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Bernie Mac

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  1. No, the fight was fought inside. Of course there was. There was several thousand loyalist soldiers in the City, they were not about to allow Tywin to march to the Red Keep and take their King prisoner. That is a pretty poor understanding of both how feudal sackings took place, as well as the George's own understanding a sack. By all means quote one passage that suggests that Tywin encouraged it. He did not, nor did he discourage it. If you can find a source for that, I'd be hugely grateful. Don't need to imagine, I believe we are told that is exactly what happened. Ser Jaime Lannister was meanwhile left in charge of the Red Keep's defenses. The walls were manned by knights and watchmen, awaiting the enemy. When the first army that arrived flew the lion of Casterly Rock, with Lord Tywin at its head, King Aerys anxiously ordered the gates to be opened, thinking that at last his old friend and former Hand had come to his rescue, as he had done at the Defiance of Duskendale. But Lord Tywin had not come to save the Mad King. This time, Lord Tywin's cause was that of the realm's, and he was determined to bring an end to the reign that madness had brought low. Once within the walls of the city, his soldiers assaulted the defenders of King's Landing, and blood ran red in the streets. A handpicked cadre of men raced to the Red Keep to storm its walls and seek out King Aerys, so that justice might be done. Cities and large populated settlements are sacked because of chaos, not because of some moustache twirling villain orders his men to do so. With no order what tends to happen is that a mixture of soldiers on both sides as well as the local populace, from common criminals to panicking civilians, cities become incredibly unstable and people take advantage of the lack of law. We see a pretty extreme case of this on Dany's conquest of East Essos When the last resistance had been crushed by the Unsullied and the sack had run its course, Dany entered her city. The dead were heaped so high before the broken gate that it took her freedmen near an hour to make a path for her silver. Joso's Cock and the great wooden turtle that had protected it, covered with horsehides, lay abandoned within. She rode past burned buildings and broken windows, through brick streets where the gutters were choked with the stiff and swollen dead. Cheering slaves lifted bloodstained hands to her as she went by, and called her "Mother." It is pretty clear that what happened in Meereen is not completely on Dany's forces, but on the local populace. And GRRM, via Dany, explains to the reader a simple truth She was pleased. Meereen had been sacked savagely, as new-fallen cities always were, but Dany was determined that should end now that the city was hers. She had decreed that murderers were to be hanged, that looters were to lose a hand, and rapists their manhood. Eight killers swung from the walls, and the Unsullied had filled a bushel basket with bloody hands and soft red worms, but Meereen was calm again. But for how long? In fact the only person in the books who thinks of a Sacking like some of the arguments in this thread do, is the poor naive Sansa. I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her. "Won't your guards protect us?" "And who will protect us from my guards?" The queen gave Osfryd a sideways look. "Loyal sellswords are rare as virgin whores. If the battle is lost, my guards will trip on those crimson cloaks in their haste to rip them off. They'll steal what they can and flee, along with the serving men, washerwomen, and stableboys, all out to save their own worthless hides. Do you have any notion what happens when a city is sacked, Sansa? No, you wouldn't, would you? All you know of life you learned from singers, and there's such a dearth of good sacking songs." "True knights would never harm women and children." The words rang hollow in her ears even as she said them. ----------------------------------------------------------------- "And if the castle should fall?" "You'd like that, wouldn't you?" Cersei did not wait for a denial. "If I'm not betrayed by my own guards, I may be able to hold here for a time. Then I can go to the walls and offer to yield to Lord Stannis in person. That will spare us the worst. But if Maegor's Holdfast should fall before Stannis can come up, why then, most of my guests are in for a bit of rape, I'd say. And you should never rule out mutilation, torture, and murder at times like these." Sansa was horrified. "These are women, unarmed, and gently born." Now to be clear, Tywin as the aggressor is the person responsible for the sack and he may have done a better job of keeping order if he was not preoccupied with capturing and killing the King and the royal family, saving his son and an assortment of other deeds such as securing the treasury, the ports, the gates etc. But the idea that taking the city without it being sacked is just wrong. Tywin neither had the technology, time or manpower to do that. Kings Landing would have been sacked regardless. Tywin just beat Robert to it.
  2. Not really. It would have been idiotic to send them away from the Westerland coast during a multi front war with the Ironborn so close. It is also the reason why he does not send for the Lannisport or Kings Watch Cloaks when he is need of reinforcements. GRRM credits his readers with some common sense.
