Jump to content

Bernie Mac

Members
  • Content count

    2,176
  • Joined

  • Last visited

2 Followers

About Bernie Mac

  • Rank
    Council Member

Recent Profile Visitors

3,998 profile views
  1. Bernie Mac

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    It actually is. The first time we see father and son together Tyrion is refusing to do what Tywin asked "If you have a mind to make yourself of use, I will give you a command," his father said. "Marq Piper and Karyl Vance are loose in our rear, raiding our lands across the Red Fork." Tyrion made a tsking sound. "The gall of them, fighting back. Ordinarily I'd be glad to punish such rudeness, Father, but the truth is, I have pressing business elsewhere." Tyrion has got no problem with disobeying his father. He'd never have brought Shae, someone he had just met, if that was the case. So now that I have provided evidence that he has will this altered your opinion? When Kevan and Tywin sell him on the prospect. Marrying the heiress of the North excites Tyrion. Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. He is happy to say no. Unlike Cersei, Tywin has to convince Tyrion to say yes. Yeah, he does. Not only does he stand up to him, but he takes the piss out of him infront of other council members. Tyrion smiled crookedly. "Take heart, Father. At least Rhaegar Targaryen is still dead." "I had hoped you might have more to offer us than japes, Tyrion," Lord Tywin Lannister said. Tyrion has not shown any indication that he fears his father. He even seems pissed when Tywin is back as Hand. "That's a handsome chain," Tyrion said. Though it looked better on me. Lord Tywin ignored the sally. "You had best be seated. Is it wise for you to be out of your sickbed?" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Why are you here in the city, Father?" he asked. "Shouldn't you be off fighting Lord Stannis or Robb Stark or someone?" And the sooner the better. Tyrion talks to Tywin in a way that no one, not his brother or other children do. He has just met Shae. How can you argue he is scared of his father when Tywin makes a pretty reasonable request after making him Hand and he still ignores it. This does not suggest fear. So clearly he does not think the consequences are that high. Why not put yourself in Tyrion's shoes again. Would you bring a whore to Kings Landing, one you had just met, when Tywin specifically told you not to? edit: sorry if my tone sounds combative. It is not intentional. I edited a few things as rereading some of what I wrote came off blunter than I intended.
  2. Bernie Mac

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    Can you provide them. Tyrion is not just mad, he hates him, wants him dead, despite the fact that Jaime saved his life Tyrion pictured how his sister's head might look up there, with tar in her golden hair and flies buzzing in and out of her mouth. Yes, and Jaime must have the spike beside her, he decided. No one must ever come between my brother and my sister. I'm not sure if you are genuninly confused or just downplaying Tyrion's anger. If you are arguing, against Tyrion's own words, that Tyrion raped her out of fear don't you think it would be a good idea to be able to prove it? Sure. If GRRM decided to change what he has wrote on the event then I'm perfectly okay with that. But right now Tyrion's events of what happened is that he willingly raped her due to being aroused and thinking she was a whore. Not once in the four times he talks about it does he bring up fear. I'm only going on the text. eh? He says it was in his power to stop it. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid. He does not suggest he did what he did out of fear. He thinks, rightly or wrongly, that he had choice in the matter. In the quotes about him raping her because she was a whore and because he was aroused. Neither of those are to do with fear. We also don't know that he laughed at her, slapped her and told her how she deserved it. If someone claimed that happened I'd disagree with that as well as it is not suggested in the text. I am only going by the text. I am not inventing motive like some are. No, you are being hugely charitable. You are not saying he did worse than what was suggested, only better. What does 13 year old Tyrion think he is capable of? Why did he marry her in the first place if he was knew what he was capable of? Why did he set her up in one of Tywin's properties if he knew what Tywin was capable of? Such as what? You realize what you are doing right? You are creating one fanfiction to support another fanfiction. edit: Sorry, that was a rude way of putting it. My intention is not to offend. Let me know if this does and I will try and reword what I have said. No one has claimed there would be no consequences. Egg, one of the nicest guys we have met, had consequences for his heir when he married a peasant. There being consequences does not mean something dire or that Tyrion was fearful of them. Clearly he was not. What had Tywin done to Tyrion before that? What had he done to him after that?
  3. Bernie Mac

