Bael's Bastard

You are engaging in literal antisemitic Holocaust inversion.

Substitute Hamas with Nazis and you might begin to understand how absolute full of shit it is to say this to Jews.

As Israel has been saying, there is already months worth of food, water, medicine, and fuel in Gaza, but Hamas steals and hoards it, while the "humanitarian" organizations and news orgs that sold their souls for access to Hamas's Gaza don't say a word and perpetuate Hamas's narratives. Just as they did for access to Nazi Germany. https://www.timesofisrael.com/arab-western-officials-agree-hamas-keeping-gaza-food-fuel-for-itself-ny-times/

The comment I responded to simply does not reflect the reality. Aside from support for Netanyahu, Likud, and further right parties tanking in polls as a result of the judicial overhall (in the case of far right parties) and the Hamas attack (in the case of Likud), another recent poll indicated only 29% of Israelis support an immediate ground offensive, with 49% preferring to wait and try to get the hostages freed. Which is not to say there is not support for a ground offensive at some point, but the idea that the Hamas attacks have driven Israelis to support Netanyahu or driven them to the right or driven them to support bloodthirsty indiscriminate revenge is baseless. It is the sort of analysis being spread by people with no personal connection to the situation talking out of either their own ignorance or BS they picked up from others on social media.

No. Last year Likud won 32 seats and its most far right coalition partners won 14. In the month before Oct 7, polls already showed Likud dropping to between 31-25 seats and Netanyahu's most far right coalition partners dropping to 10-9. Since the Hamas attacks and gov responses Likud is now polling at 19-18 seats, and his most right wing coalition partners continue to poll at 10-9. The Hamas attacks and gov response have not helped Netanyahu at all, nor have Israelis slid any further to the far right, on the contrary. The opposition has gone from 54 seats in the last election to polling at 78-77 (admittedly including one Arab party that would probably never join even a left or center gov making up 5 of those seats).

In the real world, Ukraine identifies its struggles with Israel's, while Russia courts Hamas and is the primary benefactor of Hamas' (and Hizbullah's) greatest supporter.

Hamas found the sweet spot to win over phoney progressives and it is murdering behind human shields. They used to wear suicide vests when they murder Jews, now they wear Gaza.

Well said by Magdi Khalil https://www.memri.org/tv/egyptian-american-analyst-khalil-hamas-isis-gaza-human-shields

Jews are not holding our breath waiting for those who spent weeks saying reports about these atrocities were fabrications or exaggerations, including in these very threads, to admit their error and apologize.

The US was attacked once by a group nearly 7000 miles away. Israeli communities were massacred by a genocidal group less than 1 mile away that has been murdering Jews and firing thousands of rocketed into Israeli communities for nearly two decades as the elected gov of Palestine and for more than a decade before that. The comparison is ridiculous as is most of the commentary on the history of the conflict. Israel needs to have a plan for sure. Not allowing Hamas to make it out of this in power over Gaza is a bare necessity, as it will never be a negotiating partner and will keep pulling this shit as long as it has the proximity to. Meanwhile, there is no hint that the hostages are receiving the care they need or that there is any plan to release them, and the useful idiots are calling for a ceasefire that will enable Hamas to stock back up. Revenge isn't what is driving the response, else there would be hundreds of thousands dead, and tortured and mutilated like Hamas did. Uprooting the ability for Hamas to do this against is driving the response. This goes beyond Netanyahu. He is fucking done and nothing he does now will keep or put him back in power.

Reminds me of Entebbe when they separated non-Jews from Jews/Israelis.

The British (whose pro-Arab and anti-Jewish contingent are being glossed over in the revisionist accounts here) together with pressure from Arab Palestinians were directly responsible for preventing large numbers of Jews from being able to immigrate to Jewish areas of Palestine, leaving them to be murdered by the Nazis. The plan to partition Palestine between Jewish Palestinians (with room for refugees from Arab and European lands) and Arab Palestinians was not an injustice. And the only reason the Nakba happened was because Arab Palestinians and their Arab League allies tried to commit genocide/ethnic cleansing against Jewish Palestinians and the Jewish state they founded for Jews wherever they had been exiled to. Their attempt and failure created a catastrophe for them where they intended a catastrophe for Jewish Palestinians.

It is rich to preach to indigenous MENA peoples and center Arabs in sermons about recent western colonialism in MENA, as Arabs and the Arabized are the "white people" in the experiences of much of the indigenous peoples of MENA, forced Arabization is the colonialism we are most acquainted with, and the west almost entirely sacrificed us and our indigenous communities and homelands to nearly complete Arab sovereignty and domination. Bunch of bullshit.

