Hugorfonics

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It was certainly a trope that the Romans had gone soft, whereas “barbarians”, either outside the empire, or else living in rough provinces, like those on the Danube or Eastern Anatolia, had tough, manly virtues, similar to those of the early Romans.

These were rough, shaggy, men of antique virtue, whereas many Romans were either useless slum-dwellers, or else upper class degenerates, who shaved their legs and grew goatee beards, and enjoyed poetry about molesting small boys.

Tacitus, however, seems to have had a rare degree of sympathy for those who Rome conquered.

These Romans are crazy.

4 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Chroniclers do sometimes talk about people's appearance. But they're not always reliable, especially since they rarely saw their subjects in person. Comments on hair colour are more common than eyes, in my experience.

Yea of course. But also cleopatara and boudicca were losers, and probably debeautified by the haters that history has come to call the Roman's.

Maria Theresa is almost modern tho and not a complete loser either, but I never heard of her having purple eyes

16 hours ago, boltons are sick said:

his tragedy which led to his fall to the Dark Side

It's not even justification, just an excuse. Frankensteins creature was born in sorrow and fear,  but to pretend that this serial killer is anything less of a monster is to misread the book.

Obviously Ani died a Jedi, and for me that's enough, his actions were unredeemable but the person himself, is always capable of redemption. That's the Jedi way

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Cleopatra, Maria Theresa, Boudicca, are to varying degrees, inspirations, IMHO.

There are records of Cleo and Boudicca's eye color? How?

Idk I think Maria Theresa had blue eyes, tbh the only times I've actually heard of purple eyes aside from asoiaf is Liz Taylor,  I'm sure the inspiration to GRRM

8 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

The kings of England kept being dukes of Normandy, so they were vassals of the French Kings, but it's wrong to consider them less powerful

Anjou, Brittany, probably some more places, Acquatianie. There definitely was not a clear cut indicator on who's more powerful, after all 100 years couldn't even decide who gets the whole pie. 

But William and his successors were clearly enveloped in this French style game where as Aegon really made himself a "nation state" which we see with England and France after the 100 but not before. (Although maybe breifly with the Danes, it's a shame because they weren't exactly literate so so much of history feels like guess work)

Nation states did exist tho, the best example is Japan but a closer one to this topic would be Hungary 

46 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

The Angles came from what is now Denmark, as did the Jutes (Jutland); I think the Saxons were from further south

Word, present day Denmark, but like 18th century Denmark, maybe?

46 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

But the Danes who started arriving in the late 8th century are a distinct people again: they speak a different language (from a different branch of Germanic, albeit still not too dissimilar), they have different customs, and they're, at least initially, pagan, while by that time the Anglo-Saxons were wholly Christian.

They speak something of a different language, no doubt, but probably so did the anglos and saxons (and Spaniardsand Portuguese) and the English may have been Christian but the stories of Odin and Thor and all those crazy Danes was probably still in effect.  I mean Beawolf is Danish. (Although so is Hamlet lol)

46 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

But the Danes in general got on a bit better with the English than the Norse did: There are a number of occasions on which Danes and English joined together to drive out Norse "foreigners". 

That's pretty funny, but probably not coincidencental, right? From this example,  the Danes and English clearly belive they're kin.

47 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

That William brought England back into Euorope is an argument I've heard before and there is something in it, even if it's perhaps a bit more complicated than that. England had turned away a bit from the continent after the Danish conquests in the 800s, but had a close relationship with Scandinavia, and the Norman connexion wasn't new: Edward the Confessor had been largely raised there (hence his apparent preference for Wiliam as successor: he never seems to have felt quite a home in England). And Edgar, the atheling, had been born in Hungary of all places. And, of course, English mercenaries were always welcome additions to the Byzantine imperial (Varangian) guard, so much so that Constantinople was a popular destination for discontented huscarls after the Conquest. 

Yea the world's always been bigger then what we thought,  after all they're all Christian,  except the Danes lol. I mean Hungary is really not that far and Byzantium has ruled the world for like 500 years, but still, like the Danes had the early kings of England's attention and vice versa, the conquest really made England into a French territory, or colony, until like Joan of Arc times.

https://youtu.be/j2SQxW5khMc?si=t7-BNyB8jszHrTnO

42 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Do unicorns exist in ASoIaF?

Allegedly. I'm actually pretty sus about it and am fairly convinced the it's just a goat...

I'd totally have some goat tho. Ok, but first item on the menu,  hard liquor.  Tyrion drank some rum that should work nicely,  but of course still keep the mead and wine flowing.  Second item on the menu, Sourleaf. I think that's like some type of chewing tobacco?

