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Bernie Mac

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  1. Bernie Mac


    The Baratheons are the next in line if all Targaryens are dead or exempt from inheriting. His claim should not be from Robert but from his great grandmother. Obviously I'd imagine that Lords would scoff at someone born a peasant be made King and refuse him on that principle, but then they happily elected a cripple with no claim to the Throne. Bran was a main character, Gendry a secondary one so its obvious why one was chosen above the other, but even going on Tyrion's justification of 'who has the better story' the peasant becoming Prince is the better story than Bran's confusing one about going North, sitting in a cave and coming home. The average Westerosi is not even going to understand Bran's story. Gendry's is a staple of literature in any civilization.
  2. We know that, his family know that. Do the majority of people know that? Even the Northern and Vale lords at Winterfell are not really going to be aware of that. He's the creepy kid in a wheel chair who barely speaks sense. The line 'Bran's the three eyed raven' is mumbo jumbo to pretty much every Westerosi lord, we the viewers who have followed Bran's journey are still not entirely sure what on earth it means and we've seen his importance and journey. Bran being elected king in the show is pure fanservice. Not saying the books will be any different, but from the episodes we've seen him being accepted as King seems unlikely. The prevailing view in the first season by the average Westerosi, including the monarch, was he was better of dead than a wretched cripple.
  3. Bernie Mac

    Strongest Lannister Vassal

    That is not a Golden rule, its an idiotic one. Mace married a Hightower, its done him no harm, its strengthened his House. His mother was a Redwyne, the second strongest Vassal, and also strengthened his House. Balon Greyjoy married into his most powerful vassals, the Harlaws, it did him no harm. This is a golden rule that exists in your head, not in the middle ages. Hoster simply did not like Walder, but we know he was willing to marry his brother to a Frey but the Blackfish. This rule you made up does not exist. We have zero idea if the Martells follow it with the Yronwoods. Quentyn is either a paedophile or he suspected him marrying a Yronwood was acceptable at some point. I want to go back to Yronwood and kiss both of your sisters, marry Gwyneth Yronwood, watch her flower into beauty, have a child by her Addam was raised at Casterly Rock, the Cleganes are not on the same level. I'd say the Brax are slightly above the Marbrands given Tyrion's introduction, and need to impress, the Dornish party "Let me present Ser Flement Brax, heir to Hornvale. Lord Gyles of Rosby. Ser Addam Marbrand, Lord Commander of the City Watch. Jalabhar Xho, Prince of the Red Flower Vale. Ser Harys Swyft, my uncle Kevan's good father by marriage. Ser Merlon Crakehall. Ser Philip Foote and Ser Bronn of the Blackwater, two heroes of our recent battle against the rebel Stannis Baratheon. And mine own squire, young Podrick of House Payne." The names had a nice ringing sound as Tyrion reeled them off, but the bearers were nowise near as distinguished nor formidable a company as those who accompanied Prince Oberyn, as both of them knew full well." Given Addam's status as Lord Commander, he'd be expected to be listed first if Marbrand and Brax were equal status, both being heirs of their respective Houses (Addam being the guaranteed heir while Flement merely a younger brother to boot, recently made heir).
  4. Bernie Mac

    Books vs Show: How much difference?