  3. I'm the one who is doing mental gymnastics? You just deleted a post claiming that stealing did not make someone a thief. What was going through your head when you typed that? So there are two things here that you seem unwilling to take into consideration Moral relativism, in their world Tywin is not seen as being extremely brutal. Though he can be, that does not mean his every action is such Jaimie is Tywin's son. He naturally is going to have a more favorable opinion than you do on him, which will mean not assuming the very worst. What Tywin did was abhorrent. So the idea that Jaime should have assumed that was going to happen makes little sense. And? You do realize anyone could think about it if GRRM wanted them to, right? In their world what happened to the mistress is not seen as some awful crime. If you want to argue that it should, then you will have no argument from me, most of the shit that the nobles do in that society are intolerable. I've already provided two. You have provided zero and you are the one making the claims. The onus is on you my friend. I've already made my case and backed it up with quotes from the text. lol no you have not. What is your understanding of the word deflecting because I don't think you are using it right. List all the things you think I have deflected on and I will gladly re-answer them again. I am happy to wait. If you have a better source I'd love to hear it. But you can't just discredit a source because you don't like what they say.
  4. No it does not. Which source claims Tytos gave ownership of Jeyne Marbrand's jewels to his mistress? You are confusing the clothes Tytos lavished on her with Jeyme Marbrand's jewels. Cersei had been a year old when her grandfather died. The first thing her father had done on his ascension was to expel his own father's grasping, lowborn mistress from Casterly Rock. The silks and velvets Lord Tytos had lavished on her and the jewelry she had taken for herself Regarding the jewellery, specifically Jeyne's jewellery, there is no source stating Tytos gave them to her. If there is another source discrediting the claims of Kevan and Cersei then I'm happy to hear it.
  5. The source that says she stole also point blankly states she helped herself to them, not that she was given them. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! As far as we know she stole. Now maybe Tytos would have been okay with it, or maybe they were not even Tytos' to do with as he pleased. The other reason she was punished is the ruling she did. Within a year she was dismissing servants, ordering about his household knights, even speaking for his lordship when he was indisposed. These are actions that Tytos may have approved of if he was present, but it speaks of how she did as she pleased regardless if Tytos was there or not and regardless if Tytos gave her the jewellery or not. The mistress and the Reynes and Tarbecks are two sides of the same coin when it comes to Tytos rule. People who would do as they pleased, without his permission, safe in the knowledge that he would forgive them for doing what they did, regardless of how this weakened House Lannister as an institution.
  6. That is just an ad hom attack. Why not prove you are right and do the ad hom attack. The words are pretty clear. For the fourth time. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! The word I underlined, what does it say?
  7. Yes he did. I've now repeated the quote three times in this discussion Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! Why would you not fact check something like this? Why state something so certainly when you have no idea if its true? It is there in the text. He was teaching Tyrion a lesson. What Tywin did was abhorrent and beyond evil, but it was not aimed at Tysha, a homeless peasant, but his son Tyrion. He wanted to teach him that anyone could have her. That she was worthless, which in their society she tragically was. No he does not. Do you know how we know this? Because we are in Jaime's head. There is zero indication that he was lying to Tyrion when he said he did not know what Tywin would have done to her. You are claiming that he would have known, but the evidence suggests that he did not. eh? She was punished as someone who ruled in the Lannisters name, helped herself to their property, granted favours in their name. Not one person in the series says she was punished too harshly. Yeah, most likely. She was a commoner who ruled in Tytos' name. GRRM; I mean, the class structures in places like this had teeth. They had consequences. And people were brought up from their childhood to know their place and to know that duties of their class and the privileges of their class. It was always a source of friction when someone got outside of that thing. And I tried to reflect that. She did something that was just not accepted in their world and Tywin punished her for it. It was most definitely petty and done to humiliate her, but it was also a warning to all the other commoners who would think about challenging the status quo. We are not told that. Perhaps he would have done if he was asked, but we are told she stole and helped herself to what she wanted. That people came to her for permission. True. But we also do not have a single source from the books that says she did not deserve her punishment. I'm okay with waiting while you try to find one.
  8. That sounds pretty dumb. Tywin gave the order of who to kill. His order was not to 'kill everyone except these people'.
  9. We are told directly that she stole. If you have a source from the books that says otherwise then I am open to hearing it. True. But that is a pretty weird argument, right? People steal from people they love all the time. Children, partners and friends steal from people who love them and would likely willingly give them what they wanted if they asked. But it happens, frequently. I am not sure why this is a complicated issue for some? Sometimes people will help themselves to the property of people who would willingly give it to them if they asked. If my housemate wanted to cook the steaks I have in the fridge and asked I'd be more than fine with it, I'd likely feel very differently if I was not asked and they were gone. What we are told about the mistress is that she did as she pleased, she acted as if she ruled, a station she had no real right to in their society. From the perception of Tywin, Kevan or most people in their very rigid society they would view it as theft. I hate how condescending I end up sounding in these conversations, but how is this logical? Do people not understand that someone can steal without putting on the cartoon mask on and creeping around? According to the books she did. If you can find a source that discredits Kevan's claim then I'm happy to hear it. Nope, that is not what was said. It is said she helped herself to those, not that she was given them. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! The fact that I have to repeat the same quote is pretty annoying. Love to hear the evidence for this. lol so you make up one conclusion not based on any evidence to back up another conclusion. Tywin Derangement Syndrome seems to be a real thing. There are actually legitimate things to hate him for without the need to invent them.