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    No, it is not. We both know that. No, it has not. I've used the books. I've quoted from the books. It does? Then quote it. Does it? Then quote it? We know that Tyrion has no issue with telling his father no. He is one of the few people able to do that.
  4. Bernie Mac

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    Children of 13 have raped people. Are you seriously under the impression that they can't? Before we go further I need to know if you don't think 13-year-olds can rape or you are just starting off with a strawman argument? Tyrion's actually brought it up multiple times, I've quoted them in my previous post. Read them, refresh your memory. Do you know why this is a bullshit argument from you? Because you sit in judgement of plenty of characters who we hear of there actions but don't see them. We don't see Randyll Tarly threaten Sam. Yes, repeatedly. He does not have to. The teenage whore is not going to know any different, they are going to see a soldier come and demand her services. Their society is fucked up. He sends his armed guards to bring him whores. He has sex with them, like he had sex with Tysha, like he has sex with the slave at illyrio's and like he had sex with the Targaryen looking whore with scars on her back where she had been whipped by her pimps. In our society there is still slavery in the western world in brothels throughout the US and Europe. Being a whore in the middle ages is going to have an even higher percentage of women forced into it. Tyrion fucked Tysha, someone he thought he loved because he was told she was a whore, he is hardly going to be asking if these other women are willing. He knows some of them were not as they could not hide their disgust. eh? You clearly are missing my point.
  5. Bernie Mac

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    No, we know his father would not have approved of him marrying a peasant he had just met. There is zero indication he was scared of his safety over this. Do you think he was? Can you quote from Tyrion were this is suggested?
  6. Bernie Mac

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    Tyrion brings it up multiple times, fear is never used as an issue. In fact his hatred of Jaime makes zero sense if Tyrion participated out of fear. Jaime convincing him would be inconsequential, yet Tyrion wants him dead for what he did. Did he or did he not risk his father's wrath by marrying her in the first place? Yeah, we kind of do. He is pretty clear on why he did what he did. It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ He thought of Tysha and wondered where whores go. Why not Volantis? Perhaps I'll find her there. A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid. No, but based on what we are told he did not do so out of fear. I am only going by the text on this one. There is zero indication that he yelled and screamed and kicked. Can you quote where you think this is suggested?
  7. Bernie Mac

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    That makes zero sense. If he was so fearful he'd not have married her in the first place. The picture you are painting is not what is described in the books.
  8. Bernie Mac

    Tysha - who is to blame?

    He's to blame for his own actions, he's not to blame what Tywin did to her. He is not forced to rape her, is not threatened to rape her and does not fear of the consequences of what would happen to him if he did not rape her. We know that he rapes her because he is told she is a whore and he was aroused. In their society whores are to have sex with. Tyrion, the son of the most powerful lord in the realm, sends armed men like Bronn and Jyck, to acquire whores for him. "I would prefer one who is reasonably young, with as pretty a face as you can find," he had said. "If she has washed sometime this year, I shall be glad. If she hasn't, wash her. Be certain that you tell her who I am, and warn her of what I am." Jyck had not always troubled to do that. There was a look the girls got in their eyes sometimes when they first beheld the lordling they'd been hired to pleasure … a look that Tyrion Lannister did not ever care to see again. They are not all going to be willing like Shae, some of them will be too scared to say no to Tyrion, many will be in a similar position Tysha was in and Tyrion, like he did with Tysha, will have sex with them because in their society (in the Middle Ages you could not actually rape a whore in most cultures) it was the acceptable thing to do. Tyrion's behaviour in ADWD is likely not uncommon to how he lived most of his life. Having sex with the slave at Illyrio's or the prostitute with the dead eyes later on are likely not the first times since Tysha he has had sex with a woman scared of the consequences of saying no. The whore did not respond. "Do you know where whores go?" She did not answer that one either. Her back was crisscrossed by ridges of scar tissue. This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me. What Tywin did to Tysha remains reprehensible, but Tyrion still raped her as he has likely raped many women in his time. He is not the only noble who will have done this. Tyrion being ignorant of it being rape, does not make it any less rape. Tyrion thinks he could have. We will never know because he did not bother to try. Not out of fear, but out of arousal and simply being told that she was a whore.
  9. Bernie Mac

