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Bernie Mac

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  1. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Sorry, what is your point? Do you disagree with the my point that the Northern soldiers were pillaging from the Riverland smallfolk?
  2. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Why would you? Cat is the first POV we hear about the Riverlands and she is not going to be told that, the Riverlords who themselves have been burning their own fields to starve the Lannisters are not going to be reporting Northern atrocities to Cat. Arya is told that but she only makes her move away from Harrenhal after the Blackwater and Brienne hears about the monstrosities of the Wolves and Lions in AFFC. Which character were you expecting to hear this from? "Would I tell you if I did?" The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference? The wife and I found them dead. The way we see it, the place is ours now." - A Storm of Swords - Jaime II This, according to the timeline document, happens less than three weeks after the battle of Blackwater. Already Wolves are mentioned in the same breath as Lions. That does not suggest that the smallfolk were particularly fond of them. The books are full of lions and wolves being a blight on the smallfolk of the Riverlands https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=lions+and+wolves&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc It is naïve to think that it is a recent development, an army has to eat and the monologue of the broken man explains exactly how armies operate during a war. "If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. When Robb marched South he had no idea what he was doing, he did not know there was going to be a year long war, he did not even have the supplies to stay at Moat Cailin. Roose's army would need to feed themselves, they'd be pillaging from the smallfolk. Lem glowered. "Your lion friends ride into some village, take all the food and every coin they find, and call it foraging. The wolves as well, so why not us? No one robbed you, dog. You just been good and foraged." Who would you hear it from? The reason we hear of the atrocities in the Riverlands is Jaime, Brienne and Arya are all POV characters interacting with the smallfolk in the Riverlands who tell the POV/reader of the atrocities in the region, committed by both Lions and Wolves. There is no one in the Westerlands doing the same. What we do know is that Robb is doing what Tywin did to the Riverlands Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands. Robb was doing the same, we just don't have a POV characters witnessing it. The thousands of cattle stoles will have had smallfolk protectors, men and women trying to defend their livelihoods and being killed in the process. if the Northern men had no problem raping smallfolk in the Riverlands it stands to reason they were doing the same to the smallfolk in the West. One of the annoying things about the fandom is how some have assumed there is good and bad and only the bad guys act badly during war, both sides do. The smallfolk are screwed over by all sides.
  3. Bernie Mac

    Why did Stannis marry Selyse Florent?

    2,000 of which is foot. There is a huge difference between a foot soldier and a knight. The Karstarks can field more men, but I'd take the Florent army against the Karstark army in a battle. The Florents are far richer, influential and prestigious than the Karstarks. Why would Robert and Jon have Stannis marry a Karstark, a region they are not worried about rebelling? Did they have women available at the time? Were they willing to make a marriage alliance to the Baratheons at that time? Did Robert and Jon Arryn perhaps think that a Florent option would be better than a Hightower considering Mace was married to a Hightower and could expect their support if he rebelled?
  4. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    That would be true in the earlier phase of the war. Robb's foot was around 18k, they did not have the supplies to last at Moat Cailin so they'd only have one means of feeding themselves in the Riverlands, by taking from the local populace. This is just what happens in war, it is brutal for the smallfolk.
  5. Bernie Mac

    Why did Stannis marry Selyse Florent?

    She is not pretty now. We have no idea what she looked like almost a decade ago when she married Stannis. Plus, appearance is not really that high on list of reasons why nobles marry. 11 years of being married to Stannis might do that to anyone. eh? Davos is not his friend, he's his vassal who seems to worship him. I think we can all get along with people like that. His 'actual care of the realm' is entirely meaningless a decade ago when they married. And Selyse seems to be supportive of her husbands quest to save the realm. If anything this makes them a perfect fit, most wives with common sense may have tried to talk him out of it. At the time of the Wedding she may have just been another granddaughter of the current Lord Florent. Stannis did not marry her to inherit Brightwater Keep, so her place in the succession line is immaterial. Nobody thinks Roslin Frey is the worst marriage for Edmure amongst the Frey women despite the fact that she comes behind many 'sisters', nieces and grand nieces in the succession line. We have no idea who Ryam was married to, it may well be that Selyse had the best pedigree out of all the Florent women who were available to marry. Ryam himself may have been far more noteworthy than his brothers while he lived. Stannis had a Florent Castellan on Dragonstone, a Florent Hand and a Florent Admiral. Stannis points out in the aftermath of the Blackwater that the majority of his men are Florents. The marriage was not arranged so Stannis could have the military power to conquer the throne from Robert's children.
  6. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Fire and Blood. In the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons it is pointed out that the Tully's were less powerful than a number of their vassals such as the Brackens, Blackwoods, Vances and Freys in terms of military strength and land. It is possible that has changed in the last century, but I'm not sure how given the Blackwoods and Brackens may have grown even more powerful in that time given their closeness to the royal family during the reigns of Aegon IV, Aerys I and Aegon V. I'd also imagine that the Freys have grown more powerful as time has gone on rather than weaker.
  7. Bernie Mac