Bon Appétit.

14 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

No he didn't.

William was, more or less, the 15th king of England (it's possible to debate who the first one was, and there's one who often isn't counted). The centralised English government was established right from the start (indeed, across everywhere except Northumbria, before that), and was what helped to make the king of England unusually powerful among European kings, notwithstanding the small size of the kingdom. The ordered administration set up by the Saxon and Danish kings was one of the reasons England was such an attractive prize for William in the first place, and he did relatively little to bolster it.

But this government only extended across England. The king of Scots nominally owed fealty to the English king, but was de facto independent, and the king of Scots didn't control the whole of what is now Scotland: the western isles were independent and Moray may have been too. The situation in Wales varied but there was never direct control over all of Wales, and by 1066 most of Wales was functionally independent. In no way did William unify Great Britain: indeed arguably the island was more unified before the Norman Conquest than after it. 

Question, aren't the Saxons Danes? (Although for clarity I'd say the Saxons were "colonists" while the "Danes" were conquerors... although actually maybe not, I mean they'd probably call themselves colonists. So much for clarity. ) So, of course this isn't really true, I mean the power of William definitely reaches further then England, although its probably the other way around. William of Normandy was a vassal to Paris who in turn probabaly owed some type of allegiance to the HRE. If anything, to my understanding, William kinda brings England back into European politics, unified in that way,  which the Danes were I guess also trying to do, in their own Danish way. But yea, definitely not like Aegon (who did not conquer and unify all of westeros anyway lol)

2 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

I remembered Great Braitan was divided in three kingdoms: the Angles, the Saxons, the Jutes. 

There was the Hadrian wall to isolate the Scots, this reminds me of the wildings 

Very jumbled.  The Roman's called it Britannia, the three germanic tribes invaded Enlgand a while after Rome abandoned her and Hadrians Wall. The fact that the celts above Hadrians stayed autonomous is really just a  coincidence 

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Of course it's true.  The blame is on the Freys and Boltons.  No Lannister troops took part in The Red Wedding.  This odd behaviour of attempting to blame all Tywin's calculations on impulsive behaviour is just totally wrong.

Didnt you read my quote? Sorry for not responding to the rest of the post but its a bit of a pet peeve of mine, digging up relevant quotes that are just ignored. Please do because Im about to supply a (super famous) quote from The Prince.

21 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think you could read The Prince and accuse Machiavelli of being impulsive, you're that far off here.

Like, have you ever actually read The Prince? 

Quote

I certainly believe this: that it is better to be impetuous than cautious, because Fortune is a woman, and if you want to keep her under it is necessary to beat her and force her down. It is clear that she more often allows herself to be won over by impetuous men than by those who proceed coldly. And so, like a woman, Fortune is always the friend of young men, for they are less cautious, more ferocious, and command her with more audacity.

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Stannis can still sometimes make great burns and look as dour as one can possibly look at the same time.

He smiles all the time tho

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Tommen is, like, seven and then eight. He also enjoys laughing, is sometimes hilarious in an adorable way. He has potential,

I dont think so. Hes older than the girl? Shes funny, or witty to be precise. Tommen juts isnt. Like Keaven. Its not a crime.

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Kevan was pretty damn savage with Cersei.

"And his father too?" Or something like that? He can roast but its missing the punchline that the three are known for. 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Of course though, given how much time he spent with Tywin the mood killer, it definitely would have left a mark at him.

Same could be said about all of them. But I find that a sense of humor isnt always inherited or learned, sometimes it just is.

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

But the point is that cracking jokes is a stereotypical Lannister trait overall. Of course you will always have exceptions. Tywin is not suddenly not a Lannister because he hates jokes, and having one or two more members who aren't typically snarky doesn't invalidate the fact that a huge amount of them are.

Theres certainly a wit that goes along with being a Lannister, which I do think Tywin kinda has, he just dumbs it down for the bland audience that is himself. But Greyjoy and Baratheon are also very funny, even witty. I think it's more that Stark is just not funny, which is in itself very funny.

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Don't think there was a battle of wits between them.

Jaime in their shared scenes is funnier then Tyrion, although Cersei is funnier then Jaime in theirs. In this scene Id say the aunt had more and better jokes. (I do think overall the order of funniest to 3rd is Tyrion Cersei Jaime)

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Nah, they aren't like Tywin at all, neither are his children. This common idea that Tyrion is Tywin's copy is honestly overrated both in universe and outside amongst the readers. Sure, he shares some traits with Tywin, well, he also shares the fact that he has to breath like Tywin does, doesn't mean they so similar.

