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Bernie Mac

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  1. it was around a year Ned found it hard to imagine what could frighten Stannis Baratheon, who had once held Storm's End through a year of siege, surviving on rats and boot leather while the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne sat outside with their hosts, banqueting in sight of his walls. until you can find exactly how long it was then I'm comfortable with calling it that. of course, that is standard practice under a siege, you get rid of all the people you don't need, the Blackfish does the same during the war of the five kings again, name a seige in the last 100 years of westeros history that lasted longer without defeat? come on, stop guessing at numbers you don't know. there is zero indication there was less than 50 people. what we do know is that it was never taken. and it has been taken, has it not? Obviously Robert was more successful. how is that obvious? we know that Renly, in his words, left a strong garrison, we have no idea if Stannis did. There is no evidence that he left more men than Robert quote evidence from the books to prove that it was significantly less, because this, like your original point about the food, sounds a lot like guesswork rather than actual facts where is that claimed. at no point does Stannis claim he left more people or even that he left a large garrison. you mean the iron bank that came to him? Jon had no contact with the bank before that, had no idea were he was going to get money to pay for food and then out of nowhere a banker turns up and gives him money. it is hardly a great example certainly. but as i originally said, all things being equal (both sides having roughly the same strength) then Robert was the likely winner as he seems to the best military leader we have seen in the series. Tywin is certainly up there, but if we are talking about military command then Robert has the edge, Tywin having the ability to hire a 20k army is less to do with military leadership and more to do with wealth, which is not what the discussion is about. Tywin would have won the war for the crown if he joined them during Roberts Rebellion, however a straight up fight between the two of them as generals with roughly equal forces and Robert gets the edge, he is the most respected military leader in the series. Did Barristan or any of his other men allow him to fight two men at a time?
  2. Why read it then? Why make so many comments in a topic you have clearly hate and have no actual interest in discussing? Is just to be confrontational and stop others from sharing their opinions? Why are you trying to cause hostility on the board? Definition of righteous 1: acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin 2a : morally right or justifiable a righteous decision b : arising from an outraged sense of justice or morality righteous indignation Stannis is a 100% certain he is morally right, that his viewpoint is correct, he is righteous in that respect. but ethically he's all over the place. I doubt either GRRM or the people of Westeros would regard all his actions as ethical. If he didn't want to kill him he would not have killed him. That is pretty simple. He could have had him whipped, he could have had him thrown in a cell, he could have even told him what refusing his offer would mean. He was not forced into killing him, he made a decision, even when Slynt was pleading to be able to go to Greyguard. "If you have any last words, now is the time to speak them," he said, expecting one last curse. Janos Slynt twisted his neck around to stare up at him. "Please, my lord. Mercy. I'll … I'll go, I will, I …" No, thought Jon. You closed that door. no, that is not true. not once in the books does he think that i agree wholeheartedly, when he thinks of his punishment it is the potential threat Janos could be in the future. That is not justice, to execute someone of what they may do in the future. So why, in the middle of sentencing him, does he think of the other two punishments? All we can judge is written in the books, and from what I have read it looks like Jon over punished a man he was fantasizing about killing before the insubordination occured. sure, but his thought process during it does not suggest that death was his forced option.
  3. why would he need to? are all the warriors with Robert simply going to allow that on the battlefield?
  4. yeah, he did, the proof is in the pudding, the castle held out for a year under siege, not a single castle does that for a quarter as long in the war of the five kings. no, this is what the world book has to say on the matter If the garrison's supplies had been sufficient to the task, the castle might have held out indefinitely, but the war had come quickly and the storehouses and granaries were only half-full. they were half full before Robert arrived, war was not expected, that is why they are half full but. that is demonstrably false since it was never taken. that is what happens when war comes out of nowhere, especially wars that start during a winter. What do you expect Robert to do, magic up some food. All castles will eventually succumb to a siege should the war last long enough, Tywin's capital is no different.
  5. I'm sorry but this is a bizarre conclusion to come to, the 12 year old Hound was not in the same league as Robert in his prime. Clearly this is not correct, Storm's end withstood a siege for a year and was never taken, Robert left it fine.
