fionwe1987

Good point on the s'redit in the menagerie. But I'm pretty sure even if some were in the battle in the book, none were actually mentioned directly as having any particular impact on the fighting.

To be fair, none of their tactics or the use of their other weapons plays much of a role in the books in tGH either. They head out of the city to fight the Whitecloaks, take a few whallops from Egwene before Nynaeve stops her, and then proceed to be destroyed by the Heroes. I don't think the Raken play any role at all, though I think a few grolm are mentioned?

I have no interest in discussing Oppenheimer in greater detail with you. Thanks. Ignoring history is not a good way to analyze the movie.

You do realize these are real events, and that the book itself is an imperfect rendering of these events? Nor is the movie a slavish adherent to the book in plenty of other ways. Yeah, and the real Oppenheimer, who was, after all, a real person who didn't know everything, benefitted from the knowledge of other experts he met and read. The movie doesn't ignore this basic reality of Oppenheimer's existence, by and large, which is why it is so much better than the typical science movie. Which is why Meitner's exemption is bizarre. You do know that for a while, in the 50s, Meitner was called the Mother of the Atomic bomb in the media, and Oppenheimer the father? With the crucial difference that even though Meitner could follow the logic to a chain reaction just as well as Oppenheimer (and in fact, did), she also said she'd have nothing to do with building a bomb, and explicitly rejected being associated with it and being called the Mother of the Bomb? Gee, seems kiiiinda relevant to Oppenheimer's story in the movie, given that he did choose to build a bomb, and was instrumental in its design? Is it unimportant to the story that others consciously made the opposite choice, even when they were actually in the middle of it more so than Oppenheimer, and had every reason to want the end of Nazi Germany as a Jewish refugee from there? Of course, you're welcome to the opposite opinion, but please don't hold up Oppenheimer as an example here, then. You tokenize that which is important, then reject its potential inclusion as tokenism. Then do the reverse when it comes to analyzing the show. Fascinating.

Yeah, there's room for improvement, but also signs of improvement. Actual room to expand the story would be good, too. Yeah weird they only had it in the episode that could have most used those additional seconds. Agree on the Aes Sedai centrism, also. And I'm not a huge fan of the music for it.

On Oppenheimer: I loved the movie, but the movie also cut off important stuff, with the important distinction of being real events. And while I wouldn't call Nolan anything close to anti-woke, or even particularly sexist compared to his colleagues, and would correctly point to trying to fit such things into a 3 hour movie, but the movie's treatment of the actual female physicists who played a role was awful. To have a movie about the atom bomb without Lise Meitner even being mentioned is a spectacular miss. The woman literally figured out what was going on in Bethe's experiments while on a walk in a new country she'd just escaped to, wasn't credited in the paper, and didn't fucking get the Nobel, even though the committee didn't have the excuse that she was dead. How is it ok for the movie to continue with this absurdity, and write her out? I was also personally miffed that we didn't get to see Fermi drop his little bits of paper and approximate the yield of the bomb. Its the coolest and most practical moment from that day, and its been written about, and Fermi's approximations have also been worked out, and it is the one piece of science there that anyone should be able to understand. The point I'm trying to make is, Oppenheimer has plenty of issues, but those issues are at least in part about movie length, not just about the specific political agendas of the writing team. When you're looking at the show as a reader, if you think the fact that the books are long, and the show is short doesn't have any impact on the story, that's fine. Its a nonsensical opinion, but I don't really see the point of discussing this if you're not going to move past it. Agreed. I think its fine to have the female characters have more action, but not in the way the show is handling it, and not in the way it is making the ta'veren storylines rushed and flat.

On the Egwene thing: she's definitely Rafe's golden child. I'd argue she was RJ's too, if you go through the Companion, but that's my interpretation. The point is, though, she's a very different kind of golden child for RJ, and clearly, she's my favorite of RJ's characters in a different way than she is to Rafe. I think what would have worked in that scene is Egwene hitting the ships, and destroying the Seanchan fleet. They should have had her continue to battle the rest of the fleet after the shield drops, and had Rand and Ishamael fight with their One Power enhanced swords. Alternatively, have Elayne reach the top and help Egwene after she struggles for a few moments to hold off Ishy. Either of those would have made some sense and still given the female characters more to do, which absolutely is an issue with the books. I remember all this speculation about Egwene being set up as Lanfear's antithesis, and Nynaeve as Semirhage's, but the books had pretty much all the Forsaken fall to the boys, in battle, which is just dumb. That said, the show's solution is not working, either. I'm all for all the female characters seeing more action, but in a way that makes sense. This finale did not, and could have used the same basic premise and setup to deliver something better.