I mean his kids are far greater than he is, so like what he tried to be they actually are.

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

The Lannister siblings thinking what their dad would do doesn't make them like their dads. If I think what would Obama do, I will not become Obama.

Yould behave like him tho. 

7 hours ago, Dofs said:

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Jaime jumping to a bear pit wasn't a bluff. 

What would you call it?

Quote

Not until they were half a league from Harrenhal and out of range of archers on the walls did Steelshanks Walton let his anger show. "Are you mad, Kingslayer? Did you mean to die? No man can fight a bear with his bare hands!"

"One bare hand and one bare stump," Jaime corrected. "But I hoped you'd kill the beast before the beast killed me. Elsewise, Lord Bolton would have peeled you like an orange, no?"

Steelshanks cursed him roundly for a fool of Lannister, spurred his horse, and galloped away up the column.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

No, Joffrey is drunk.  Tywin is never drunk in story

Because adults can hold their liquor. Joff was a kid, it was a specific crazy happenstance moment that cant get replicated.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Tywin is one of the most calculating and considered characters in story, not impulsive at all.

Even his bowels are on a time clock.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

t's not impulsive or reckless.  It's a considered response that punishes a slight to House Lannister by punishing House Tully (Catelyn being the one to kidnap Tyrion) and attempting to draw Ned out of KL to capture him and trade him for Tyrion.  Private wars or armed conflicts between rival nobles were a feature of medieval feudal kingdoms and breaking the king's peace only earned a rap on the knuckles provided no treason was involved.  Remember that after Ramsay kidnapped, married and starved Lady Hornwood Roose Bolton claimed the Hornwood lands and we had Manderly knights and Bolton armsmen fighting each other over who would claim the Hornwood inheritance.  Ser Rodrik's response is to try and restore the peace and let Robb sort it out.  That's the calculation Tywin makes.

(Ser Rodrik stays at home writing nasty letters, he doesnt actually do his job when his prejudice gets the better of him and he rides out to "defeat" the Ironborn, lol)
Comparing said character to Ramsay is not a good way of convincing me hes not reckless.
1 kingdoms vs 7 is what Tywin went into, and he thought hed get away with it because he underestimated his opponent. Very compulsive. 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Now Jaime waylaying Ned in the streets of KL, butchering his men and then having to flee is entirely impulsive and reckless. 

Very, good example. Tywin did the same but on a larger scale. Jaimes thinking was an exchange of Tyrion for Ned, there was a calculation behind that as well.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Please be serious.  Jaime is investing Riverrun and Tywin is blockading the King's Road.  The only place for Robb to cross the Greenfork is The Twins and they are impregnable with Walder Frey expected to sit on the sidelines as he did during the Robellion.  Tywin is outmanoeuvred by the Stark-Frey marriage pact but it is hardly because he is reckless and impulsive.

I mean as I said above he completely underestimated his opponent, and then following the battle he literally hides in Harrenhal for the remainder of the campaign because now he compulsively overestimates Robb.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

All the stigma for The Red Wedding and all the blood is on Frey and Bolton hands.  Tywin wrote a few letters, made a few promises and carefully ensured his ends were achieved and that House Lannister is insulated because it took no part.  I think you have a non-dictionary understanding of recklessness and impulsiveness.

Thats not true, and Tywin knew it wasn't true which is why he kept it a secret, because he knew he was impulsively making the incorrect decision. 

Quote

"My lords may not know," said Qyburn, "but in the winesinks and pot shops of this city, there are those who suggest that the crown might have been somehow complicit in Lord Walder's crime."

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

.  I think you're mistaking his instinctive grasp of the political and military situation for an impulsive unconsidered response.

His grasp on foreign politics is unflinching, he doesnt bend to the times which I think is very impetuous and not calculating at all

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

We don't have much on them but I'm curious as to why you think Genna is paranoid, let alone extremely paranoid or why a potential misjudgment on Kevan's part would make him and / or Genna as recklessly arrogant as Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey.  Do you mean Genna can clearly see that setting up in Riverrun after The Red Wedding with a lot of Riverlands nobility inc Edmure held hostage is a horribly uncomfortable and exposed situation?  And that as Emmon's a bit thick and absorbed with pride at his new title she confides in Jaime?  I think she has good grounds to worry. 

Yeah, lol.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Still, what little we see of Genna and Kevan strikes me as pretty normal and in no way resembles the behaviour of Cersei, Jaime or Joffrey in their self-indulgent and arrogant excesses

Perhaps normal for this middle ages period, I think their constant obsession with worthless land is peculiar, but for sure that according to them is pretty normal. 
I wouldnt however sell Genna short, she is after all a Lannister.