  10. How can it be impossible? How many other women had Tywin had gangraped? Better yet, how many women does Jaime know that Tywin had gangraped at that point? Either you simply don't understand what 'impossible' means or you have trouble separating your own thoughts on Tywin to the thoughts of his own son. Do you not realize that the two of you may have different perceptions of Tywin? It is a harsh and brutal time. That does not mean Jaime should assume Tysha would be ordered to be gangraped. You see that, right? The children were in the line of succession. There is a legitimate reason why they were disposed of. But he did not find out what happened to Tysha till a decade later.
  11. Got a source for that chief? How is it not a good bar? It shows what impresses people in this society. Westeros does not see what happened to the Reynes and Tarbecks as a mark against the Lannisters, they see it as a positive. A Lord who put down vassals who rebelled. No one claimed it was new. What on earth are you talking about now? Yes we are. The constant songs about them to flatter the Lannisters. The Lannisters are not requesting these bards to sing these songs to them again and again. Why would the nine bards all sing about it? None were Lannisters, all were trying to impress them. lol and you think this proves what? Did you read the rest of the passage? It is a negative piece or positive piece about how Tywin dealt with the situation?
  12. That is your perception of him. That may not be the perception of him from his son in the medieval age, a much more brutal and unforgiving age. Try to imagine just for one second, that Jamie may not think of Tywin as you think of him. He did not make Tyrion do that. Tyrion believes he had a choice in the matter and he believes it was his own cock that made him choose. In their society whores are there to be 'raped', it is what Tyrion has done all his life. That is why he wants Jaime dead. She was not a whore and his brother and father told him she was. She was stealing according to Kevan Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother's jewels! If you have a source that proves Kevan was wrong or lying then I'd love to hear it, but until then pointing out that she stole as well as overreached her position Within a year she was dismissing servants, ordering about his household knights, even speaking for his lordship when he was indisposed. She grew so influential that it was said about Lannisport that any man who wished for his petition to be heard should kneel before her and speak loudly to her lap … for Tytos Lannister's ear was between his lady's legs. She had even taken to wearing their mother's jewels. Which is another reason why she was punished. It is a hugely elitist society, can't have commoners acting like nobility.
  13. Do people in Westeros think this is a bad thing? Or do they think that an appropriate punishment for a woman who stole from a Lord's dead wife? As so often happens in these kind of discussions, you are conflating your opinion or even a modern opinion of Tywin's actions with the opinion of people in the medieval world. Something that songs are literally sang about in celebration. People in Westeros do not see the Reynes of Castamere tale as a negative for Tywin, but a positive. Well no, he did not according to Tywin himself. People who hate him may believe he did that, many people who are neutral may believe he did that. His own son is more than likely going to take his word on the matter. When did Tywin feel insulted by Tysha? Tyrion was the one who fucked up, Tysha was insignificant to Tywin. He could not even remember her name when Tyrion brought her up.
  14. He very obviously could have done worse. He could have lost far more men. Tywin was actually disappointed, he was hoping for a rout, but Roose did not fall into his trap Lord Tywin drained his cup, his face expressionless. "I put the least disciplined men on the left, yes. I anticipated that they would break. Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I'd hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout. Once he was fully committed, Ser Kevan's pikes would wheel and take him in the flank, driving him into the river while I brought up the reserve." Roose being far more cautious than the likes of the Greatjon is the reason he was picked to lead It was his first misstep, but how to make him see it without wounding his fledgling confidence? "Your father once told me that the Greatjon was as fearless as any man he had ever known." Robb grinned. "Grey Wind ate two of his fingers, and he laughed about it. So you agree, then?" "Your father is not fearless," Catelyn pointed out. "He is brave, but that is very different." Her son considered that for a moment. "The eastern host will be all that stands between Lord Tywin and Winterfell," he said thoughtfully. "Well, them and whatever few bowmen I leave here at the Moat. So I don't want someone fearless, do I?" "No. You want cold cunning, I should think, not courage." "Roose Bolton," Robb said at once. "That man scares me." So clearly other commanders, such as the Greatjon, may well have done a far worse job on the Green Fork than Roose did. There is zero indication that Robb is unhappy with Roose, yet Robb when he is angry about battle performance, Edmure and Glover come to mind, he is not afraid to bring it up and voice his displeasure.
  15. I really think you are overcomplicating a pretty straightforward matter. Slynt was qualified to do the job, the majority of Watchmen would likely prefer someone who was qualified to do the job over someone who was not. Slynt rose from a butcher's son to Gold Cloak, to a Captain of the Gold Cloaks to Lord Commander of the Gold Cloaks. That is going to impress a lot of people, especially the many commoners amongst the Nights Watch who could only dream of such advancement. The majority of the Watchmen can't read, but even if they could, they don't have a copy of ASOIAF to tell them what to think of Slynt. They don't share the biased opinion Jon has towards him.
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