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Bernie Mac

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  1. Sure, not actually clear what your point is here? There is no food, no fresh water at Moat Cailin, they can not live off the land in either winter or summetime. If Stannis wants to garrison (which, lets be clear, there is zero suggestion in the books that he does) then he needs to man and stock it for as long as he is in the North. He's not got the surplus stores and manpower to do this and given that the Ironborn and Stannis himself sailed into the North the defense of Moat Cailin seems to be a luxury he can afford to live without during winter Those men are not only useless to him when defending the Wall but should the royal fleet sail to the wall dropping off an army to attack Stannis the men at Moat Cailin are going to be too far away to respond. Because he can't easily send a garrison there. I don't know how anyone reading the Stannis chapters in ADWD and come to a conclusion that it would be 'easy'. ADWD makes it more than clear that the weather, distance, lack of men, lack of food, lack of horses are all major obstacles for Stannis. So sending a significant portion of his men off is just dumb, not when there is no pressing need. Why not just send 5 or 10? 100 is not enough, not nearly enough. Under Victarion the Ironborn were in their thousands, 400 is going to be a minimum amount, and likely not enough, but then you also wanted to send scouts and messengers to all the other kingdoms which is another 100 (and that is being conservative, we are talking about a continent here). Around 500 men and the supplies needed to feed them for at least a year is not something Stannis has, not when he will want to leave Winterfell with a Lord and garrison loyal to him and still need supplies to get back to the Wall and enough men to defend the wall.
  2. op is asking if he will be remembered. That is what I was replying to. And no, Robb has not become more famous than his father. All his siblings had pet direwolves. Robb has the Red Wedding, Sansa has the purple wedding, historically the Purple will carry more weight. Well Joff was involved in the battle of blackwater, depends how history wants to spin it while Balon has commanded battles. There is nothing noteworthy about leaders commanding battles, the vast majority did so. It is not like we are talking Robert levels of participation either but Robb safely protected by his many bodyguards. It is not something unique to Robb so I find it hard to see why him being on the battle field will single him out amongst the many other Stark rulers who will all have done the same. Yeah, you are over exaggerating here. Riverlands: Throughout the Arya, Brienne and Jaime chapters in the Riverlands one thing is abundantly clear, the populace are sick of both Lions and Wolves. Robb may have saved the Tully nobility but instead of remaining in the Riverlands to kick out the Lannisters he instead went West leaving his foot to join in the Lannisters in pillaging, plundering and even raping from the smallfolk. This is one of the worst periods in Riverland history, they are not going to be fondly thinking of any of the leaders. It will be Robert who they will write songs for as his rule will be utopia in comparison. The North: is fractured. Given Winterfell was poorly defended and destroyed under his rule it is hard to think he will be fondly remembered, the Stark who brings peace will be glorified but under Robb the North was a shit show. Same goes for Hornwood, the people on the coast who were attacked and pillaged by the Ironborn. The people in the Bolton lands are not going to be singing songs for him nor will the people in the Karstark lands. If remembered he is going to be a divisive character in northern folklore, the North, like the Riverlands, is about to be hit hard and Robb putting revenge and the game of thrones above prepping for winter has left the North badly exposed. lol you really think Robb is going to be more famous than Tywin? He has been a major player in the realm for forty years, his 20 years as Hand or 30 as Warden are going to trump Robb's very brief time as a pretender/king of the North. Stannis is already more important to history than Robb, by some margin. Sure, if you like Henry IV and V then their contrasting methods of dealing with the Welsh is pretty fascinating, if you are looking for bigger picture he is loosely tied to the Tudors and the Welsh struggle is an indirect cause of the war of the roses as Nobles were granted more powers to secure their welsh holdings allowing them to challenge central authority.
  3. How did Stannis and his army get into the North? How did the Ironborn? It is winter, no royal army is going to be travelling by land to get into the North. Kings Landing to the Wall is over 2,500 miles, no Southern army is making that journey in the middle of winter, they would decimate their army. They'd be making it easier for Stannis to win the throne, not harder. at least 400 men, plus food and fresh water to supply them for a few years. Stannis neither has the men or supplies to spare, not for something that is logically not going to happen. The author has just created a northern navy at White Harbor, Stannis is not returning South by land but by sea (if he does at all).