    Tend to agree, I assume Jon will end up back at the Wall. The people of Westeros have no idea what the Others are, if there are more of them out there, how they came into existence in the first place. The Watch, whether the Wall is intact or not, is going to remain and become heavily funded by the realm. If Earth was invaded by aliens and we managed to survive and win the leaders of Earth are not suddenly going to give up on Space defence, more money would spent on it. I agree. I doubt it will last in the show. GRRM can end it like that in the books, but the world he has established means that the reader can take it for granted that such a system is not going to last or at the very least be abused by a smaller group of powerful Houses to remain in power. Given Pycelle was a very young man when appointed I don't have a problem with Sam becoming Archmaester as soon as he becomes a Maester given his connections. Also him having a mistress is not a game changer unless a very religious King/Hand is appointed. If she marries again. We may be seeing another Jeyne Arryn/Elizabeth analogue. I have no problem with Coldhands or another similar being carrying Bran back to the Wall. Would he? Madness is not necessarily the problem, others thinking she has gone too far and needs to be stopped is. I can see that happening, especially if she loses two of her Dragons, and many of her supporting cast from the last few books. Cersei was not mad in the first book, questionably not so in the second or most of the third but the loss of both Joffrey and Tywin turns her into a paranoid mess. It does not take an entire book, it takes loss and being put into certain situations that send her over the edge.
  5. Maybe the won't in the future. The new Martell Lord is likely a second or third cousin, with not the same hold on Dorne as his cousin and not in a position to simply leave ASAP without consulting his Lords. It may even be that he was not next in line and only got the seat due to the support of the Crown, needing them to back him up. Yara makes no sense, but I'm guessing they needed someone to speak up in defense of Dany. Edmure and the Vale Lords were not going to do so and they likely did not want to have one of the 'extra's' do it. I doubt the North cares. Sansa does though, for the last two series Northern independence has been one of the central themes to her story. As the voice of the North at that council she got to request what she wanted. She may not have been so bold if it was not one her brothers or Tyrion put in charge, but she can expect peace with Bran and Tyrion ruling the realm. More importantly why would they accept a cripple who his own subjects are calling him 'The Broken'. His small council is a hated kingslayer Dwarf as Hand, a female Lord Commander of Kingsguard, Sam, a joke among the Reach nobles and two former criminals who were born peasants. This is a crown that is going to be challenged often.
  6. Bernie Mac

    The Six Kingdoms

    Outside of Sam I doubt there was any representation from the Reach and Westerlands. They were the losers in this war, sending potential hostages or victims so soon to Kings Landing will not have been a wise move to make given the bloodshed.
  7. Bernie Mac

    [Spoilers] Episode 806 Discussion

    Jaime was spared when he killed the King and that turned out awful for the realm. I'd say they wisely did not want a repeat of that. I'd also guess that after murdering the second woman he was ever in love with and watching Kings Landing be decimated he probably did not want to stick around. Him returning to the place he called Home for the past 5 years actually makes a lot of sense. I agree about Tyrion, but who is to say that is not going to end in disaster. A cripple king, a hated dwarf as Hand, a female Commander of the Kingsguard and two up jumped peasants on the Small Council is a recipe for disaster. I give it two summers before the first rebellion. It would have made more sense if that Council picked her to be Queen given Robin, Royce and, presumably the other Vale Lord, would have voted for her, Edmure, already intimidated by her Cat impression, would have done so as would have Tyrion and the other Starks if they got a vote. Bran makes little sense given there is no real evidence to most of Westeros of why he is so special or that there realm was in any real threat given all the Others simply exploded. Sansa being Queen would have meant the North remaining.
  8. Bernie Mac

