesus was their Messiah began referring to themselves as those who followed "The Way". The earliest known use the term Christianity wasn't until 100 years after Jesus's death.

It’s just something that I was wondering about. I’m afraid I’m an avid reader and love history as well as historical fiction. You actually learn allot about history reading historical fiction! I just see the overall „issue“ of our age to be equal rights for everyone and the age of Aquarius is supposed to be a time of enlightenment both spiritually and figuratively. MLK embodies the time we live in. As for the debate about fishes…I can just imagine the Romans thinking how perfectly the symbolism worked out. I could do a deep dive on this particular subject alone, but I’m just now walking into work!

Martin Luther King Jr has been on my mind lately as well. I have been wondering lately if years from now people will believe he was the "Messiah" for the Age of Aquarius just as Jesus was for the Age of Pisces (2 fishes). I feel I must insert that I am not religious nor do I believe Jesus was a god, but I do believe that the Bible is a collection of historical records and should be viewed as a large history book assembled by the Council of Nicaea in 325 common era at the directive of the Roman emperor Constantine. The "good news" that Jesus was known for has been distorted over time. He was actually a political activist preaching about debt - financial debt that used to be forgiven every Jubilee year. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the jubilee was a time to free slaves, to return land to its rightful owners, and to forgive debts. It was both a time of repentance when injustices were put right and the symbolic beginning of a new era. It was also how rulers were overthrown with the new ruler promising to bring about a Jubilee year - a tradition that the Romans abolished in 313 common era. Is it a coincidence that the council of Nicaea followed so closely after? The Romans created the Christian faith (and gave it a home base in Italy) in order to control the messaging - a sophisticated propaganda campaign that rewrote Jesus's message of forgiveness. How clever of the Romans to turn the message of financial debt forgiveness into the forgiveness of venial sins. The Romans based Christianity on the Zodiac knowing that the symbolism would appeal to the masses which followed a variety of gods including horoscopes. Jesus is symbolized by two fish (Pisces) which matched up with the current astrological age in which they were living (1 CE to 2150 CE). The precession of the equinoxes are roughly 2150 years until we move from one astrological age to the next. In the Bible, Luke 22:10 confirmed that the next "age" would be Aquarius. It states, “When you have entered the city, a man carrying an earthen jar of water will meet you; follow him into the house that he enters." We have about 150 years before we are officially in the age of Aquarius. Maybe some political giant as clever as the Romans will make MLK or someone like him be the prophet of this age?

I saw something else when I was looking at the timeline...Pycelle told Tyrion that he helped Jon Arryn die. Lyssa Arryn takes credit for giving him the tears of Lys, but Pycelle told Tyrion that Maester Colemon was treating him properly, but that the Queen (Cersei) needed him dead. Ironically, I think Pycelle made an assumption that it was the Queen that had Jon Arryn poisoned.

I don't think the text describes in detail when Tyrion poisoned his father. The only text that I've uncovered so far are the two passages that are two Tyrion chapters apart in A Storm of Swords. It's interesting that the claim by Pycelle that Tyrion stole his poisons is from Swords Tyrion IX (chapter 66) while the line about knowing where to find his father (on the privy) is Swords Tyrion XI (chapter 77). I would call this a very subtle revelation. Yes, Pycelle claims Tyrion took all his poisons, but by the time we get to Tyrion XI and the line about knowing where to find his father, we dismiss the line because its been several chapters from the accusation that we sort of forget about it and then Tywin didn't actually die from poisoning and maybe this is why Tyrion decided he needed to make sure the job was finished before he left? Here's a handy link for chapters. Joffrey's poisoning occurs prior to Tywin's assassination by Tyrion, but Tyrion (while acting as Hand during his father's absence) took Pycelle's poisons from him in A Clash of Kings - the book before Swords. Pycelle isn't restored to his position to make his complaint against Tyrion until Tywin returns as Hand in Swords. Tywin's poisoning is probably one of the three-fold revelations that we were discussing up thread. I'm thinking we remove the Cressen poisoning from the group and make Tywin's poisoning the first and most subtle of the three. Joffrey's poisoning would remain as the second and more blatant poisoning, with Ser Gregor Clegane remaining as the third and most spelled out poisoning.

Here it is: That is a curious line. It does sound like it suggests Tyrion knew something.

That'd be cool though!

I don't know if its supposed to be a tradition to share goblets when toasting or for a bride and groom to share one at their wedding feast, but there does seem to be something "blatant" and "spelled out" with regards to having a three-foot tall golden wedding chalice with seven bejeweled sides and large handles on either side. The description sounds like a championship trophy! It's an attention grabber. It screams off the page to pay attention to the huge-ass chalice!

I had read something too...something that made him constipated and that is why he was sitting so long on the toilet in the first place. I'm assuming the gut shot is why Tywin smelled so bad and the large amount of stool in his colon.

This too bothered me all evening. I'd like to retract my post for now. Oberyn used venom. Then I thought the third was Jon Arryn, but Lyssa used Tears of Lys on him. GRRM does utilize a three-fold strategy, but I think I used an incomplete example. This doesn't change my thoughts that Melisandre's shared cup with Cressen was intended to be similar to Joffrey's poisoning though. Like you say, perhaps there will be a third one yet to come.