  4. Nothing has changed, history rarely remembers short term pretenders. No, he likely will not be remembered as a king, nor will Renly for that matter. Both were briefly pretenders who's 'kingdom's' quickly reverted back to the crown. As leader of the North he actually lost quite a few battles. It is strange that in the fandom everyone recognizes that the Whispering Woods, Oxcross and Camps all count as defeats for Tywin yet for some reason the same is not true for Robb and Winterfell and Green Fork. Robb, as the overall commander of the North, lost battles. In fact as treacherous and underhand as it was the red wedding was a battle, a hugely one sided one, but a battle nonetheless. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1284/ GRRM also mentioned that certain battles were much more brutal than others. The battle at the Freys was very bloody, while the battle in front of Winterfel was not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lord Walder raised a hand, and the music stopped, all but one drum. Catelyn heard the crash of distant battle, and closer the wild howling of a wolf. Grey Wind, she remembered too late. "Heh," Lord Walder cackled at Robb, "the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh." -- Cat ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The second tent took fire, and then the third. The screams grew so loud she could hear words through the music. Dark shapes moved in front of the flames, the steel of their armor shining orange from afar. A battle, Arya knew. It's a battle. And the riders . . . She had no more time to watch the tents then. With the river overflowing its banks, the dark swirling waters at the end of the drawbridge reached as high as a horse's belly, but the riders splashed through them all the same, spurred on by the music. For once the same song was coming from both castles. I know this song, Arya realized suddenly. Tom o' Sevens had sung it for them, that rainy night the outlaws had sheltered in the brewhouse with the brothers. And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low? - Arya If history is looking to celebrate an actual Stark who suffered no defeats then Ned is their man.
  5. How is the wife of one Great Lord and the daughter of another not famous? You seem to forget that Cat was involved in the war before her son was, with her capture of Tyrion being one of the actions that instigated the war. On top of that her role in the series may not be over. Given that both Bran and Arya are still alive there is every chance that they, and Rickon, will eclipse Robb's. And you also forget Sansa, betrothed to the king, married off to the king's uncle, possibly involved in the king's death, possibly ends up married to the Lord of the Vale. Renly I will give you but Balon was crowned twice, a feat no other has done the last three centuries, was a key figure in two civil wars. From a historical point of view he is going to be of far more significance. Joffrey was king, he is hands down going to be of more interest to history than a pretender to the North. There would be interest in his birth, who actually is his father, his victory on the Blackwater and more importantly his assassination after he had won, his death involves guest rights and kinslaying. You are confusing a Stark centric pov structure novel with history. Stannis will have lived twice as long as Robb, who will only be considered important for less than a year of his life. Stannis has been involved in three major civil wars, playing pivotal roles in two of them. There are plenty of figures from the series who are going to be of more historical significance than Robb, at least one of his siblings will, certainly his father, debatably his mother and bastard brother, three of the other five kings, Cersei, Tywin, Tyrion, Jaime. Mace, possibly Littlefinger and Varys. Robb will be lucky if history will see him on similar terms to Owain Glyndŵr (who was rebelling for 15 years rather than 1)
  6. He was clueless about the Dreadfort lands until Jon clued him up, had he done what you suggested these scouts would have been able to tell him. To make his way to Winterfell he had to borrow scouts from House Glover, so clearly he did not have his own scouts. There is sending out scouts to where an close by enemy army, that is logical. what you were suggesting is not. Westeros is the size of south america, sending off dozens, perhaps closer to hundreds, thousands of miles away in winter to the Vale, Riverlands, Reach etc. during winter is just crazy. You are suggesting a full time garrison at Moat Cailin, Stannis retaking the rest of the North and now sending out multiple scouting expeditions thousands of miles away for shits and giggles. That is not logical, not when he has so few men. How? The 3,500 men who returned with Roose will magically switch sides? These same men who killed their fellow northmen at the red wedding will be welcomed back by the northmen with Stannis? Whether Stannis takes Winterfell or not, he is not gaining all those men nor does he retain his army. It is naive to think that Srannis will take more casualties from the trip to winterfell than he will in the battle for it. no, it is not. I guarantee it will not happen, that after Winterfell he will not march on Moat Cailin not will he send a force to secure it. Name a charity and name an amount, this is how certain I am.
  7. Right, so possibly 50. Why would you assume that? Podrick is a Payne, he does not bring a retinue with him from his house every where he goes. Why would he? He's travelling with an army, why would he need a strong escort? He's not, he is with a 3,500 army.
  8. How is Cat's quote open for question just because you don't like it? You have to bring something to the table. lol what reasoning? You have came to a conclusion not supported by the text. There are not hundreds of Riverlanders in the 3,500 party. Not even close.
  9. Bernie Mac

    How to Improve the North Economically?