    [Spoilers] Episode 806 Discussion

    Some nameless Lord. Impossible to know which region from, he may be another Riverlander given that there was three representatives from the North, possibly three from the Vale, three, maybe four from the Stormlands, or possibly someone from the Reach. He was in-between Edmure and Sam so I'm guessing he was either from the Reach or Riverlands but given he said nothing when they were trying to give the Unsullied the Reach the Riverlands seem the logical guess. I think people are less upset about him being a Lord or a Small Council member but him being given the entire Reach. I don't have an issue with it given that Littlefinger was born only slightly better off and was appointed Lord of the Riverlands as reward for serving the Lannisters. It also makes sense politically given the Reach was against the coalition of winners that inherited the Throne. Keeping a puppet Lord who owes his power to the Throne is a bonus, Bronn remaining in power and not being overthrown in the future is not a guarantee.
  9. It's not a thing until it is a thing. Robert was king, he can do what he wants. Replacing a Kingsguard member is not something that most of the kingdom will care about. As long as there is not a chance the action will cause a rebellion then Robert could do what he pleased. No, he was not. There were the Kingsguard appointed by Aegon's III Regents who were dismissed by Aegon. One day they were in the KG, the next they were not. A king can do as he pleased, he can create precedents. Cersei was hardly creative, she pensioned him off. No, it would not. It's a case of convincing the King it was a good idea. The same king usurped the crown when there were others with better claims. He's open to making history. Only after the finds out he has threatened the lives of his grandsons. Being the Patriarch of House Lannister means protecting them, not threatening them over whores. We'll never know if Tyrion could have jumped through enough hoops to convince his father he'd be a suitable heir but Tywin never made anyone else his heir nor did he write a will declaring Tyrion's rights to the Rock null and void. Legally Tyrion was still the heir till he murdered his father. Tywin, a private conversation between him and Tyrion apart, had not done anything that changed the line of succession. Yeah, he was. It's right there in the chapter. "My whorehouse?" The dawn broke; Tyrion understood all at once where this bile had come from. He ground his teeth together and said, "Cersei told you about Alayaya." "Is that her name? I confess, I cannot remember the names of all your whores. Who was the one you married as a boy?" "Tysha." He spat out the answer, defiant. "And that camp follower on the Green Fork?" "Why do you care?" he asked, unwilling even to speak Shae's name in his presence. "I don't. No more than I care if they live or die." "It was you who had Yaya whipped." It was not a question. "Your sister told me of your threats against my grandsons." Lord Tywin's voice was colder than ice. "Did she lie?" Tyrion would not deny it. "I made threats, yes. To keep Alayaya safe. So the Kettleblacks would not misuse her." "To save a whore's virtue, you threatened your own House, your own kin? Is that the way of it?" "You were the one who taught me that a good threat is often more telling than a blow. Not that Joffrey hasn't tempted me sore a few hundred times. If you're so anxious to whip people, start with him. But Tommen . . . why would I harm Tommen? He's a good lad, and mine own blood." "As was your mother." Lord Tywin rose abruptly, to tower over his dwarf son. "Go back to your bed, Tyrion, and speak to me no more of your rights to Casterly Rock. You shall have your reward, but it shall be one I deem appropriate to your service and station. And make no mistake—this was the last time I will suffer you to bring shame onto House Lannister. You are done with whores. The next one I find in your bed, I'll hang." Tyrion understands why Tywin is so angry. Tytos almost ruined the Lannisters by allowing his paramour, a whore in Tywin's eyes, to come before the good of the House and the Westerlands. Tyrion by threatening his own nephews over a whore was repeating, only much worse, the mistakes of Tytos. He was ill suited to rule. It is the only reason? Probably not, but at no point in the story both before and after this scene does Tyrion's disinheritance be brought up. Tyrion threatening his nephews is a major reason for it. It seems so. His shield now is stripped in four, two of the quarters are the sigil of House Arryn, one of House Waynwood and one of House Hardyng. He's already playing up his Arryn lineage to Robin's annoyance. It doesn't, it's 300 years old. But that's not really the point, its a smoother transition if he adopts the Lannister name to take control of the Westerlands. And its kind of common sense. The ruler of the Westerlands is already hugely powerful, him having a strong claim to the throne is a recipe for disaster for future generations. ? Hardly. If Joffrey was king with heirs of his own Tommen embracing the Lannister name is actually good for the Crown. It secures Tommen and his heir's seat of power from his Lannister cousins in the West and it secures Joffrey and his heirs from potential threats from other sons and grandsons of Robert Baratheon with the military power to topple the king.
  10. No more than the average Lord in Westeros, in the books at least. They are all concerned about the legacy of their Houses, about leaving it in a secure place and hopefully stronger than when they inherited it. Ned, Mace, Doran, Hoster are all on the same page as Tywin when it comes to this. Have you not seen the family tree? He had many spares. Many nephews, nieces and cousins to inherit the Westerlands. Tyrek and Lancel were following in his (and his uncle Tion's) footsteps by paging/squiring for Royalty. This is a prestigious education for a noble in the middle ages. Another nephew was a page at Casterly Rock, receiving his education from Tywin while clearly Daven, the current Warden of the West, and Damion, the current Castellan of the Rock, have had suitable enough educations that they are capable of leading. Sons or daughters don't always inherit, when the Houses are thousands of years old it is the Name that matters, not whether the heir is a son, grandson, nephew or cousin of Tywin. There will have been many Lannister rulers who saw another branch inherit. It does not change their 'legacy'. Jon Arryn was in the same boat before Robert's Rebellion. He was more than happy to at first allow his nephew to be his heir and later a niece married to a distant Arryn cousin. It was only after their deaths and the need to bring Hoster on the rebel side did he actually remarry. Before that him being succeeded by another branch was not a big issue. Obviously Tywin wants Jaime to inherit. Not only is he is first born son but he actually has all the makings of a great medieval leader. He's a great warrior, a capable commander, fairly intelligent and commands the respect of the Westerland nobles. But having a preference for Jaime does not mean he has a problem with the other Lannister alternatives. Presumably it was either Jaime. Robert owed Tywin millions, I imagine one day that debt would have been forgiven with Robert freeing Jaime of his vows. Tyrion and his heirs had he gotten his act together, proved himself responsible and provided healthy heirs. It is only after Tywin learns that Tyrion has threatened the lives of his grandsons that he disinherits him (a pretty tame punishment). Tommen, though he'd have to have adopted the Lannister name A nephew The point is Tywin is not stuck for an heir, as Cat mentions "Another nephew?" The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house". House Lannister has plenty of heirs.
  11. Bernie Mac

    Why did Tywin lie about Tysha?