    The Sack of Darry

    Not all of it. "Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls. There are two armies in the Riverlands, both are raping and pillaging from the local populace and the Brotherhood are also doing the same "Be wary, woman. The next men you meet may not be as honest as my lads. The Hound has crossed the Trident with a hundred outlaws, and it's said they're raping every wench they come upon and cutting off their teats for trophies." Tywin's invasion certainly started the war in the Riverlands, but Lions and Wolves alike are doing as they please.
  8. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    He may have even improved on it. They were powerful in Dance of the Dragons and the Dunk & Egg books, but there is no indication that they were the most powerful vassal House in the Riverlands at that point. Walder has ruled for at least half a century, he was Lord when Tywin was 10, he may have done more than maintained the status quo, which itself is not easy, many Houses fall in power regardless of their positon, but actually made them the power they are in the current series. He sanctioned it, but we are told that the organization was down to Roose and Lothar. But he himself has done far, far more than the Red Wedding. Sure, and the author made a decision to give Merret Frey a POV chapter and have him explain to the readers some of the positives about Walder Frey's character. He's multi dimensional, he's not just the perpetrator of the Red Wedding. As Patriarch's go he is one of the best in Westeros going by that chapter. But the reader learns other things about him and your post not only ignores them but contradicts them. I'm just pointing that out. Nowhere in the books does it claim or suggest that he's a hedonist, that seems to be your own head cannon not supported in the books. This is what tends to happen in fiction, protagonists are imagined to have no redeeming features. What did he do to his own daughter? And how does showing remorse change your earlier claim that he is a hedonist? That he does not care about his family? You said a lot of things that are not backed up by the books or actually contradicted them. Few are claiming that Walder was right (anger justified, yes, but he took it too far) in what he did at the Red Wedding, most of us are on the same page about that, but that is one incident in his life, your post was about his entire life. How is that a bad thing for him or his people? I didn't realize how much in favour some are for war in this fandom. It makes him many things, cunning being one of them, but also intelligent. How is it a trick? Hoster did the same in Robert's Rebellion. He ignored his lord and stayed neutral till his price was met, Cregan did the same during the Dance, demanding a payment to pick a side and still only sending a token force while he arrived when the war was over. House Tully during that conflict stayed neutral despite their promise to the late King. Plenty of powerful Lords get away with it. It is not about luck it is about understanding your own positon. He did not. So your claim that he only joins the winning side is kind of contradicted by this. He joined the rebels at a time when no one knew that the Reach and Stormlands would rebel. He was not eager, Cat had to convince him and she did so by using his pride, not his need for material gain. Sure. Why is that bad? He's only following in the footsteps of Hoster, Cregan Stark and many others. Where is your evidence that he is a hedonist? Please provide it. Again, any evidence of him actually being a hedonist. To an extent they do. We get to see the Frey's reaction at Riverrun, Harrnenhal and with Robb to Robb's betrayal, they all feel betrayed. Yup. This is not that uncommon. The Baratheon brothers can barely stand each other, the Tully brothers were not speaking, the Corbray brothers dislike each other, one of the Hunter sons murdered his father and his planning on doing the same to his brother. Merret should be scared of his positon, he is useless and a great-nephew should not be responsible for caring for him. The Starks are not that different. There are other Starks, second cousins to Ned, they do not reside at Wintefell. Robb's has cousins in the Vale, he does not even know their names. Many Houses are going to be like this, Edwyn or Black Walder are not going to feel the need to look after other branches of their family who are useless. Not really. There is ambition and distrust in most families, but the Freys are also pretty loyal to each other, we see the Frey's reaction to the missing Frey's at White Harbor and the death of young Walder at Wintefell. Like many families there is a mix but there is enough evidence that many of the Frey's do have a bond and loyalty to their House. Jesus. This is the middle ages, not a commune in San Francisco. Again these are all