  6. No, not all. As far as I know GRRM considers Stannis an incredibly righteous individual, which is true, there are few characters who are so sure of themselves but I don't recall him ever praising Stannis' ethics. Do you happen to have that quote?
  7. In private and to his allies, more than likely, but not to Jon or Stannis. Given that Jon does not mention or think that to justify the execution or that he is aware that other brothers call him that then my point is that it was immaterial to why Janos was executed. Not a single other person receives any sort of slap on the wrists for calling Jon a turncloak despite him being clear that they do. Slanders that are nothing more than speculation at this point. But the fact is we are in a position were we both have what happened written on page and the thoughts of the person making the decision, a rarity in most of the debates on this forum, and we know slander was not a reason. Had Jon actually brought it up, either to Slynt or in his thoughts then It would be pertinent but it is absent from both so coming to the conclusion that it played a part is wrong. Ran there is zero evidence that Slynt 'griped' about being a turncloak after Jon is Lord Commander, nor is there any evidence in Jon's own thoughts that this played a part. I think the fairer option would have been to let him know how seriously he was taking it. Once his life was on the line he was begging to be allowed to do it and given the reaction from both Bowen and Marsh it seems to have not been expected to be on the table. Jon himself, in the split second he orders his death thinks of two more appropriate punishments, no one, not even Jon himself, thought Janos saying no would have resulted in him losing his head. Are you really telling me that Slynt's role in his father's death and the fact that he was a potential future threat were not Jon's biggest reasons for ordering his death? of course not, if you were Thorne would you take that chance? nor was Slynt in Jon's command, he was offered the chance to be I'm sorry, but that is not clear at all. the chapter begins with him fantasizing about it. Jon slid the oilcloth down his bastard sword, watching the play of morning light across the ripples, thinking how easily the blade would slide through skin and fat and sinew to part Slynt's ugly head from his body. All of a man's crimes were wiped away when he took the black, and all of his allegiances as well, yet he found it hard to think of Janos Slynt as a brother. There is blood between us. This man helped slay my father and did his best to have me killed as well. Personally I don't know how anyone can read the above and not come to the conclusion that Jon wanted him dead, but the fact that this is now 15 pages long with many people taking up both sides we should probably stop saying Jon's motives on this are clear (though I know I probably have done so) I don't see much in his thoughts that Jon was sad about his death, nor did he spend a great deal of time coming up with the punishment for his crime or that he even acknowledged that death was an option before he sentenced him "As you will." Jon nodded to Iron Emmett. "Please take Lord Janos to the Wall - " - and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again. - and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him? " - and hang him," Jon finished. Janos Slynt's face went as white as milk. That i s not justice, a split second to go from a week in a cell to death is arbitrary at best.
  8. That is not really clear and given how much time had passed between these two chapters, about a week, there is no reason to think that Stannis is referring to a more recent outburst given Slynt was more than clear on his thoughts before the count. In fact given Jon's own comments it is clear that had he the opportunity to punish Slynt in the week between becoming Lord Commander and sentencing Slynt to death he would have I am giving you a chance, my lord. It is more than you ever gave my father. "You mistake me, my lord," Jon said. "That was a command, not an offer. Jon also never considers that in his thought process, the main cause of Slynt's execution is for what Jon thinks him capable of, not what he has actually done as a brother. —and confine him to an ice cell, he might have said. A day or ten cramped up inside the ice would leave him shivering and feverish and begging for release, Jon did not doubt. And the moment he is out, he and Thorne will begin to plot again. —and tie him to his horse, he might have said. If Slynt did not wish to go to Greyguard as its commander, he could go as its cook. It will only be a matter of time until he deserts, then. And how many others will he take with him? "—and hang him," Jon finished. Slynt has been executed not for what he did while Jon was Lord Commander, but for what he did before and what Jon feared he could do later. It was a decision the majority of us would have came to in Jon's position, but it was not justice. Jon took him aside and personally explained why, there was valid reason why while both Jon and Janos were perfectly well aware of the reasoning why. Had Sam refused been given 24 hours and still said no he would not have been executed for it. Had Grenn been in a similar position he too would not have been executed for it. The man who executed his father, who almost won the election was probably the only brother, including Thorne, who would have been dealt with like that, everyone else would have faced a less severe punishment.
  9. Bernie Mac