    He believed that a homeless orphan who had known his dwarf son a few weeks was not truly in love with him, nor was Tyrion in love with her. They barely knew each other. This is not Tywin being a dick to Tyrion, had Cersei ran off and married a homeless peasant he'd be found dead in a ditch somewhere. For what its worth I'm not even sure Tysha had any choice in the marriage. She would have been too scared to say no to a Lannister for fear of the consequences. But no one should begrudge her saying yes even if it was for security and a better life. The vast amount of noble marriages are done for similar reasons. I also don't think happiness comes into it. Nobles rarely marry for love, and the few that do, like Doran, end up no happier in the long run.
  12. Bernie Mac

    The Missing Hand

    Dude, weak, weak diagnosis. Gladly. How on earth have you came to this conclusion? He's the most powerful Lord in Westeros, the father-in-law to the King and grandfather to royalty. He's not deluded enough to crown himself king, to directly challenge Aerys by himself and to recognize that Robert was more powerful him towards the There is nothing exaggerated about his self- importance in their society. Your argument is incredibly flawed if you are leading with this. Go on then, 10 examples of him requiring "constant, excessive admiration"? lol are you serious? Do you really not understand the premise of the series? Tywin, Ned, Doran etc. are not called Lords due to narcism, its the culture of their world. By all means quote examples from the book. Except this is clearly not true. During Robert's reign he was happy to sit on the sidelines, no position on the Small Council for Tywin, zero suggestion that he tried or insisted to do so. By all means, evidence of these fantasies? That's a society issue, not a Tywin one. The nobles believe they are superior, they tend to socialize with other nobles. Westeros is an elitist society. Again, not actually true. Tywin's MO at council meetings is to say little, let others talk and have Kevan sheppard the conversation. Nor is he often belittling people, people like Ser Swyft are socially beneath him, as are the likes of Varys and Littlefinger, he's not constantly belittling them. Again, you can't be this unaware of the society of Westeros, can you? 5 examples of this? Infact Tywin's calmness and willingness to work with Aerys in the face of constant disrespect kind of disproves that. Obviously Tywin is not a robot, he's human, there are instances of anger but not to the level you are suggesting. Evidence? Evidence? This is clearly not true, he's incredibly calm in the council meeting on hearing Jaime's defeat, it is only after he is alone with Tyrion and Kevan does he show emotion to the capture of Jaime. The same is true at Harrenhal when the war is looking bleak he, from the POV of Arya, remains composed and professional. Also when he learns of Tyrion's threats on his Grandsons, he keeps his (more than justified) anger a private matter between father & son. We've seen this once, upon Tyrion admitting the truth of threatening the lives of his grandsons. It is not usual Tywin behaviour. He barely demonstrates any of them and the ones he does are a societal problem. The fact that you don't get that is a little bizarre, either you are deliberately missing the point or your reading of the series is lacking. Elia is a Princess, Tysha a homeless peasant. Westeros does not view them as being equal. Westeros is a caste system, the nobility are thought of as better so as sickening and unfair to us, in their world Elia is not comparable to Tysha. Its similar to how Robb refuses to trade Jaime for his sisters, they are not worth the same or how Robb is willing to trade a 100 men for Jon. "If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon's place, I'll wager they find some way to release him from his vows." GRRM has been more than clear on the hierarchy of Westeros. An awful part of medieval war. But Aegon and Rhaenys are certainly up there. Castamere was not, castles and their occupants are destroyed in wars, especially when they refuse to surrender. "That will not be easily done," her uncle cautioned. "Lord Frey has pulled his whole strength back inside his castles, and his gates are closed and barred." "Damn the man," Robb swore. "If the old fool does not relent and let me cross, he'll leave me no choice but to storm his walls. I'll pull the Twins down around his ears if I have to, we'll see how well he likes that!" Tyrion was not arrested, he was abducted and Cat purposefully lied about where she was taking him. "Abductions on the kingsroad and drunken slaughter in my streets," the king said. "I will not have it, Ned." Tywin acted like most nobles do, Robb also goes to war when his father is legally arrested. Do you not understand what quotation marks are for? Tywin never claims that he was not to blame, just that he never ordered it and he (nobody else) was not aware of what Gregor was. He's not saying he's blameless, pointing out he made a mistake. Yeah, he did. If you can find a quote from the author or the text disputing the 20 years of peace then please provide it, otherwise its just whining about the accomplishments of a character you don't like and has nothing to do with the topic. lol come on. 20 years of peace does not mean not a single fight broke out in those 20 years. This is needlessly pedantic. In the 20 years Tywin was Hand it was far more peaceful than the 20 years before and the 20 years after But they didn't. did they? You truly are grasping. What about it? How does it relate to narcissism? At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! - Kevan Its not like Tytos' other mistresses suffered similar punishments, just the one who stole from the Lannisters eh? Please go on, elaborate. Go into further detail as I'm more than happy to go over this one with you, but be less vague. Outside of Tysha, his treatment of Tyrion has been fine. Few, if any, dwarfs in their society have been treated better than Tyrion. "At his son's hand, aye." The lord took a drink of beer. "When there were kings on the Sisters, we did not suffer dwarfs to live. We cast them all into the sea, as an offering to the gods. The septons made us stop that. A pack of pious fools. Why would the gods give a man such a shape but to mark him as a monster?" Evidence? Evidence for the two that his rule of the Westerlands was not good that his term as Hand was not good No, it was not. It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown's dispute with the Braavosi (though without "making the Titan kneel," to the king's displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock, thereby taking the debts upon himself. This benefits the realm far more than it does Tywin Tywin built new roads and repaired old ones, held many splendid tournaments about the realm to the delight of knights and commons both, cultivated trade with the Free Cities, and sternly punished bakers found guilty of adding sawdust to their bread and butchers selling horsemeat as beef. This benefits the realm far more than it does Tywin You are clearly getting petty right now, as if benefitting the realm and benefiting himself are mutually exclusive. They are not. Do you not understand medieval culture? Pretty much every father would want their daughter to marry a Prince. Arya cocked her head to one side. "Can I be a king's councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?" "You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon." Trying to get a brother a good position is not narcism. In the real world the vast majority of people will have tried to do something similar for family or friends. Yawn You genuinely seem to lack understanding on almost everything you have posted.
  13. Bernie Mac

