Sordelor Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 He's already got Dorne's support, being Elia's son'n'shit, and if that doesn't work there's always Arianne he could marry. It's not that hard.And acutally Elia dying gave him more support than saving her. The Martells burn with hatred of the Lannisters, that's an easy ally right there.Then still Elia could prove he is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I don't remember if the books specify the timing, but I have the feeling that Rheanys was butchered before Elia and the babe. If so, while the girl was stabbed here comes Varys out of a passageway and tells Elia: you're next but I can sneak Aegon out. She agrees but she clings to the fake babe out of maternal protective instinct towards an infant. No, we don't have the exact timing, and we know the search for Rhaenys lasted longer, so I would incline that Rhaenys was killed after Elia. He's already got Dorne's support, being Elia's son'n'shit, and if that doesn't work there's always Arianne he could marry. It's not that hard.And acutally Elia dying gave him more support than saving her. The Martells burn with hatred of the Lannisters, that's an easy ally right there. As we have seen, that didn't ensure him the Dornish support because his legitimacy is in question. And if Elia was considered dead, then you also have the hatred... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 Then still Elia could prove he is real. Yes there's that.The Lannisters and their allies will call her a liar, Robert would have her killed, it's too much trouble for what it's worth. No, we don't have the exact timing, and we know the search for Rhaenys lasted longer, so I would incline that Rhaenys was killed after Elia. As we have seen, that didn't ensure him the Dornish support because his legitimacy is in question. And if Elia was considered dead, then you also have the hatred... His being legit or no would have been called into question anyways, here you are, questioning his legitimacy. (Sorry have no more cards to play. And i'm tired.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sordelor Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Yes there's that.The Lannisters and their allies will call her a liar, Robert would have her killed, it's too much trouble for what it's worth.Don't they say that to Aegon now? Or would soon do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfTheDirewolves Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Huh? What does Daemon have to do with his sons carrying on the lineage? It's actually quite simple for a male. And once again, with Maelys, only the male line died - the same as with Viserys, the official Targ male line died. Exactly the same situation. No, there were no female Blackfyre's apart from the girls the guys married. The whole house is considered extinct, Daemon's heirs only had sons. There were NO female Blackfyre's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 Don't they say that to Aegon now? Or would soon do? He's an enemy! To quote Cersei as much as i hate her: "Your enemies will tell any lies they can to weaken your claim to the throne." Varys's plan collapsed, Aegon wasn't hailed as a hero because Dany hasn't massacred Westeros with her dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sordelor Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 No, there were no female Blackfyre's apart from the girls the guys married. The whole house is considered extinct, Daemon's heirs only had sons. There were NO female Blackfyre's Go to their page on the wiki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 His being legit or no would have been called into question anyways, here you are, questioning his legitimacy. (Sorry have no more cards to play. And i'm tired.) There would be no doubt that Aegon is Targaryen, if Elia would have been with him. No, there were no female Blackfyre's apart from the girls the guys married. The whole house is considered extinct, Daemon's heirs only had sons. There were NO female Blackfyre's Are you certain in this? Beyond any doubt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 The cloth dragon is owned and being performed by mummer's. A "mummer's dragon". It doesn't necessarily mean 'fake dragon'. Only Qaaithe actually refers to 'dragons true and fake', but her advice has been dubious at best. Everything else is "mummer's dragon" which IMO is possessive, not descriptive. It's a dragon owned by a mummer, and who is a mummer? Varys. What dragon does he have? Aegon. Cloth dragon. As in, a dummy. A substitute. It's not a dragon. No, there were no female Blackfyre's apart from the girls the guys married. The whole house is considered extinct, Daemon's heirs only had sons. There were NO female Blackfyre's Awww... GRRM has deigned to honour us with his presence. Care to supply a quote? And, care to supply a quote confirming that there were no offspring like Glendon Ball? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sordelor Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 He's an enemy! To quote Cersei as much as i hate her: "Your enemies will tell any lies they can to weaken your claim to the throne."Varys's plan collapsed, Aegon wasn't hailed as a hero because Dany hasn't massacred Westeros with her dragons.Wasn't his plan to let Aegon and Dany marrie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I don't believe the baby switch, if it happened (still leaning towards fake, but trying to analyze every angle), could have happened while the city was being sacked. Because, as others have pointed out, it would have made more sense to rescue all three of them to ensure that Aegon's legitimacy would not be questioned. The only way it makes sense to swap out Aegon but leave Elia and Rhaenys in the Red Keep is if it's necessary to ensure that Aerys doesn't notice. Rhaenys was old enough that Aerys would have recognized it if she were switched with a fake, and the same was true of Elia. But he probably wouldn't look too closely at the suckling babe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeRhaegar Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 I stick to this. As a method, what is stated plainly is for real unless proven false.Otherwise, I could say I believe Asha is a dude or the dusky woman is Euron unless they are proven they're not (not that I believe any of those crackpot theories). man i agree and u just raise another question i had whats up with the dusky woman? my word and why do i feel its her that will kill euron or vic the stump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 There would be no doubt that Aegon is Targaryen, if Elia would have been with him. Are you certain in this? Beyond any doubt? Cloth dragon. As in, a dummy. A substitute. It's not a dragon. Awww... GRRM has deigned to honour us with his presence. Care to supply a quote? And, care to supply a quote confirming that there were no offspring like Glendon Ball? According to the wiki page, they are in fact, extinct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 wiki isnt canon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sordelor Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 According to the wiki page, they are in fact, extinct. You might want to look at the female line part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 According to the wiki page, they are in fact, extinct. First, wiki is not canon. Second, on that family tree, there are not one woman, we don't know whom the other three sons of Daemon married, and whether they had daughters... Which means, the tree is incomplete. Until I see the complete tree of House Blackfyre, everything is in play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio81 Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 No, we don't have the exact timing, and we know the search for Rhaenys lasted longer, so I would incline that Rhaenys was killed after Elia....In the series we have a direct testimony of another baby switch: Dalla's and Gilly's babes. In Sam's POV we learn of Gilly becoming very fond of Dalla's child, so why shouldn't Elia (although a princess, still a woman) be protective towards this child meant to die to save her son's life?And why should she run after Rheanys if she was hidden? She would just have risked to give her away, or she might have thought her safe (maybe being lied to by Varys who didn't care about the girl) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
complexphoenix Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 Regarding Blackfyres: just because no females are specifically mentioned doesn't mean they weren't there. There are a ton of Targaryen kings whose queens aren't named, and it's clear to me that there are a lot of female Targs who existed but aren't named in various generations. The same is likely true of the Blackfyres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chatty Duelist Posted December 18, 2013 Author Share Posted December 18, 2013 You might want to look at the female line part. The Female line does not matter. In Westeros, a man takes his father's dynasty not his mother's.Effectively, if, a big IF, Aegon is Illyrio son's, he's not a Blackfyre, but a Mopatis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted December 18, 2013 Share Posted December 18, 2013 In the series we have a direct testimony of another baby switch: Dalla's and Gilly's babes. In Sam's POV we learn of Gilly becoming very fond of Dalla's child, so why shouldn't Elia (although a princess, still a woman) be protective towards this child meant to die to save her son's life?And why should she run after Rheanys if she was hidden? She would just have risked to give her away, or she might have thought her safe (maybe being lied to by Varys who didn't care about the girl) Remember, on this board some people like to pretend its a absolute fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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