assumptions based on nothing but your dislike of the character. Walder was mean to the Starks ipso facto he has been mean his entire life. More head cannon nonsense. Is it really that hard to grasp that Walder, who did an evil thing at the Red Wedding, is still a human being who can care for his family despite a horrific act of revenge he committed at the age of 91? We do. And it is well. lol come on, not he does not. He is blunt, he is not humiliating them. Again, this is the middle ages. How is that 'quite probable'? What evidence from the books make that quite probable? How does that benefit Walder? There are plenty of hacky writers who do books like this, characters are either black or white, GRRM has more nuance than that. You claimed Walder was a hedonist, I was just pointing out that nothing in the books suggests this, no description from othe characters, no examples from the Twins or how Walder and the Freys present themselves. But that is not the case. We know his Symond's wife had multiple handmaidens. We know how expensive it is to make a son a knight, Lord Sunderland has seven sons and it is bankrupting him with them becoming knights. There is zero evidence that his family are thankful to have food. That is just pure bullshit. A hedonist would ignore these standards and just spend on what pleases him. The fact that Walder does not, he's the only one of Robb's Lords willing to pay the ransoms for his sons and is willing to pay a huge dowry to see his daughter married speaks that his primary concern is not about self gratification. There is much evidence to contradict your claim that he is a hedonist, and none to support it. I don't say so, the books say so. No need to be petulant. What part of that post do you disagree with? I'm happy to discuss it cordially with you, but please don't act like a child and just ignore it because it offers an alternative and logical reason why someone who grew up when hundreds of thousands of people had died in a short period of time may value family. How does he treat the current one? She is? Please back this up. Please share? What can she expect after Walder's death? No, he is saying there will likely be a power struggle and that the more distant and useless members will not be supported in the same way that Walder did. Merret is a drunk, that is all he has done in the last 20 years. So your earlier claim that the Frey's only received food under Walder is again disproved. He probably would not, not unless he started to prove useful. Which is the same of most Houses, few Houses give their members, let alone ancillary members such a free ride that Merret has received these last 20 years. Again, same for any noble in his positon. This is not just limited to Freys. Nobles are expected to contribute to society, Merret does not. Merret's reputation is as the biggest drunk in the Twins. That is through his own doing, since he failed to become a Knight he was happy to give into gluttony and excess and it is only now, with the death of Stevron, the soon to be death of his father, that he is worrying about the consequences of a life wasted and is trying o show Ryman and his sons that he is not a complete waste. How does a figure of speech show that he does not care whether they live or die? lol he's not being literal? He is showing how many sons he has, he is not literally asking to have such a competition. Cat has came into his home and threatened him with the army outside, he is commenting on the lack of respect he gets from the likes of the Starks, Tullys and Lannisters and shows pride in the size of his family, but he is not trying to sacrifice them. Is that really what your take away from that chapter was? How is she sacrificed? She marries Edmure. She does not get to be Lady of Riverrun, but she is not being sacrificed.
  9. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    He's likely not the smartest, but he's certainly smart. Not Maester smart, but certainly in Lordship terms. The only time the word intelligent is used in the entire book series is in regard to the ancient Walder https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=intelligent Walder has been in charge for House Frey for decades and either they have grown to become the most powerful House in that time or he has maintained that position, which is no easy feat, and has done so without royal favour or support from the Lord of the Riverlands. As for organizing a bloodbath, we know that it was Roose and Lothar who organized that. Furthermore Walder is ancient by their standards. He's 92 and he's only ever committed one 'bloodbath'. Had he died a few months earlier he'd have gone 91 years without ever committing a bloodbath, it seems odd that this should define his character and his more than half a century of rule. If anything the defining part of his rule is the fact that he has always been cautious about going to war. That is not really true. Robert is a hedonist, spending his time drinking and fucking and taking zero responsibility for his actions. Walder is not, quite the opposite, his dedication to family shows this. And when he goes, everything will change, and not for the better. His father was querulous and stubborn, with an iron will and a wasp's tongue, but he did believe in taking care of his own. All of his own, even the ones who had displeased and disappointed him. Even the ones whose names he can't remember. Once he was gone, though . . . When Ser Stevron had been heir, that was one thing. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood That is not the description of someone who is a hedonist. Robert, Tytos and even the small details we know about the Lord of Tarth all make them sound more like hedonists than Walder, even unmarried Edmure who spends his time in brothels and friends falls more into this category. Walder Frey is a Lord in the middle ages of a population of hundreds of thousands. he does not need to marry to have sex. He does not need to care for his bastards, he choses to do so. The TV show is obviously not book cannon but GRRM clearly was closely involved in the first season and the Frey's looked more like stereotypical Puritans than hedonists. Even in the books we know of their wealth through the appendix, from Cat, from other characters and even from the Dunk and Egg series but in the Twins there is not signs of ostentatious spending, none of the Frey's, like Renly, Mace, or the Tywin and Jaime are clothed in particularly notable clothing (either expensive or cheap) and the only time Walder throws around cash is in dowries for his daughters, to pay the ransoms of his captured sons at Harrenhal and later with the BWB or to bribe the Household of White Harbour. This is not the spending of a hedonist. There are actual more plausible reasons why Walder has had so many wives and children He's ancient, no other Lord in the series is his age. His age and health is astounding, there are many cases of much younger Lords taking wives, maybe had some lived to Walder's age the likes of Hightower would have as many children as Walder does He was born in the era of the Great Spring Sickness and the draughts in the South, events that saw large amounts of the population dead. He lived in an era where Aegon the unlikely became King despite being 17th in line at one point. Beron Stark was the Lord of Winterfell while Walder was a child, he died young but still had 8 kids, many of whom also died young. Had Beron and his children were as healthy and long lived as Walder and his offspring were House Stark would be similarly as large. I'm sorry, I just don't see how Walder's a hedonist. Come on, that is wrong. Merret, who has been useless since a teenager since his injury, directly contradicts this. Merret worries about himself because Walder's heirs, Stevron's branch, do not share Walder and Stevron's ideals about family. Of the captured nobles from the battle of Green Fork only Walder pays ransoms to release his family, both legitimate and bastard sons. His anger at the Twins about Robb offering an apology for a dead grandson also show how he's pissed at his family losses. Yes he's old and blunt, but he clearly does care about his family. It seems an all too lazy stereotype that antagonists don't have any feelings for their family and only seen them as pawns, Merret's POV (himself one of the most useless Freys) contradicts this about Walder.
  10. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    But half the kingdom of the North has not revolted. Stannis has a couple of thousand Northmen in his army, less than the Northern army Roose took home with him. We are talking a very, very small part of the population of the North revolting, to call it en masse is just wrong. I get that its a bitch to be arguing semantics but the North is not rebelling en masse. Well I'm only commenting on what we've actually seen in the books as of the sample chapters of TWOW. You are speculating on something that may or may not happen, but I can only go on what has actually happened. You are arguing your headcannon of what will happen, I'm arguing the text.
  11. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    Exactly, they are split. They can't be revolting en masse when the North is hugely fractured. Many are, many are not. The Boltons have a fair amount of support, there is also a small part of the North who have done nothing during all this. To characterize the North as revolting en masse against the Iron Throne is disingenuous. First of all its not half the kingdom, there is around 5-6k on each side at Winterfell. You'll find most peasants in the North, like any other region, could not give two shits to who they pay their taxes to, they just want an end to the war.
  12. Bernie Mac