    The Missing Hand

    How? His twenty years as Hand to Aerys was hardly a bad thing for the realm. Also curious how you've assessed that teenage Tywin is a narcissistic-sociopath? We don;t know how many Hands Aegon III had before he appointed his brother or who they were, just that Viserys became his Hand in the last years of his reign. His brother, Prince Viserys—who in his last years served as his Hand—had the gift of charm, but he himself grew stern after his wife abandoned him and their children for her native Lys.
  14. Bernie Mac

    What are Lannister/Tyrell family reunions like?

    What makes you think the above? Tully; Hoster and Brynden had not spoken in almost two decades, even before that their relationship was prickly. The same for Hoster's relationship with Lysa, who he forced to marry. Cat and Lysa reunite after a decade of not seeing each other and there was little warmth or fun involved. Cat returns to Riverrun and neither she or Brynden are particularly warm to Edmure. Baratheon; All three brothers seem to dislike each other on some level, they are bonded through blood, not through choice. I can't imagine any of the three enjoying being stuck in a room with the other two. Stark; Ned and Benjen's closest relatives are their cousins in the Vale. Robb had to be reminded of their existence before he disinherited them in favor of a bastard serving on the Wall. This does not suggest a close relationship. Arryn; In Jon's time he was happy to have both a nephew and distant cousin as heir, both had positions of prestige under Jon (knight of the Gate & Keeper of the Gates of the Moon) suggesting closeness. Now though its clear there is a rivalry between sickly Robin and his heir, Harry. I imagine those other branches are watching closely. The Tyrells and Lannisters likely have better reunions than most of these simply due to wealth and more positions available/afforded them in their respective regions. Genna and Daven are immediately warm and friendly to Jaime, as are his cousin Cleos and distant cousin Addam Marbrand. Kevan seemed fond of Tywin and his children up until Tyrion 'murdered' Joffrey and he learnt the incest was true. Lancel was clearly a fan of Jaime and Cersei. Going back 40 years when Tywin went to war without his father's permission his younger brothers, Kevan and Tygett, joined him as well as his cousins from House Prester and Marbrand. A Lannister family reunion would be fun in spite of Tywin.
  15. Bernie Mac