    Was Tywin Lannister a villain?

    no, I'm perfectly clear. There is zero indication that Tywin went 'ape shit'. Either you don't know what that phrase means or you are unfamiliar with the books. By all means quote the text that indicates that Tywin went 'ape shit' over this. When you resort to inventing events that never took place in the books to prove your point it indicates that your point is far from solid. Of course he was, marrying your daughter to royalty is pretty much the best any noble can hope for in their society. There is nothing villainous about that at all. You are jumping to some bizarre conclusions. Except that is all unsupported by the text, despite how shitty Aerys acted towards him he remained as Hand and despite his own dislike for Aerys he remains pragmatic throughout the war, refusing to pick a side until one looks like a clear winner. Someone who that bent out of shape would have joined the rebels much sooner, not at the very last minute. the text goes directly against your headcannon. in that same chapter Kevan points out that joining the crown was still an option when he was thinking of Connington. Quite obviously Tywin was still being pragmatic about the situation. not when he was a teenager and only recently knighted by Rhaegar. You were clearly confused about the timeline thinking that he had already killed his sister and father at this point, when that comes later yeah we are, it is clearly stated in OP's post, they are asking can Tywin's actions be justified. is there any need to be this condescending to strangers on the internet for the crime of not sharing your opinion? actually I think you are, OP's question is pretty clear, it is you who is trying to change the discussion, which I have no problem with, but the person you are responding to is more on topic than you are. It is a valid argument, the social norms of an era are an important part of this discussion. no, that is clearly wrong and a little naive. To think that the only reason such awful acts happened throughout history is due to a wounded ego is ridiculous You are clearly misreading how their society view that event, they don't view it as an atrocity, they celebrate it as a great victory. Do you really think all those singers at the wedding between Joffrey and Margaery would be singing about an atrocity at a wedding?
  10. We don't actually know that, Slynt does constantly call Jon a turncloak but we only hear of these times prior to him becoming the Lord Commander, the very last time Slynt calls him that is a two paragraphs before the final count. At no point after the election do we or Jon hear him call him a turncloak. The only person we actually hear call Jon a turncloak after he has became LC is Tormund He called Jon Snow a craven, a liar, and a turncloak, cursed him for a black-hearted buggering kneeler, a robber, and a carrion crow, accused him of wanting to fuck the free folk up the arse. Twice he flung his drinking horn at Jon's head, though only after he had emptied it. Tormund was not the sort of man to waste good mead. Jon let it all wash over him. He never raised his own voice nor answered threat with threat, which means little, however we do know other brothers have called him a 'turncloak' in ADWD and none are punished for it Mully cleared his throat. "M'lord? The wildling princess, letting her go, the men may say—" "—that I am half a wildling myself, a turncloak who means to sell the realm to our raiders, cannibals, and giants." Jon did not need to stare into a fire to know what was being said of him. The worst part was, they were not wrong, not wholly. So not only is there no actual evidence of him knowing that Slynt called him that after he became Lord Commander but there is no real reason to believe that saying that is a cause for a harsh punishment. Convince is an exaggeration, he convinced Sam to go to the Citadel, there was not attempt to convince Slynt after he first said no. Jon is a bastard, I don't think calling him that is grounds for execution nor is calling a 16 year old 'boy'. Nor can you really label him pointing out he has friends as an actual threat, certainly not one worthy of harsh punishment.
  11. Bernie Mac

    Was Tywin Lannister a villain?