So the only problem is that the writers suck, and are too woke. Any factor that points to other issues must be ignored, because, of course, you Foretold this, and clearly, you're correct, and nothing can make you wrong. Hello, Elaida! Smart way to introduce the character, this.

In the post episode discussion, Pike literally says this was like 3 episodes rolled into one. And that about sums it up, for me. So much of what didn't work in the finale would have worked if the story had that extra room to breathe. Amazon is shooting itself in the foot.

It is as deadly as the show needs it to be. That said, maybe it needs to be wielded by Mat to have its full effect, for some reason? Not that the show has bothered to show this, or anything... The Oaths are flexible, but not that flexible. If Rand being shielded can be twisted into a personal defense argument by Moiraine, then she is, functionally, not following that Oath, at all. You can't take a lie, imagine it to be truth, and speak it. Nor can you come up with nonsensical rationalizations and use the Power as a weapon. For contrast, in Knife of Dreams and Lord of Chaos, multiple Aes Sedai make it clear they cannot attack a mass of Aiel/Seanchan till they're close enough that the Aes Sedai feel directly threatened. That's because the Oath specifically mentions using the Power as a weapon only as a last defense when your life, that of a Warder or another sister are at stake. And you cannot imagine the threat, you must know it is a threat. I need to see the scene again, but when Renna released Egwene, her arm band fell off first, then Egwene's collar. When it happens with Renna, her collar gets released first, then Egwene's armband drops, which to me implies Renna died first. They speak "New Tongue" which is a simplified version of Old Tongue, so RJinsisted they just picked it up. But it shouldn't work like that, and the rest of the language evolution in WoT doesn't make much sense, anyway. Chalk this up to bad worldbuilding. ETA: On the whole "woke" thing... can we define woke and stick to that definition, please? At least for this conversation? Otherwise, you can say "anti-woke" and use it to cover nearly any viewpoint.

On the Oaths thing, Moiraine doesn't have a leg to stand on. If she doesn't think they're Darkfriends for sure, and she doesn't, the threat to Rand, even with the possibility of what that can mean for the world, doesn't justify her killing them, per the Oaths. She needs to be in personal danger from them, which she clearly was not. Egwene fighting Ishamael: that she could hold the shield for a bit but struggled seems fine, but I agree that Ishamael didn't seem to be doing much. One could ask if he was really even trying, but towards the end, he definitely was, and it would have made more sense that Elayne arrives and links with Egwene. The two of them linked holding off Ishamael would be much more believable. On figuring out the a'dam, I'm also unhappy with the "very weak channeler" nonsense. That said, Egwene is the one who figures it out in the books, too, so this isn't Rafe favoritism. That said, I'm pretty sure someone asked RJ what happens if an a'dam bound person put an a'dam on their leash holder. Them canceling out works for me, but I'll be honest, the better escape would have been Elayne and Nynaeve breaking her free, then her surprising Renna by hitting her with the very pitcher she was trained on. Renna is definitely dead, though. The a'dam wouldn't have snapped open on its own if not. What a waste.

Elayne, at least, had something to do. She Healed Rand while bleeding from an arrow to her thigh, with which she hopped up a pretty tall tower. I also feel it was absurd they didn't have Nynaeve at least struggle with torturing Seta. Some of the writing on this in tGH is twee, but Nynaeve is a Healer, and she shouldn't be going the Semirhage route, but I think it's clear they're going to make *all* of them "darker". Egwene killing Renna also felt wrong. Renna having to helplessly witness her former damane fight a Forsaken would have been better, IMO. And then she could take news to Seanchan, while trying to hide what she knows. Lost opportunity, there. Yeah it wasn't great, or anything. An episode or two more wouldn't have hurt to set up some of this, and improve on the scenes they have here, but even without that, I think they moved too many pieces needlessly in the finale. Also, I'm guessing no Finns of any kind, except Donal? The Ashan'deri being replaced by the ruby dagger... not a fan of this mashup. It's clear though that Fain is playing a sort of long game. But when is Rand to get the other wound? From a reanimated Ishamael when he battles for Callandor (if that even happens)? In the books, those two wounds are how Rand figures out how to cleanse Saidin. I hope they don't drop that, it was a good piece of world building. ETA: agree that Ishy's "death" was dissatisfying. Sheathing the sword and all that from the books made the emotional stakes of the battle clear, and did a far better job establishing Rand's personality, than what we got here. And not fighting Turak, I get, but they missed a chance to have Lan teach Rand, and then Rand employ what he learned. It would have made the finale work a lot better.