    Greatest battle commanders at the start of ASoIaF

    According to both the author, Stannis and Tyrion he could have Estermont will favor settling down to starve them out, as Tyrell and Redwyne once tried with me. That might take a year, but old mules are patient. - Stannis Storm's End is a hugely formidable castle, and should have been able to hold out much longer, as it did during Robert's Rebellion when Stannis was inside rather than outside. - GRRM "Both of them." Storm's End was strong, it should have been able to hold out for half a year or more . . . time enough for his father to finish with Robb Stark. "How did this happen?" - Tyrion Stannis holding out was an accomplishment, but this idea that he alone was capable of doing so is not backed up by the text. Indeed. Why didn't Stannis take him up on it? Why resort to using a deus ex machina? 8:1? No, it was not. How does this apply to Robb? He wisely fled North after Tywin and the Tyrells united, he never faced them in battle. Yes, it can also be about that. No one has ever disputed that, but your idea that a commander can only be regarded as great if he wins unexpectedly makes zero sense and not what this thread was asking for. Those are not the only reasons they are considered great commanders. Or are you under the impression they are? And lets face facts, Tywin was in a dire situation at Harrenhall. With the vast majority of the realm against him he was facing far greater odds than Alexander, Napoleon, Charles XII and Ceasar. He still came out victorious. No, the Battle of Blackwater was achieved on the Battlefield. The clues in the name. It's funny you don't hold Robb to the same standard. His victories at the Camps and Whispering Wood was only achieved thanks to diplomacy and his mother gaining Frey support. What kind of logic is this? People in Westeros do consider Tywin an impressive commander. "Peter the Great was not impressive therefore Tywin is not" is an exceptionally dumb argument to make. Go into detail if you want to make that case, list the similarities in their command structure and we can properly debate them, but what you are doing is pretty weak. But it is, it's Robb's most impressive victory. "Even to me?" Theon's anger flared. He'd led men in war, hunted with a king, won honor in tourney melees, ridden with Brynden Blackfish and Greatjon Umber, fought in the Whispering Wood Its correctly viewed as one of the most impressive victories in the war. "I broke him of that." Amused, Theon behaved himself for a while, chatting amiably of the weather (grey and overcast, as it had been since he arrived, with frequent rains) and telling her of the men he'd killed in the Whispering Wood. When he reached the part about coming that close to the Kingslayer himself, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He tossed his bow back to Wex and strode off, remembering how elated he'd felt after the Whispering Wood, and wondering why this did not taste as sweet. Tallhart, you bloody overproud fool, you never even sent out a scout. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Nor have I. The Starks knew my worth. I was one of Brynden Blackfish's picked scouts, and I charged with the first wave in the Whispering Wood. I was that close to crossing swords with the Kingslayer himself." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Theon stared at the flames over the rim of his wine goblet, brooding on the injustice of it all. "I rode beside Robb Stark in the Whispering Wood," he muttered. Its the battle that Theon repeatedly boasts about, not the battle of the camps, the battle that Cat uses to show Renly her son is a threat "I was at the Whispering Wood, my lord. I have seen enough butchery. I came here an envoy—" Robb outnumbering Jaime around 2:1 does not stop it from being impressive. All you are doing is highlighting your confusion of what the word 'impressive' means. No one in Westeros agrees with you. Did he? Robb was 6,000 cavalry, plus the remnants of the Riverland army against a sleeping 8,000 infantry. Your math is shocking. Even with the 4,000 with Prester unable to get involved due to the river does it come nowhere near double. Why do you continue to spread misinformation? Sure, and yet the Whispering Wood is the more impressive. Perhaps attacking a sleeping army is not seen as impressive to most people. But each to their own, if you want to argue attacking sleeping armies or drunk armies is more impressive then thats okay, I'm just here to point out that is not the popular opinion. GRRM points out that the Royal Navy, Ironborn Navy and Redwyne Navy are all comparable https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Lannister_Fleet Stannis outnumbered the Ironborn King Robert dared. Robert Baratheon, the First of His Name, had won everlasting glory on the Trident. Swift to respond, the young king called his banners and sent his brother Stannis, Lord of Dragonstone, around Dorne with the royal fleet. Warships from Oldtown and the Arbor and the Reach joined their strength to his. Look up the word. You can't just decide to change the meaning of words and then argue that your made up understanding of the word is correct. 5,000 losses from a 17,000 army is an impressive victory. Where is it claimed that camp (specifically) held 30k to 40k? Sure. Why are you holding Tywin to a different standard? Your hatred for the character is blinding you to being objective in this discussion. Again, look up the word impressive. impressive adjective UK /ɪmˈpres.ɪv/ US /ɪmˈpres.ɪv/ B2 If an object or achievement is impressive, you admire or respect it, usually because it is special, important, or very large: The Battle of Blackwater was impressive given it was both an important and large victory. At this point choosing to be ignorant of the words meaning is just stubbornness on your part.
  16. Bernie Mac