    Could Tywin has killed his father tytos

    That is not true. Murdering someone is much worse than what Tywin did to Tyrion. Rightly or wrongly, from Tywin's elitist perspective, he did not think the feelings Tyrion had for the homeless peasant he had only recently met were genuine. You can argue what he did to Tysha was as just as bad as 'murdering his father', but not what he did to Tyrion. Then we are on the exact same page. It is unlikely that Tywin killed his father. No one has argued it is impossible, this is a fantasy novel after all. I never claimed it did. I have not told anyone of what they can and can't say, I've just challenged the idea that it was likely. Do you not think the history of the Westerlands would have covered it? Or even Kevan? Tytos was certainly generous, but there is nothing to indicate his generosity was endangering the Lannister's wealth.
  10. Bernie Mac

    Could Tywin has killed his father tytos

    Sure, that could have happened. Anything could have happened. But I just don't buy that it did. Tytos' misrule seems to have came to an end after the end of the Reyne Tarbeck wars (at least as far as we know). Tywin was likely still embarrassed/disappointed about his father, just like he has been embarrassed/disappointed about Tyrion's exploits for almost a decade. But I don't think either crime was enough for Tywin to murder his father, just like it was not enough to murder his son. Tywin is obviously capable of evil acts, just like many powerful lords have been throughout history. It is why he's such a believable character. Him murdering family members due to embarrassment turns him into a pantomime villain. This is one of my pet peeves in the fandom. People use this kind of argument all the time to make their point in different scenarios. Tywin may well want it to stop. That does not mean he is going to resort to murder for it. Being against something does not make murder a likely response. Even to someone like Tywin. Tyrion lasting as long as he did, and only being brought down when he was seen by the entire court of having killed the King should be evidence enough that Tywin can put up with being embarrassed without the need to murder or even punish Tytos grew fat in later life and died of a heart attack. He was almost 50, he would have outlived the majority of the Targaryen kings. Only Aegon I, Jaehaerys I and Egg (just about) lived a decade more than him. Hoster Tully is pushing 60 and on his death bed. Men who live to the age of the Freys or Jon Arryn are a rarity in Westeros. Tytos was very much in the Henry VIII mould, a glutton who died long before his time as he could satisfy his vices when he wanted. He was hardly giving away huge sums. He didn't. We know who directly organized it. Lord Walder had ordered the slaughter of the Starks at Roslin's wedding, but it had been Lame Lothar who had plotted it out with Roose Bolton Tywin rewarded it and knew of it beforehand, but there is zero indication that he organized it. I think GRRM has clarified the reason why Walder did what he did. What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him... Pretty clear that it was vengeance Walder was after. Yes. Absolutely. How does relate to him murdering his father?
  11. It is not about stupidity, it is about ignorance. The elite can be just as ignorant about people as anyone. From Tywin's perspective she was a whore according to the author.
  12. GRRM literally says in the quote I provided that Tywin thinks of her as a whore. Is he wrong about his own fictional characters? GRRM: He’s furious at Lord Tywin because he found out the truth about his first wife and what happened to her, and Tywin keeps calling her a whore — which she is by Lord Tywin’s logic.
  13. From Tyrion. It reminded him of how Tysha would riffle his hair during the false spring of their marriage, before he helped his father's guardsmen rape her. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ He thought of Tysha and wondered where whores go. Why not Volantis? Perhaps I'll find her there. A man should cling to hope. He wondered what he would say to her. I am sorry that I let them rape you, love. I thought you were a whore. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "So you will remember her as she truly is," he said, and I should have defied him, but my cock betrayed me, and I did as I was bid. Tyrion believes he could have said no. He even thinks it is within his power to have stopped it. He did not due believing she was a whore and being aroused, not out of fear of what his father might do to him. Personally I think the rape may well have happened between Tysha and the Guardsmen even if Tyrion tried to stop it, but he thinks he could have stopped it and given he never tried we will never know. As for Tyrion's involvement he thinks he could have defied his father, he chose not to and the choice, according to Tyrion, is not down to fear of his father. Tywin's actions are still reprehensible. But Tyrion is no victim in this, he chooses to rape someone he claimed to have loved because he was aroused. He did not try to stop it, makes no mention of being 1) physically made to do it 2) threatened to do it 3) being scared of the unsaid consequences of not doing it. One of the three would excuse him, but none, as of yet, are applicable to Tyrion. Tyrion is a loved character so of course people want to shift the blame, but the people who do are missing the point. This society was rotten to the core, the nobility looked at the peasants as talkative livestock. GRRM: And that’s another of my pet peeves about fantasies. The bad authors adopt the class structures of the Middle Ages; where you had the royalty and then you had the nobility and you had the merchant class and then you have the peasants and so forth. But they don’t’ seem to realize what it actually meant. They have scenes where the spunky peasant girl tells off the pretty prince. The pretty prince would have raped the spunky peasant girl. Time and time again to many in the fandom try to paint only the antagonists as doing bad deeds, while the truth was they were all pretty much awful. When Tyrion rapes the two women in ADWD we are not supposed to think these are brand new events in Tyrion's life, we are supposed to realize that Tyrion has probably, ignorantly so, raped multiple women in his lifetime without truly realizing it. Clearly not. If that was the case he'd never have married Tysha in the first place. Yes, Tywin was in control of the guardsmen raping Tysha. Tyrion had a say in his own actions. He went along with it, and not out of fear but simply because he was told she was a whore and beleived it. Yup. At no point have I said otherwise. It is very clearly an evil act ordered by Tywin on an innocent. Either you are misreading what I have written or you are trying to create some type of strawman argument here. She is nobility. There is no lesson to be learnt here. He does not want it to be known that he was responsible for ordering the death of the children. Tyrion's was a lesson, there is no lesson here. Yeah, I fully agree. He is more than capable of ordering someone raped. Again, I don't know if you have misread what I have actually wrote or purposefully created strawman arguments. But Tywin evil actions tend to be for a purpose. There is no purpose for this, it (the murdered of the children) is meant to be a covert action which if done right will be blamed on others. Westeros is a misogynistic society, Tywin is not going know that Elia was likely the last person consulted about her and Rhaegar's marriage. Seems unlikely he is going to want to seek vengeance on her for it.
  14. Bernie Mac