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Tyrion can't keep his mouth shut, true, but he's shrewd.  We see Tyrion as Hand so we can see how he approaches ruling as opposed to Cersei and we can see how Tywin and Joffrey approach the same problem of what to do with prisoners after the Blackwater - kill them all (impulse, emotion, vengeance) versus forgiveness for oaths of loyalty (calculation, statecraft).  As Genna tells Jaime, Tyrion is Tywin's son.

Tyrion even more Id say, but to think he doesnt move with emotion is just a complete misreading of Tyrion's story. Being impulsive isnt always terrible though, and often like especially in Tyrions case, quick thinking often saves and betters his life.

31 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Victarion literally says the he doesn't understand the difference. This is why he distrusts laughter in the first place.

I honestly don't remember him distrusting laughter akin to Vik or Tywin in the first place.

Lol that's true.

Yea for sure, it's a little different 

Quote

His mouth would have given despair to even the drollest of fools; it was a mouth made for frowns and scowls and sharply worded commands, all thin pale lips and clenched muscles, a mouth that had forgotten how to smile and had never known how to laugh. Sometimes when the world grew very still and silent of a night, Maester Cressen fancied he could hear Lord Stannis grinding his teeth half a castle away.

But this I don't think is a really accurate description.

40 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Lannisters that love to joke and be snarky are Tyrion, Jaime, Daven, Genna, Cersei, Joffrey, Gerion, Tytos even Myrcella showcased this a bit. The two funniest POVs are Tyrion and Jaime and Cersei can compete for the third spot. Humor is definitely a huge trend in the family, and who knows how Tommen and Kevan would be if we saw more of them. 

We see plenty of them, they're not funny. They don't even try really. For example we see aunt Genna for a second and she out wits the kingslayer.

46 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Tywin, again, is a very atypical Lannister.

Not sure I understand what you mean exactly.

Nah they're all a bunch of mini Tywins, with his children being the most Tywinish.

Hear me roar and lesser beasts fall into line, Tywin does do that for sure, like by declaring war expecting Robb to play the kid. But Tyrion is very a hear my roar kinda fella, because of daddy. 

Quote

The boys are safe," he promised her wearily. "Gods be good, Cersei, they're my own blood! What sort of man do you take me for?"

"A small and twisted one."

Tyrion stared at the dregs on the bottom of his wine cup. What would Jaime do in my place? Kill the bitch, most likely, and worry about the consequences afterward. But Tyrion did not have a golden sword, nor the skill to wield one. He loved his brother's reckless wrath, but it was their lord father he must try and emulate. Stone, I must be stone, I must be Casterly Rock, hard and unmovable.

Cersei too is always thinking what would daddy do, even Jaime who's supposedly more rash then bluffs quickly changes when he like jumps into the bear pit armed only with the belief that Karstark soldiers will do what he wants

40 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Victarion is not hysterical on purpose though, and his distrust of laughter is, honestly, pretty legitimate, unlike with Tywin, heh.

Is Stannis'? Jon wonders about that too. (I say yes)
Vics got some great lines tho. This one being a particular favorite interaction

Quote

Euron stood by the window, drinking from a silver cup. He wore the sable cloak he took from Blacktyde, his red leather eye patch, and nothing else. "When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

Victarion could smell the sea through the open window, though the room stank of wine and blood and sex. The cold salt air helped to clear his head. "What do you mean?"

Euron turned to face him, his bruised blue lips curled in a half smile. "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak. There was something obscene and disturbing about his nakedness. "No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap."

"There is the window. Leap." Victarion had no patience for this.

Imo this has to be intentionally funny. 
Even a dimwit like Vik understands the difference between laughing with and at. Tywin though is even more dimwitted then that.

44 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Tywin being afraid to make a joke especially shows how much of an atypical Lannister he is. Lannisters are literally the biggest jokesters of the series, they in general can't help themselves but crack a joke or be snarky in general. Tywin is literally the opposite of his House's main trait.

Tommen and Keaven arent funny either tho. Some people just dont have a sense of humor. Although Tywin recognizes humor, like he understands Tyrion is making jokes he just doesnt smile at them.
And I think "hear me roar" is the main trait of Lannister. Which is really just bluffing.

26 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I mean, being laughed at and humiliated is not fun for anyone, that's normal, but only Tywin flat out adjusts his behaviour constantly to make sure no one could laugh at him. No other Lannister does this. That's what I meant.