Avengers Assemble! I don't mind the explicit affirmation that the Two Rivers folk, Elayne, Avinendha, Moiraine, Lan and Loial are all Heroes of the Horn. It's always been speculated, and it makes reasonable sense. I'd add Min to the list, also. And Thom. Basically, the crew that Min sees sparks around, with Rand at the center of it. Uno... interesting. Gaidal, I presume, and we got brief glimpses of Brigitte when the Heroes do like the Ghost Army from Return of the King. That was all fairly well done. The Dragon Banner as an illusion. I like it. We know Moiraine can do illusions at this scale, and her attack on the ship was also suitably well done. Also, is Lan back to being UberBadass on that scale that some of you care so much about? I mean, snatching arrows from the air gracefully and smoothly using it to kill next Seanchan rando has to count, right? We can presume the show is saying that with the bond masked, he's less of a badass, which seems fine to me, and has some interesting implications for why Alanna masks her bond with her possible Darkfriend BedWarder. Speaking of badass, what the fuck are they doing with Nynaeve? Healing is her thing, and both finales have had her being helpless. And the two Wondergirls who struggle to nurse a mildly injured bird to health get to do the cool Healing? Not a fan of this. At all. They had plenty of ways to do this right. The Horn blowing could have suddenly made her able to channel and Heal Elayne perfectly, and she actually does Heal Rand in the books, so they could have had Elayne join Egwene on shield duty while Nynaeve struggled to pull it together and Heal Rand. I'm not a fan of this. It is a dishonor that deserves a very firm braid tug that threatens to pull all the hair from the scalp. Back to things that do not make me rage, they did a good job integrating Dain Bornhald, Hopper's death (seriously that was not fun to watch with my dog next to me) and setup for how Perrin and the Whitecloak story will look. And hello Moghedien. At first, I thought we'd see Ishy reincarnated right away, but this was a good twist. I love the actor who played her. The spider stuff was suitably creepy, and they set up her character very well, because she does start off way bolder because she's so much better than the Aes Sedai. I look forward to her interactions with Nynaeve and Egwene, though at the rate they're going, Nynaeve will be replaced by Nicola, or some other character, while she stands by watching helplessly, not even fucking tugging her braid! On the whole, this episode worked for me. It was a good finale, very much all action, that mostly paid off. Except for what they did to Ingtar. He's the only redeemed Darkfriend, but in this turning, he gets relegated to side character who dies a forgettable death? Ugh. Based on this episode, I think it's likely Falme and the Tower will be where they'll do the Tear stuff from tSR, for now. I still think there's a White Tower trip there, somewhere,and then the setup will be to combine Tanchico and Tear, and push Callandor into the season after. So Rand goes to Rhuidean and gets the Aiel, and then they attack Tear, and its a long siege. Maybe Couladin is a channeler, secretly Asmodean, and declares himself false Dragon and False Car'a'carn, and heads to Tear for the sword, with Sammael/Be'lal already inside. Then you can have the Battle of Cairhein outside Tear, and drop Callandor in there. Lots of ways to go, but I'll definitely be watching.

To... scowl?

The finale was surreally awful. The whole season was basically setup, and bad, flat, boring setup, at that. Lots of nice visuals but ugh, that is just not enough to make this anything more than a plodding mess.

Wow. That was subtle. A good one, if so, but I'm also interested to see what's beneath the surface of that scene, so I hope there's something to it.

Ugh yes. She reeked of "Admin toady".

I missed that. But if they're stoneless, then the need for Ryma's rings is still explained by the need for an Ajah stone, even if they do return to the Tower. On the flip side, in the books, Siuan did expect them to make the claim, and didn't tell them not to. They could just have her give them rings that will help them pretend, along with her letter of writ.

You're right Ryma's rings are going to be important, but they locked themselves into that when they added the Ajah-specific stones to the rings, so I don't think this necessarily proves they won't be returning to the Tower. That sword cuts both ways