    Did I mention Lordsport in my post? Why would an iron island town, a town half the size of Lord Hewett's Town, need protection from their own? Of course Lordsport does have value in its trade Such riches as the Iron Islands possess lie under the hills of Great Wyk, Harlaw, and Orkmont, where lead, tin, and iron can be found in abundance. These ores are the chief export of the islands. There are many fine metalworkers amongst the ironborn, as might be expected; the forges of Lordsport produce swords, axes, ringmail, and plate second to none. There is reason to make the journey and trading with the Ironborn likely means they are not going to steal the goods they have just sold.
  10. Ned was the ruler for almost two decades, was a high ranking commander in two major civil wars, one of which saw the first Dynasty change of Westeros, became Hand, had his daughter betrothed to a future king who he then tried to coup and his arrest and execution kicked off the war of the five kings. Ned will absolutely be of more historical significance than his son who ruled for less than a year. The only way Robb becomes more important to historians is if the Boltons or another House end up ruling the North. as the Stark who broke 6 thousand years of rule will be hugely important. Robb's not even the most interesting person in his family, let alone the war of the five kings. What battles did Ned ever lose? Or Rickard, or Cregan? I'm going to go out on a limb here and predict that a large amount of rulers never lost a battle, most of them ruling for a darn sight longer than 10 months.
  11. At this point they are all old Houses, with around a thousand years (at least) of intermarriage. It seems highly improbable that there is some Andal First man divide.
  12. Why did he not do this when he secured the wall? or Deepwood motte? or even when he secured the camp outside winterfell? He's yet to do this task you assume is common sense, nor did he do it when he took Storm's End. Has he got the men and horses to spare to send them on 4-8 month scouting journeys?
  13. I guess I will post the same quote for 3rd time in two days as people seem incapable of accepting it. Aside from her brother Edmure's modest retinue of friends, the lords of the Trident had remained to hold the riverlands while the king retook the north. Marq Piper, the heir of Pinkmaiden, is there because he is a close friend of friend of Edmure's not because every Riverlord has attended. "Even Lannisters are not so blind stupid as that," Ser Marq Piper snapped. He was a swaggering bantam rooster of a youth, too young and too hot-blooded for Ned's taste, though a fast friend of Catelyn's brother, Edmure Tully. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Edmure had not returned after his first visit, preferring to spend his days with Marq Piper and Patrek Mallister, listening to Rymund the Rhymer's verses about the battle at the Stone Mill. Robb is not Edmure, though. Robb will see me. I kind of doubt every Riverland House is as well represented in the host as House Piper
  14. Bernie Mac

    How to Improve the North Economically?

    Sure, but clearly it is pretty hard as we would have seen many lords, lords with actual navies attempting such a get rich scheme.
  15. Bernie Mac

    How to Improve the North Economically?

    I'm well aware of that, did you not read the post I was replying to? OP was talking about a major road network akin to the kings road connecting the major locations of the North. This has not even been attempted in the smaller, densely populated cash rich Westerlands or Reach. For it to happen first in the North is a pipe dream, not until their society advances. From what we know the rulers of the North were not willing to spend the same on defences on the west coast than they were on the east, they simply let people move away or defend themselves. Now logically there must be sensible reasons why many different rulers of the North all came to the same conclusion that the west coast was not worth the same effort as the east. Cost effectiveness seems a plausible reason, though obviously not canon. Both Lannisport and Oldtown have their own navies and trade that would entice merchants. More importantly merchants don't have to pass Iron Islands to get there. It is likely not worth the risk, not when timber is a pretty common resource on Planatos. Well yeah, Manderly is hell bent on revenge. He likely no longer cares about balancing the books, being willing to break into any cash reserves he has.
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