Very Victarion/Stannis like behavior, but while they remain hysterical Tywin is too afraid to make a joke to save his life

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

You mean the scene where Skylar was having a breakdown while trying to act like things were normal after her husband had raped her?

and yes, that’s what happened. Walt absolutely was raping her, they hint at it when we see him in bed with her before the pool scene. That look of terror she has while he’s monologuing at her between kisses… it’s disgusting. 

I might be the only person who loathed and detested Walter White from season 2 onward, but I don’t care. He was the sort of monster that deserved a truly heinous comeuppance. Skylar was only detestable to me when she started supporting Walt against Hank and Marie. 

Oh damn, that was that scene? Tbh I havent seen that show in ages and maybe should give it a rewatch. I think its more that I started to dislike the show as it got less sciencey then actually hate the character. I was just using her and Binks as like a catch all characters, but I guess a better example would be like that lady from Mad Men who get electroshocked, not that I hated what she said or did, I just dont get how it reflected the story and thought it detracted from the things around it. Which I certainly dont think about Eddard. (but you know truthfully maybe a little Jar Jar lol)

2 hours ago, Alester Florent said:

You hate Eddard Stark, but not Jar Jar?

Lol, pretty cool comparisons! Both thoroughly fucked the realm through their naivety, gullibility and stupidity. Binks giving Palpatine absolute power is what Ned tried to do with Stannis, although their plans went haywire for different reasons. 
Gungan makes me smile though, I was raised with the fella, I dont think I've ever smiled at Ned (maybe with Arya), as JarJar would say "How rude!" Hes just like an asshole to everyone he talks to and is super judgmental like he wasnt a rebel not 20 years ago. His handling of Theon and stance on treating deserters like deathrow because of the barbaric law he implements would be sickening enough if he didnt brainwash his sons into believing that. (Luckly his kids are of the brighter nobler stock, although perhaps in this regard not Arya? Who wasnt actually present at all these beheadings which further questions why Bran can't look away?) But lastly leaving his children as bait in the lion den is Doran level of fathering and the girls should be thankful, although not to their father, for escaping Quentyns horrid fate. 

59 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Tywin is obsessed with looking strong and is extremely afraid of being laughed at and belittled. You can call it almost a phobia on the point of paranoia, he literally never smiles because of that.

These personal fears affect a lot what he does and how he does it. It essentially shapes his own personal rules. Joffrey is simply not that kind of a person.

Not sure there even is any Lannister like that at all, to be honest. Tywin is a very special case.

I disagree, I think thats a strong Lannister trait. 

Quote

Why couldn't you just come joust with us, the way the king wanted? You wouldn't have gotten hurt. What would that have cost m'lord, to climb up on our dog and ride a tilt to please the boy? It was just a bit of fun. They would have laughed at you, that's all."

"They would have laughed at me," said Tyrion.

Joff is a great example too, 

Quote

"Joffrey," she sobbed. "Oh, look what they did, look what they did. My poor prince. Don't be afraid. I'll ride to the holdfast and bring help for you." Tenderly she reached out and brushed back his soft blond hair. His eyes snapped open and looked at her, and there was nothing but loathing there, nothing but the vilest contempt.

"Then go," he spit at her. "And don't touch me."

The twins a little less so, and Tyrion has his reasons, I suppose Joff did as well but I dont think Tywin was special in that regard, even if he went into overderive with his permanent frown.

33 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

A Lannister always pays his debts, sure.  But would he have got himself in that position?  I sincerely doubt young Tywin would have got sloppy drunk while on a ride with his fiancee or that, if Arya had struck him with a stick, he would completely have lost his sh*t and started swinging a sword at her. 

Yea, why not? He is a 13 year old drunk, that invites sloppy. Tywin I think would have taken offense from Arya and Mycha and would also have antagonized the situation/ threaten to murder Mycha, where he might not have tried to start swinging his sword at Arya he certanily would remember that she frustrated and embarrassed him.
Tywin isnt Jaime like, true. But I think hes still impulsive and such.

37 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Tywin is ruthless but not reckless, calculating not impulsive.

He immediately goes to war following Tyrion's arrest which is nothing but reckless and impulsive. He attacks Roose allowing Robb to breeze right past him to RR, and is quick to accept Frey help despite the stigma it will inevitably bring. 
There are times like when he doesnt answer Baolns call or Aemons but that I think was still a decision he made, impulsively not moving, if that makes sense?

41 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Joffrey has an extra level of entitlement as royalty, a level of irresponsibility and insulation from accountability due to maternal indulgence and his own personality issues (a certain kitchen cat comes to mind).