    Greatest battle commanders at the start of ASoIaF

    According to who? Both Stannis and the author point out that Penrose would have held out for a similar length of time. Stannis did well, but no need to exaggerate his achievement. He did not. The Westerlands army is not 8 times larger than the combined armies of the North and Riverlands. Westeros was the battlefield, Robb lost on it. Being a great battle commander is not about being a maverick, it is about organization, discipline, patience,logistics and pragmatism. Historically the best battle commanders did not have magical direwolves, shadowbabies or dragons to make their victories more glamorous they relied on doing the ordinary very, very well. The only thing extraordinary about Tywin is his success in war. It clearly is, they still sing about it 40 years later. Connington rues the fact that he was not similarly as ruthless. Being ruthless in war is often impressive, whether you find it to be or not. Ah so you were complimenting Tywin. Good to know. No one claimed you did, did they? Can you quote the person who claimed you said that just so we can stop this pointless need for strawman arguments. It actually was. Roose lost between a third and quarter of his host, around 5,000 of his 17,000 men. By the very definition of the word the victory was impressive. You don't get to change the meaning of words because you have an issue with a fictional character. impressive adjective uk /ɪmˈpres.ɪv/ us /ɪmˈpres.ɪv/ B2 If an object or achievement is impressive, you admire or respect it, usually because it is special, important, or very large: The Battle of the Green Fork saw a large amount of the enemy army defeated, it was impressive. Tywin's win was not close, it was not narrow it was emphatically one sided, it was impressive. As was Jaime at the Whispering Wood and Victarion at Fair Isle. Both Robb and Stannis had far greater numerical advantages than Tywin did on the Green Fork. Their victories are still correctly regarded as impressive. Either you don't actually know the meaning of the words you are using or you are not judging every character to the same standard. When you can no longer be objective about a character then you are not really in a position to properly evaluate them. And? Tywin can only defeat what is infront of him. Robb decided to keep the best units for himself and give Roose the inferior army. He lost between a third and quarter of his men. It was a pretty one sided victory. The fact that you can't admit that says more about you than it does Tywin. Sure. How does that detract from him? Successful battle commanders like the odds in their favor, they pick the battles they fight knowing the advantages are with them. lol you think Stannis attacking an undefended camp full of women and children was not the expected result? Soon they were among the tents. It was the usual wildling camp; a sprawling jumble of cookfires and piss pits, children and goats wandering freely, sheep bleating among the trees, horse hides pegged up to dry. There was no plan to it, no order, no defenses. But there were men and women and animals everywhere. Many ignored him, but for every one who went about his business there were ten who stopped to stare; children squatting by the fires, old women in dog carts, cave dwellers with painted faces, raiders with claws and snakes and severed heads painted on their shields, all turned to have a look. Sam could have led those same troops to victory in that battle. And? How is that fooling him though? You keep on using words without actually understanding them. If Robb was not really in the West and Robb made Tywin go West then that would be fooling him. If Tywin was unaware of the threat of Stannis/Renly and left for the West that too would be fooling him. Tywin is not fooled in this situation, he is fighting a war on multiple fronts and took a calculated gamble based on the best intel he had at the time. He was not fooled by Robb, he was fooled by a Shadowbaby. His record is impressive. In the War of the Five Kings he won the most decisive and impressive battle of the war. Your distaste for the character, or not realizing the meaning of the words you are using does not change that. Again, you confusing unexpected for impressive is the issue here. Actually he did. There are multiple entrances into the West, Edmure simply forced Tywin to look for another way. The battle of the Green Fork consisted of many feints, with the Westerland forces looking for an opening, failing, falling back and going again.
  17. Bernie Mac