    Could Tywin has killed his father tytos

    Why would he need to? He was the Hand of the King and likely the defacto ruler of the Westerlands even while his father lived. The issues with Tytos was that he was an ineffective leader who left it to others, his more powerful and respected son taking the reins is not going to be an issue. Perhaps if Tytos was a different kind of man, an actual obstacle in Tywin's way you could make a case, but he was not, he was what Sam would have became had he stayed at Horn Hill.
  15. No one forced Tyrion, by his own admission he could have said no. He chose to participate because of the how fucked up their society is. It is possible Tyrion has raped many of the women he has paid to sleep with. Given he's the son of the most powerful Lord in the realm and he sends out armed men to bring him whores it is possible that many women, like Tysha or the women he sleeps with in ADWD, have no choice in the matter. Tyrion's actions in ADWD are more shocking as a result, as past examples he could claim he was ignorant that such women like Tysha existed. But the revelation that Tysha was not a whore should have opened his eyes to the sex slave at Illyrio's and the whore with the whipped back he slept with. Not quite. There is an interview from GRRM with regard to this where he points out that from Tywin's perspective Tysha was a whore, as he thought no one could love his son. It is not really deception from Tywin's POV. GRRM: He’s furious at Lord Tywin because he found out the truth about his first wife and what happened to her, and Tywin keeps calling her a whore — which she is by Lord Tywin’s logic. Lord Tywin is convinced that since he doesn’t love Tyrion, then no one can possibly love Tyrion. So it’s obviously some lower-class girl who’s just trying to get the dwarf into bed because he was a Lannister, so she could become a lady and have money and live in a castle and all that. That does not make him a monster. His younger brother is almost of the same build and ability and I don't think he would have done what the Mountain did in that scanrio. We have no idea when the sister and father died. It may have been before he was knighted, it may have been after. Would Rhaegar have knighted someone who was thought to have murdered his father and sister? He did. He was ordered to do that. There are all kinds of murderers. Some who do what they are told and no more, some who murder for sport. I don't think it is inconceivable that Tywin did not think it a possibility, or even that the sickly Elia would be there. This is what nannies and other ladies in waiting are for.
×