I'm close to it being a consequence of inbreeding (after all Tywin married his cousin and their union produced the twincest) with Joffrey getting Jaime and Cersei's self-centredness and recklessness but then Tommen and Myrcella seem pretty normal kids. Maybe GRRM wants us to see that all genetics (and personalities) are coin flips.

I think the first part is correct, not sure about the second. After all, that's like half the characters.

43 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey all seem to have a reckless arrogance that Tywin, Kevan, Genna and Tyrion don't.  The older Lannisters had to endure a time when their house was weak and Tyrion has always been an outsider so they seem to have less arrogance and entitlement than Jaime, Cersei and Joffrey who have always believed that the world would bend to their wishes.

Genna is extremely paranoid (because she can see) and wrote down all her complaints anxious to complain to the first person whos not her husband, while Keavan from his 5 minutes of rule used it to send men to die by Griff by sending such a small force. Im not sure either of these guys are the best examples.
Tyrion absolutely cant keep his mouth shut and is one of the most impulsive characters I think in the series. Usually for jokes or silly escapades like pissing off the "edge of the world" but its also often quick decisions like to bring Tyrell into an alliance or send Young Griff across the map

18 minutes ago, James Steller said:

The fact that you’re one of those Skylar haters says all I need to know.

Lol. She doesnt really add to the story, is neither a protagonist nor an antagonist. Just wasted screen time really, a few times she seems like her story is getting wild but then it just fizzles out while shes back at square one. I remember I used to defend her until that swimming pool scene, and I remember thinking Is this the type of television im intrested in?
Its a shame really, they shoulda been like Succession or Black Sails and ended after 4 seasons instead of sinking into what I describe as bad television. 

Also now that im further clarifying stuff, I dont really hate Jar Jar lol

58 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

It's hard to imagine Tywin behaving in such a manner, even as a child. Not that he wouldn't necessarily have taken revenge on Arya and Nymeria (and probably Mycah too, by way of example), but he'd have done so himself, on his own terms, in a way that maintained his dignity.

Heavy interpretation on the word dignity. Tywin, like his three children, do what they want with no regards for the rules or regulations, Jaime a little less so and it drive him bonkers. Unflinching, forever bluffing, just really good at the game Chicken. 
So whats with the kid? He does what mommy says? But women have soft hearts, I think Joff, like the Lannister name he does not have also does whatever he wants. He used Cersei like a cyvesse piece, perhaps knowing she will demand a wolf. And Sandor as well, Joff knew would come for his revenge. So I do think child Tywin would have behaved similarly, perhaps worse and maybe less sniffling but Joff seems to have held himself together in typical Lannister fashion.

8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Hmmm. We have a different idea of exciting. I honestly don't like the extremely violent/sadistic villains in these books (or any books).

It makes an indepth baddie imo. Hes actually terrifying, like Dracula.
Plus Ramsay's style is like a perverted take on Stark magic which I think is kind of cool, in an extremely violent and sadistic way lol. Tony Montana said we've never seen a bad guy like him, but lets be real, Ramsay is a different breed

8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

As to what makes Roose more compelling. Well he actually plans things, while as Ramsay got lucky. You said without Ramsay, Roose would have nothing, but Roose orchestrated the Red Wedding with Walder Frey, and had already been carefully bleeding Stark loyalists through most of the books.

I dont think he did, I think he was just inept. Walder and Tywin orchestrated the RW while Ramsay cleared the North, all Roose has done is to sometimes pretend to take credit for it.
That Roose was gungho on the RW is clearly not the case as he would have remained loyal if Jaime the one handed knight refused to dance to his tune.

8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Roose legitimizes Ramsay and protects him from the consequences of his actions.

Tommen legitimized Ramsay and Roose went along with it to protect himself

8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Ramsay is literally going to cause the complete annihilation of House Bolton by the end of these books. 

Probably but like Icarus, or Mace Tyrell. 

8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

What makes Roose a more compelling villain? I could read a book with Roose as the villain and believe he could win. A book with Ramsay as the main villain would require tons of random luck in order for the character to not get betrayed or die immediately. Ramsay can only exist with Roose protecting him. Honestly, I am surprised that people don't hire assassins more often in these books in general, but specifically, yes, I think Ramsay would get assassinated, like quickly. No one wants Ramsay as their leader. No one. And Roose even makes it clear that all of Ramsay's loyal followers, are in fact Roose's loyals followers that Roose has given him. To be blunt, Ramsay is an idiot as well as a sadist. He reminds me of Joffrey in that way, only even Joffrey understood he needed to act the gallant prince sometimes (something Ramsay clearly doesn't). 