    Is Walder Frey the smartest man in Westeros?

    Hardly. He did not inherit his crown, his army crowned him (making him more of a Warlord) He did not pass on his crown, Robb's been dead for a year in the books, the vast majority of his vassals have moved on and sworn oaths to new kings. He was not recognized as a King by any foreign power He did not set foot in the North while he was King of it, another King controlled 'his' capital for much of Robb's short reign He had no currency or government. During his 'reign' he was one of four kings claiming to be King of the North By most terminology Robb would be seen as a pretender rather than an actual King. He fails most Kingly criteria. His own brother even refers to him as such. "They north rode with Robb, bled with him, died for him. They have supped on grief and death, and now you come to offer them another serving. Do you blame them if they hang back? Forgive me, Your Grace, but some will look at you and see only another doomed pretender." He was no successful in his bid to win his throne, he could not get the Iron Throne to recognize his legitimacy, nor any other sovereign nation nor even any other pretender or warlord. By his army, not his Vassals. The majority of his lords did not get a say in it, his army crowned him and most went along with the army. That is not a King, that is a Warlord calling himself a King. Many warlords do actually become legitimate Kings who pass on their crowns to their heirs, Robb was not one of them, Robb was a pretender fighting, along with four others, for the North. Yes it is true. Do you not understand they 'mostly did not attend'. Most of Riverland nobles did not attend, Cat points this out. You seem to be confused or just looking for an argument (quelle surprise) but at no point did I say no Riverand nobles attended, I said few did. Well actually I quoted Cat on this Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north Is Cat lying? Are you better informed that one of the actual characters in the book? By all means quote it. Don't rely on your own headcannon to win a discussion. Use actual evidence from the books to back up your claim. First of all how many do you think is large as lets not waste time on semantics. State how many Riverland soldiers died at the Red Wedding and then try to back it up and prove Cat to be lying. Hardly. This is a hugely hyperbolic statement. The North is clearly split, characterizing them as revolting en masse is either you being deliberately disingenuous or not understanding the words you are using.
  13. I think you are clearly mistaking the fandom's view of Robb Stark to how he is viewed in the North in AFFC and ADWD. He is not some myth, he is a pretender who gambled to heavily and lost. "They north rode with Robb, bled with him, died for him. They have supped on grief and death, and now you come to offer them another serving. Do you blame them if they hang back? Forgive me, Your Grace, but some will look at you and see only another doomed pretender." - Jon Snow Apart from one young girl bringing up Robb we don't hear much in the way of mythologizing Robb in AFFC and ADWD, especially as he died as a result of the 3,500 Northmen with Roose. Half his own army was against him at the Red Wedding. GRRM has set up the Bolton's demise, Ramsay is a psychopath and the longer he lives the more likely the Dustin/Ryswell faction will switch as they will never allow him to rule them. Quite a few of those battles were won due to the larger army.
  14. How would he? Renly is playing the role of cupid, that is it. If Robert decides to set aside his wife and marry another that is on Robert. Why would the North and Stormlands be against Renly for the King doing as a King pleases? And how would the Stormlands be against Renly? Most of the Lords supported him usurping the throne.
  15. Sounds like he (and Stannis) considered it his plan "We both know your wedding was a mummer's farce. A year ago you were scheming to make the girl one of Robert's whores." "A year ago I was scheming to make the girl Robert's queen," Renly said, "but what does it matter? And Varys spy network backs this plan up The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. Yeah, not according to the books we have. If anything she seems to have been one of the perpetrators behind murdering Joffrey, which delays a Tyrell sitting on the Iron Throne. You are. Or are you satisfied with the quotes from Renly about his plan and Olenna about not wanting to support Renly? Why would Olenna need to lie to Sansa when in the same conversation Sansa is being told how much Renly was liked by Mace, Margaery and Loras. What exactly does Olenna have to gain from that? What does GRRM? It seems an entirely meaningless lie to make with no payoff. She influences his decision, she does not order him around. Lady Olenna had no plan, she did not want the Tyrells mixed up in it. We know that past experience has not exactly made her enamoured with royalty given her failed betrothal to Daeron. He's not in charge in name only, he's in charge. That is just a fact. But that is false. We know for a fact that is false as we know that she did not want her House to rebel and support a Usurper. That is canon. What does she have to gain from bringing that up in the first place to Sansa. Not sure how this applies here. Does Tarly think Lady Olenna is in charge of House Tyrell? Rowan? Redwyne? Any of his vassals? Does Tywin, Tyrion or Varys come to this conclusion? Why does Tywin not deal directly with Olenna like he does in the show, where she actually is in command. Why does she not stick around after the Wedding? The Olenna and Mace from the show are not the same as their counterparts in the book. Not that we know of. It could well be that she gave him a different viewpoint, one he found to make more sense, pointing out how unsuitable Cersei was as a bride considering her age. That is not backed up by the books. It contradicts what we learn in the books. Again, this is not a conversation about his intelligence, its about him being in command. Plenty of idiots are in charge, plenty of idiots are competent leaders due to listening to their more intelligent councillors. Mace is a competent leader. Certainly in comparison to many of his peers. Exactly, so why are you so concerned with it? Yes. They can only have Willas marry who they want if they convince Mace it is the right thing to do. Sansa is not a hard sell. Nor is convincing him that the 30something Cersei might not be the best match for his heir.
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