    Greatest battle commanders at the start of ASoIaF

    Battle command (BC) is the art and science of visualizing, describing, directing, and leading forces in operations against a hostile, thinking, and adaptive enemy. Tywin more than fits the definition.
  18. Bernie Mac

    Greatest battle commanders at the start of ASoIaF

    Yeaa... NOPE! Robert is. He successfully won two civil wars. Stannis' record right now is inferior to Tywin's but being still alive he can rectify that.
  19. Bernie Mac

    Greatest battle commanders at the start of ASoIaF

    He is. His record is impressive. A 16 year old dying in his first war, after losing his home, is not impressive. A man close to 60 who has commanded in Four victorious wars is impressive. Yup. I agree. How does that detract from his record as a commander? Roger Reyne was also ruthless, being ruthless is not a negative in medieval war. It's bizarre that you are suggesting it is. I'm sorry but it is. He used logistics and speed to defeat an enemy piecemeal before they could do the same to him. It was as impressive as Robb and Stannis' most renowned victories (Whispering Wood and Fair Isle) were they outnumbered their enemy and took them by surprise. He was victorious and the enemy army lost around a quarter of its force. How was he fooled? Was Robb not in the West? Was Robb in communication with Stannis? According to the author Tywin went to deal with Robb due to Stannis trying to take Storm's End. Tywin was fighting a war on multiple fronts he did not have luxury of Robb who abandoned the North to focus on one enemy. Knowing when to retreat and preserve an army is incredibly important in war. Not all battles are winnable due to strategic position. You seem to be naive to many of the facets of actual command. Julius Caesar constantly knew when to retreat when the battle was not going his way, its not something to be ashamed of in war
  20. Bernie Mac

    Greatest battle commanders at the start of ASoIaF

    I'd put Robert at the top, Tywin's record puts him in the top 3. Successful commanders pick when they fight and know when to retreat rather than over commit. Which battles are you referring to? Brynden enters the war when its two kingdoms versus one, being outnumbered is not his problem. That's not true. For most of the war the Crown's enemies heavily outnumbered them. But overall the series reflects the reality of the series, commanders with the larger force or superior units won battles. Edmure stops Tywin from crossing the Fords. In the grand scheme of the war it was an inconvenience. Robert certainly. Ned, not better but possibly a similar level. Tully not so much. He's older than Tywin with a far less impressive record as a commander. Superior knight no question, but not commander.
  21. Yes, his defences. He can't exactly ask Tallhart or Glover to strengthen White Harbor's defences and not expect Manderly to realize. If you don't think Ned wanted to keep this a secret why did he ask Cat to deal with it when she was weeks, maybe months, from reaching the North. Why not send a raven. The Manderly's have managed to build a Navy in secret, strengthening and repairing his defenses is far less noteworthy.
  22. When was the last time an invading army marched south and reached Moat Cailin? To what end? Give examples of the type of people travelling 300 miles up the causeway and the reasons the Northern border control will reject their entrance. Who are these people trying to sneak into the North for nefarious reasons but too dumb to lie to a Northern guard about it? What happens to the Watch recruits? Will they be denied entry? The North literally has Wildlings and Ironborn terrorising their borders and rather than deal with that you'd rather try to police the one border that has not been threatened in many centuries.
  23. Can you not see the obvious difference between the castles you mentioned and the ruins of Moat Cailin? Lord Stark has a 100 extra soldiers should he station them in a ruin that has not been attacked in many, many centuries station them on lands on the Western coast to help stop his people moving inland due to Ironborn ravaging station them on lands near the new gift to help combat wildling raiding There are better uses for such a surplus than a vanity garrison at Moat Cailin.
  24. Is the Bloody gate not on fertile lands? Is the garrison being subsidized by other Lords? And the Bloody Gate helps protect the Vale from the Mountain Clans. Close borders and frequent attacks. If Moat Cailin was not 300 miles from the border and the North had a less cordial relationship with the Riverlands I'd see your point The Shield Islands supports four lords, their garrison is not being subsidized by the Tyrells. Westeros is 1 kingdom. The North is not policing who they let in. Bandits from the Riverlands are not making 600 mile journeys to raid the Northern lands around Moat Cailin. Its easily explained.
  25. You don't see a difference between a castle with fertile lands, a rich lord and likely mines having a garrison and a ruin located on unlivable land . The Leffords are a rich house, they have reason to invest and defend their castle.