I disagree with a bunch of this, nobody wants either of these fuckers ruling over them. Roose thinks his silent rule will cow his vassals into submission while Ramsay, kinda like Joff, realizes he must put on a face to terrorize his subjects into submission. Ramsay is shrewd, he has shown that time and time again.

8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Honestly, though, I think it is clear. The main thing I like more about Roose is that he is not Ramsay. I think Ramsay served his purpose in the story (and actually there was too much of him if anything), and I want him dead. I've often felt that modern Hollywood keeps villains alive too long in tv shows. Villains can be hated, but they also must die, or it can be too much. Tywin, for example, dies at a perfect time. Perfectly executed by GRRM.I had reached perfect boiling point of my hate of Tywin, and bam, GRRM killed him. Perfecto! Roose can continue to exist in the story without me feeling frustrated, Ramsay honestly cannot make it much longer before it is too much Ramsay. I want him to die. I don't want to see him mutilate or harm any more people. I already hate him the maximum amount I can hate him. There is nothing he can serve in a storyline that would compel me from this point forward. 

Yea I see that all the time, I wish I could say I dont understand peoples anger and hate over a fictional character but after Theon conquered Bran's castle I too was angry and wished harm onto Theon, enter stage left Ramsay. 
So it's kind of funny that it's' repeating, but on a grander scale. So, question?
How much do you hate him? For example, I "hate" characters like say Tywin and Eddard, but I dont hate their existence, far from it I think asoiaf would suffer tremendously if they were absent in their fullness, now compared to like Star Wars' JarJar or Breaking Bad's Skylar, I actually do hate and dread the screentime they posses (the better example is Darkstar but I feel thats a bit unfair because of little screentime I dont know him like I know Skylar Binks) , so im curious do you hate Ramsay like the character or the existence? 

7 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Roose is a more interesting villain than Ramsay anyways. 

Why? He just sits around staring, he's like one of those Septas with their tongues cut off, Ramsay is infinitely more exciting. Granted Ramsay is one lucky son of a Roose but everything he's done is why his father is where he is today, if Ramsays lucky then what's Roose? Of course Roose attributes this to Theon because it's easier to make fun of Reek then it is to say thank you to your child, which is kind of funny but it still doesn't compete with the actual terror of his son.

Unless Stannis ditches his red hawk for a blue one, which is certainly possible however theres been no hint that that could happen, he will burn the Weirwood if he wins the battle. Further in twow he hints at his death or possibly a misdirect where he fakes and with these two insights, mainly the sacrilege he'd definitely commit on the protagonists shrubbery, Stannis will not conquer Winterfell.

6 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yes, slaves who are raped when they are slaves...are still being raped. Yes, it would make any John a rapist who is having sex with a woman he knows is not actually consenting to the act. Yes. It does. If the John does not know that the woman is not consenting to the act, then I guess no. It would make whoever is forcing them the rapist. However, 1,000% Tyrion knew, so....that isn't even a question you should be asking, as it is unrelated. 

Fair enough, when in Rome is still horrible. 

I still think there's levels between him and Gregor or Robert. 

9 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

What Bran is doing to Hodor is wrong. I agree. It's gross also. Particularly when he does it when there isn't even a reason to do it (from my memory, he does it to protect his group over and over, but by the end he just starts doing it). Yes, it's an evil act. Bran's path is honestly scary. He could very well end the series in the "evil" category. We'll have to see. Again, my reason for not putting him there yet..is I don't think he realizes how bad what he is doing is. He is...8 (8 right?). I really don't think he gets it. Tyrion is an adult man and knows exactly what he is doing

Bran was told cannibalism is wrong, told skinchanging into humans was wrong and did both.  In fact after Hodor is actively in displeasure Bran goes into him again.

But I just used him as a quick example, all of those I listed above, and plenty others, have done stuff reprehensible,  but their goodness still potentially outshines. Arya is a good example of this, but I think so is Tyrion. Throughout the story,  even in adwd, they remain heroic. 

And that's how heroes are. George Washington was the largest slave owner in Virginia,  Anakin Skywalker didnt just kill the men, but the women, and the children. 

15 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Here, let's put it this way. I think if Jojen or Meera found out about it, and then said, "Bran, that is wrong, stop doing it," that Bran..would stop doing it. If someone found out Tyrion was raping slaves.....and said, "Tyrion, that is wrong, stop doing it," I very much doubt it would have any effect on him. He already knows it is wrong. Someone saying that wouldn't change that. 

It may very well.  Tyrion is battling hardcore amounts of mental health, the crossbow bolt chimes in his mind like the minute hand. He's a fugitive who Illyrio describes as "nothing," and is shit faced drunk, given free reign after being cut off from liquor for the past journey. 

