LongRider

  Not independently thinking?    I carefully reread the chapter and disagree.  'Alayne' thinks of Sansa's family members three times in this chapter and they include Ned, Robb and Arya.  She even remembers Jeyne Poole.  Her idea of the Winged Knights is to provide protection for SR.  She remembers that her husband still lives.  To me these are not thoughts directed by LF, these are thoughts of someone remembering her family and showing concern for SR.   She notes and is surprised at the "venom" in Lyn Cobray's voice when he speaks of LF.  This causes her to wonder if he is still loyal to LF or just pretending to be hateful towards him.  Later, after she meets HtH and the Waynwoods and has shown them to their rooms, she  runs into Lothor Brune who calls Harry an "arse and a upjumped squire".  What does she do when she hears these insults?  She give Lothor a hug!  Does she tell LF about what Cobray or Brune said?  No, she doesn't, she keeps this info to herself.  If she had no independence or self determining thoughts, why did she not report what these two men said to LF?   She's become friends with Myranda, someone LF tried to warn her away from, but she befriended her anyway.  Not independent thinking, doing only what LF directs?  No, I can't agree.

When it comes to discussing future events for KL, whats missing is the effect the murders of Kevan and Pycelle will have.  Varys wanted to disrupt the efforts Kevan was making to put KL into order by taking him out and causing a power vacuum at the top, which he has achieved.  Having Kevan dead doesn't necessarily put Cersei back in charge.  But how will it play out remains to be seen.   Will that affect the Vale?  The tourney may provide all sorts of unintended consequences for LF's plans, and that may put the Vale into instability as well.  Once the news from KL reaches the Vale it could affect what's happening there too.   I doubt that Cersei will send UnGregor anywhere as I think that monster will blow up in her an Qyburn's faces.  Already other members of the KG are noticing weird things about their newest member.   With the chaos caused by Kevan's murder, I for one don't see Sansa heading south anytime soon if at all. 

GRRM's comment about Sansa being an 'unreliable narrator' referrers to the memory of the un-kiss.  Be that as it may, it's a phrase that has launched a thousand cracked pots.  Sansa wasn't raped at the BotB, if she had been, I feel that GRRM would have spelled that out.  He didn't because it didn't happen. 

Hello Parizad!  Thank you for reading my essays and I'm glad you enjoyed them.   :cheers:    Speculation about Gilly being PG is speculation of course.  As for breast feeding being a protection against pregnancy, well, all I know is that in real life, it's not much so, a pregnancy could be possible.   :dunno:   And Tarly just having to take in a wilding girl and his sons' bastard?  Oh, the lovely (for us) heartburn. Then for him to be heir?  Even better.     :lol:

Who says she will go to WF before Rickon, if indeed he does come back into the story? As for her ability to leave the Vale, well... I for one don't give two spits about the show or about show!Sansa.

I don't see any reason why 'shaping her own destiny' has to take place in the South tho. Plenty of 'destiny shaping' opportunities in WF and the North I should think.

If book Sansa makes it back to WF, why should she leave her home? Also, is she's so good at politics, I would think that WF and the North could her skills and her connections in the Vale. With fAgeon and Dany on the horizon, WF/North could use a politician. As for Lady bones, if Sansa goes to visit Lady's grave in the litchard in WF, that might just be a very powerful moment for her. Perhaps her warg powers will get a recharge.

I love the idea of Sansa in Greywater Watch! They claim to know the end game, so what. They've changed the story and the players so much that I think HBO's end game and GRRM's endgame will be very different. Looking for spoilers from S5? From what I've seen, you won't find much that can really be counted on.

I used this timeline; https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj_uNZmcJaTddG9BVU5tRnJJTE5KcE5JRkFha1ZfNUE#gid=8

Having discussed the Bri/Jaimie 'meetup' before it was pointed out to me that why Bri may have met Jaime on her own, would the BWB let her travel there and back unescorted? In other words, she's still their prisoner, so perhaps they were just offstage and Bri took him directly to them?

Sansa thinks alot of her family, friends and memories from WF in this chapter. The quote shows her telling the truth in an very oblique way, much like Varys does. She also does not do everything with Harry LF tells her too. For instance LF told her have HtH take her outside for breath of fresh air, that didn't happen. Little subtle things, which I think show that Sanas is not all in as Alayne.

I researched the timeline: What's adding to the puzzle of the tourney is the timeline. I looked at a timeline and it suggests that the day Sansa left the Eyrie for the Gates of the Moon, and the day Bri was hung and released by LS were the same day. Fifth month, fourth day, year 300. Bri meets up with Jamie and they disappear on Fifth month, twenty third day, year 300, so that would be 19 days, almost three weeks later.

This is a 'Varys' type of sentence; she's telling the truth here, her 'father' killed Lysa.

Indeed! She made a snow castle of Winterfell, not the Red Keep. Kinda a big clue right there.

I see her returning North as well, but she could have 'side trips' along the way. She has allies in Greywater Watch which isn't that far from the Vale, Bri and possibly Jaime, possibly the BWB and who knows, there are 'womens quarters' on the Quite Isle. The Manderlys in White Harbor would help her and even many lords of the Vale as well. So going North could be a very interesting journey of our girl Sansa.

Well, no I haven't, but I have seen The Wizard of Oz.

This where to me you come across as attacking the person, not the idea. I base this on other posts of yours I've seen that I've felt attacked the person.

I appreciate the bolded because I have alot of trouble with Sansa's story with LF. I have come to realize that her story with LF is similar to Arya's in Braavos with the HoBW and Bran with the BR. Each of these Stark children are with their mentors now. How grey to to dark the will finally get remains to be seen, but for me currently Sansa's journey is difficult to read because I hate LF so much. However, I must admit, parsing through this thread and others has brought out detail and thoughts that make for a more interesting and fleshed out read of this chapter.

Becoming a player makes sense, becoming a Queen, no. I don't see Sansa as a Queen, especially not in KL wed to fAgeon, Jon or Tyrion. She is however, a rather high born lady and I do see her becoming Lady Sansa once again. That may well be in WF with Rickon. Sansa becoming more than a pawn makes sense, being the forever hostage does not. Shadrich may or may not be in the pay of Varys, but either way, mice are common enough creatures that his sigil and mouse identity could be unrelated to Varys. I know, crazy talk, but I still think that he's not Varys's man.

Awesome!!!

The bolded I completely agree with. What is in the text? As TWE notes he is opportunistic and exploitative. But not all are under LF's spell. Bronze Yohn Royce doesn't seem to be, and what of Corbray? Did Sansa tell it true when she came across him in the practice yard? Lyn wanted Lysa for similar reasons as LF; for her claim. And he may of wanted it badly, I'd love to see that LF has underestimated him. In this chapter he putting on a tourney and giving lavish banquets and gifts. A huge lemon cake that is giving the finger to the starving Riverlands. I really think LF is beginning to slip. He can't control all the pawns, and in a tourney, with emotions high, violence the game of the day and plenty of wine, well, some of those pawns may make moves of their own.

The show is off the rails, it means little and less to ASOIAF.

Cool, YMMV and all that. :)

But lots of new daggers could present lots of new opportunities for violence. Tempers can run high in a tourney, so it remains to be seen.

Agree with the bolded. LF hired the sellswords, he did not indicate that they were working together, only that they were introduced to Sansa at the same time. Brie was actively looking for Sansa, which was why Shadrich may have offered for the them to throw in together. He might be willing to share a 'plumb bag of gold' with one other (or try to cheat her), but two others? I don't think the gold bag is that plump. I'm not convinced he's one of Vary's mice either. He's a sellsword, a free agent.