    Harren refusing to bend the knee is the reason his house (and everyone else at with him) was wiped out, it had nothing to do with him being cruel or sadistic. but regardless Roger Reyne was capable of cruelty Others slain upon that grievous day included Lord Robert Reyne. Ser Roger Reyne (the Red Lion), his eldest son and heir, took a bloody vengeance after the battle, slaying seven captive Peakes before Prince Aegon arrived to halt the slaughter. and and had pushed their luck frequently Lord Tytos had commanded his good-father sternly not to involve the Reynes “for we have no quarrel with Castamere,” but that did not stop Lady Tarbeck from sending to her brothers. Denys Marbrand (tywin's grandfather) and his knights were still two days ride from Tarbeck Hall when the Red Lion fell upon his camp in the night, slaying hundreds, amongst them old Marbrand himself. When word reached Casterly Rock, loud cries went out for war, and Maester Belden tells us that Lord Tytos “turned as purple as a plum, and could not speak for his wroth.” Yet even before the banners could be called, Ser Reynard Reyne appeared at court with his easy smile and sly tongue, to make obesience before the Lion’s Mouth. Lord Marbrand’s death had been a “tragic misunderstanding,” Ser Reynard said; his brother had believed he was attacking a band of outlaws and robber knights. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But elsewhere, the collectors were met with sullen resistance and open defiance. Lord Reyne reportedly laughed when his maester read him Ser Tywin’s edicts, and counseled his friends and vassals to do nothing. “The cub will soon grow weary of chasing his own tail,” he said. . . yet he set about strengthening the defenses of Castamere as well. War was years in the making and each time the Reynes were let off for something their behaviour only got worse.
  12. Bernie Mac

    Was Tywin Lannister a villain?

    Case in point, what Riverrun heard of Robb's victory at Oxcross the Lannisters in their watchtowers got not so much a glimpse of them." Rivers lowered his voice. "There's some say that after the battle, the king cut out Stafford Lannister's heart and fed it to the wolf." "I would not believe such tales," Catelyn said sharply. "My son is no savage." and what Kings Landing heard Sansa had always thought Lancel Lannister comely and well spoken, but there was neither pity nor kindness in the look he gave her. "Using some vile sorcery, your brother fell upon Ser Stafford Lannister with an army of wargs, not three days ride from Lannisport. Thousands of good men were butchered as they slept, without the chance to lift sword. After the slaughter, the northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain."
  13. Stannis has not sworn any oaths of the black, they mean nothing to him. He also is on record for not liking Slynt, Stannis probably would have nodded had Slynt lost his head when Arryn wanted him replaced. Come on, we both know that is not true, most of the arguments from one side have been along the lines of "you only think that because you hate Jon". The text is pretty clear on Jon's motivation and it is not for the insubordination, it is for what Jon fears Slynt may do in the future. He is also clear that he can not bring himself to think of him as a brother so he does not treat him like so. He never told him his life was on the line. As soon as he does he recants. Except given his reaction to the death penalty he clearly did not know that was the sentence and given the first two punishments that come to Jon's mind then we can safely deduct death is not the norm. maybe, maybe not. The Watch is dealing with a majority who don't want to be there, going to harsh with punishments could lead to trouble later down the line yeah, not many people are really arguing differently. it is not really the point of the debate given that Jon is later murdered by allies of Slynt it is hard to argue he did that.
  14. Littlefinger previously lived in the capital, what use would he have had for Lyn? How long do you think he has been workin for Petyr for? I'm not assuming anything, I've not really focused on their partnership I just disagreed with one of your original points "Lyn Corbray is a kid toucher ". How so? that is cool, that is your prerogative.
  15. ah good point, "Do you think if I asked nicely Ser Lyn would kill my suitors for me?" "He might, for a plump bag of gold." Ser Lyn Corbray was forever desperately short of coin, all the Vale knew that. "Alas, all I have is a plump pair of teats. Though with Ser Lyn, a plump sausage under my skirts would serve me better." however it should also be noted that Corbray, as far as we know, has only done one job for Littlefinger and that was towards the end of AFFC (the year 300), so obviously his reputation is going to be that of someone who is constantly broke