I think someone saying snap out if it and get back to reality is exactly what Tyrion needed, one of Penny's many great contributions to the story. But that's later

5 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He raped a prostitute. He did not have rough sex with her. She did not have sex with him, and then he had sex with her. That's rape. Rape defintion below for you : 

Rape is a type of sexual assault involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration carried out against a person without their consent.

That is what Tyrion did. Spot for spot. It's actually extremely similar to what Bran did to Hodor. 

She didn't really consent cuz she's a slave, true. But she did work at a brothel and was a prostitute. 

Prostitution even today often involves sexslavery with pimps cruelly forcing and threatening and all that. Does this make nearly every John a rapist? A chaoticlly evil one?

Hodor actively struggled and called out for him to stop. Next to Jeynes wedding night I think that's like the cruelst read in the story

3 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Like, come on man. Seriously? You really stretched it this far cause you mad I called your boy Chaotic evil? 

Yes. Seriously.  He's not "chatoicly evil" for having rough sex with a prostitute. 

It's an extremely uncomfortable scene, no doubt. It's not the same as Bran mind raping Hodor.

If your against redemptive justice then shouldn't Dany belong in the "chaoticly evil" category?

Imo this is all silly and grouping  characters in the bland world of warcraft fashion is exactly what GRRM does not want happening.

18 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Nope. Dany carried out justice as a leader of a new state. She also felt guilt for doing it. However, she was doing redemptive justice (that many in this forum are all about). Jon was saving a child from death. Granted, I didn't like that he gave Gilly no choice, but his intentions were good. Bran violating Hodor is 100% wrong, and a sign of going down a dark path...however, he is a child, and I'm not sure he realizes how wrong what he is doing is. I've already stated I think Arya is gray due to her darker choices, and that she has been continuously getting darker throughout the series, however most of her actions are done for vengeance/justice of wrongdoings that the other characters did (mostly directly to her or someone she loved). 

Tyrion raped a woman. Did that woman do something to him like Daenerys's 163 slavers who had recently indeed murdered the exact same amount of slaves? Did she rape Tyrion first? If he raped that woman, was she otherwise going to be burned at the stake for merely existing? Is Tyrion a child who doesn't know better like Bran? Was Tyrion enacting some sort of vengeance (as most of Arya's murders actuallly are vengeful) for something she had done to him? No, he just didn't care about her as a person, so he raped her. That's evil. Period. And I said Tyrion was in between chaotic evil and chaotic neutral. My point is his...actions are too selfish and too dark to call him neutral anymore. Sorry, not sorry, he is a selfish prick. 

Honestly, your examples only solidify how selfish Tyrion's actions are in comparison. Each of the actions you listed (except Bran's control of Hodor) was fundamentally motivated by either justice or trying to do the right thing. Even Bran's actions, he controlled Hodor mostly (from my memory) in order to protect himself and his friends (although he becomes worse and worse the more times he does this). Raping a woman...has 0 other implications. It's just incredibly selfish. Your only good example is the Hodor one, and I think we are meant to see Bran's actions as bad and misguided. 

Also, please list Tyrion's non-selfish good deeds in book 5 that weren't motivated by guilt. 

I'm not trying to go argue with your justifications, if you think anything above is fine in any situation then we're at an impasse. 

He saved Aegon, Penny and Jorah. With last two being is wannabee assassin and jailor, I can't imagine any other character doing that. Maybe Sansa.

20 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Yes. He is selfish and self serving. In ADwD, he rapes at least one slave woman (possibly two, as he threatens to rape and murder another slave woman in Illyrio's estate). He purposely messes up Aegon and Jon Connington's plans...for....reasons? Self serving reasons certainly. 

Through ASoS, I would put Tyrion down as chaotic neutral. But the books didn't end there, another book happened...and Tyrion was essentially selfish throughout the book. His own thoughts are often quite dark, and apathetic toward both his own life, but also the lives of others. Now, when Penny shows up, I began to have hope that he would even out again...but I'd say that has yet to be seen. Anyone who commits multiple rapes moves toward evil in my book though. 

Okay, here is a question. Why do you think Lancel is evil? Because I have a feeling it's for very similar reasons to why I think Kevan is. But, I'll hear you out before I decide how you can possibly think Lancel is more evil than his father. 

But your ignoring all the good he did in book 5 while highlighting the darker areas. Dany crucified 163 people, where is that in the chaos chain? Jon abducted a child, banished it's mother and all for kindling. Bran violats Hordor, Arya turns into frank castle.

They're all chaotic and evil?