The situation with Jordan is also complicated. After the 47-49 war, WB Palestinians declared Transjordan's king their king and asked them to annex Palestine (as in the the West Bank of the Jordan river). See the Jericho Conference. Transjordan agreed, annexed the WB, and extended citizenship to WB Palestinians, which is why today it is called Jordan (as in "both sides of the Jordan") rather than Transjordan (referring to just the East side of the Jordan), because between 1950-1988 it was a united monarchy claiming both East and West banks of the Jordan at the behest of WB Palestinians. For all intents and purposes, it was the Palestinian state between 1950-1967 (sans Gaza, which was ruled by Egypt) and continued to lay claim to such until 1988 when it passed the baton of Palestine/the WB to the PLO. It is part of why such a large part (perhaps even a significant majority) of Jordan's population is Palestinian.

Be skeptical of the source. It is absurd to suggest Israel refused any hostages.

Nobody who supports Israel's existence is anti-Zionist, nor would most such people self-identify as such. More than 4/5 of US Jews, most of whom vote Democrat, most of whom historically support a two state solution/Palestinian state consider Israel essential or important to what being Jewish means to them. Anti-Zionist Jews, Jews who self-identify as anti-Zionist, are a very small minority of Jews in the US and the World. They are tokenized and given much greater attention and import than they have among Jews. And yes, unless they have a Jewish mother, many such Jews and Jewish orgs promoted by them are not actually considered Jewish by any of the movements liberal or conservative (Reform, Conservative/Masorti, Orthodox, etc).

Little different than the many people tokenizing and perpetuating the propaganda of anti-Zionist Jews whose stances towards Israel are antithetical to the majority of Jews in the US and the World.

Over 25% of Israelis are non-Jews with full civil and religious rights. Meanwhile, the Palestinian state we are all pushing for is unlikely to have any Jewish population with the exception of a small number of Jewish spouses.

Even if they are being truthful, "civilian" hostages is a major qualifier.

Nobody seems to care or acknowledge why Gaza is apparently running out of everything except rockets/weapons.

I'm not suggesting that they aren't illegal or that Israel had a right to rebuild them. I'm pointing out that they are of real value to both sides, and in large part consist of rebuilt Jewish communities that were supposed to be part of Arab Palestine, just as Israel has 2 million Arab Palestinian citizens today descended from those who were not expelled and did not flee out of fear or confidence in the Arab armies. It is one thing to suggest Israel doesn't have a right to rule them, but a bit different to say it is illegal for Jews to live in places they were illegally ethnically cleansed from. Nevertheless, it is inescapable that Jews in those communities will either need to be removed again or partially absorbed into a Palestinian state in any deal. And to be clear, all those lands you named were places Jews were not only ethnically cleansed from but mostly ethnically cleansed to from their indigenous homeland. But Jews and Palestinians both must accept less than maximalist demands. What fucks most Jews up is that Israel's founders did in 1947 and several Israeli leaders have up to 2008, with no reciprocation from Arab Palestinians.

If settlements were not valuable to parts of both sides, they wouldn't be such a sticking point. As for illegal, some of the most populous of those settlements were rebuilt from Jewish communities Transjordan and/or Iraq ethnically cleansed in 48-49. Whether Israel had a right to rebuild them or not, they were supposed to be Jewish communities in the Arab Palestinian state, which can't just be glossed over in a deal.

Palestinians have grown from less than 1 million a century ago to nearly the same number as the total Jews in the world today. Whatever can be said about Israeli actions, it is disingenuous to describe any part of the conflict as genocide without redefining genocide beyond recognition. A two state solution would/will give Palestinians who are descended from those who were forcibly expelled or left out of fear of Jewish forces or confidence the Arab armies would wipe out the Jews a place to call their own. Several Israeli leaders have accepted or offered such solutions between 1947 and 2008 with no serious Palestinian proposal, however far we are from that now with Bibi, Abbas, and Hamas in power.

Not sure what offer you are referring to as the best (surely not Bibi/Trump, which was easily the worst), but it can't be the Barak/Camp David or Olmert offers.

I hear you. What I do know is pretty much nobody wants a one state solution except maximalists like Hamas, Kahanists, and foreigners who either don't understand, don't care, or want one side to dominate or expel the other once and for all. The only just solution remains a multi-state solution, whether that be two or three of whatever sort.