They better do the columns right, not just in terms of VFX, but as an emotional tale. Definitely a high point of the series. In the books, the Jangai Pass from Cairhein the the Waste is the largest pass through the Spine of the World, and is the way through which the Silk Path goes to Shara. Rhuidean, the Shaido holds, and Alcair Dal, where Rand reveals the history of the Aiel to them which causes Couladin to rebel, are all near the Silk Path. None of this needs to remain in the books, so yes, they can attack Tear, instead of Cairhein. Cairhein just works better, because of the history of the Aiel War, but remember, this happens in book 5, not 4, so I dunno that Tear's presence or absence in season 3 is affected by this. Sure, but isn't that like saying Harry Potter repeats story beats by having the characters take a train to the same school every year? Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve are students. It's not that repetitive to have them go back to the place where they're supposed to learn. It is repeated exactly once, and this time, the girls leave fully aware of the scope of their peril. Further, they interact with the Tower's politics, and their actions do lead to the coup, in part, so I'm not sure the broad similarity of location and characters justifies calling this a repeated story beat. The Accepted test for Egwene is the first time she comes face to face with the "Rand or the Tower" question, and I think this is important both to explain why they're gonna break up one season after Rand makes a cross continental journey to save Egwene, and to explain Egwene's character arc going into the future. As much as Nynaeve's test helped establish her motivations and arc, Egwene's test, in the books, is far more consequential plot wise. It's where we learn about the ability of channelers to be turned to the Dark, for one. And sure, all this can be scattered elsewhere, but why? If some set of events in the Tower play such a major role in the rest of the plot, there needs to be more of a reason than "same people in same location leaving soon to another location" to cut it out. Hopefully, as you said, the finale will clarify things a bit. Rand's going to meet Avinendha, which he doesn't, at this stage, in the books. So if he shows signs of going somewhere with her, or if Moiraine thinks Mat needs further healing in the Tower, etc we'll be able to speculate better. ETA: I'd definitely expect a time jump that puts Rand closer to Tear/the Waste and Egwene and co in the Tower at the start of season 3. The trip from Falme isn't shown for any of them in any great detail.

The rings don't solve much. In the books, they help the Accepted pretend to be Aes Sedai. But in the show, there's no ring when you're raised to Accepted (that I remember), and since you need a stone of the color of your Ajah anyway, it makes sense Accepted don't get them. So yes, Ryma's rings can allow them to pretend to be Aes Sedai, but that would have been needed anyway, since the rings have Ajah-specific stones. Also, Liandrin can't return to the Tower, can she? Anvaere revealed Barthanes to be a Darkfriend. Ergo, she knows Liandrin is one, too, and I cannot imagine she's sitting on this information while letting the Queen know her son is a Darkfriend. I think Liandrin's escape is going to be she disappears from the Sun Palace. I think we'll get a return from the Wondergirls to the Tower simply because the coup works less well, otherwise. When are Egwene and Nynaeve to even meet Elaida? Their immediate rejection of being loyal to the Tower is because they have met her, been questioned by her, and know that she will deal with Rand horribly. The coup requires setup, and that setup is better if the Wondergirls are in the middle of it, and their departure sets it off, than having us spend time in the Tower with no main characters at all. On the flip side, there's a lot of what Rand does in the Waste that I don't see making it to the show. After he goes through the columns in Rhuidean, he goes to Cold Rock Hold, and there's all the political maneuvering around collecting the other clans, before he Travels to Rhuidean again chasing Asmodean. They can instead have those events play out in a more compact way. Have all the clans present at Rhuidean already, and go from the walk through the columns, the revelation and breaking of the Aiel, and the fight with the Choedan Kal that makes Rhuidean habitable, all happen over 2 or so episodes. That leaves time for the Stone and the Tower, before the climaxes at Rhuidean and the battle of Emond's Field.

Yep! And what he said still holds. You can do piecemeal social engineering, but if you're trying to social engineer a galaxy ( to be clear, Popper wasn't writing about predictions at Galactic scale, but all that he says only holds more true when trying to understand something like predicting the societal future of an entire galaxy), you're personally the wild card that makes the future less predictable. The greatest threats to Hari Seldon's plan are Hari Seldon and his interactions. The way to reduce that effect is by open sourcing the plan and having many more people feed into it, people who are from all over the Galaxy and have their unique biases and desires. Take a broad enough subset, and yes, you can get closer to doing that which keeps the future stable. This is also called representative democracy. As a 13 year old reading Foundation, I never understood why this wasn't simply the proposed solution. And by failing to engage with this, the show also goes the Asimov route of "great men with secret plans saving the day". Another thing Popper railed at.

The discussion here makes clear there's no direct path from Falme to the Waste that works. I think they'll head to the Waste, but only mid-season.

But even Gaal's criticism is mostly personal, not a systemic critique of his Plan. She doesn't object to the Foundation itself, or ask why it has a right to steer the galaxy any more than the Empire did. And if you see that your Foundation will go bad, and start it anyway, what guarantee do you have that your second Foundation will also not go bad? Do you build a third, even more secret Foundation? They're critical of Hari himself, but the plot is all about how good and deep the Plan is, and how it keeps saving the day.

I enjoyed this. Exactly. Given how bad the Empire is, setting up a Foundation that will employ the Empire's tricks to entrench itself sure makes it a weird "savior". Which is, hilariously, very like how American imperialism views itself vs how the post colonial world does, but again, the show doesn't seem aware of this.