Immediate Future of Wildings/NW and JS will he be the same

[drayrock]

First off let's just get this out of the way...Jon Snow is not dead and I'm operating as if this is fact (because it is). There is a Melisandre chapter where she sees him as man, wolf, and man again in her fires. Foreshadowing doesn't get much more blatant than that. He may or MAY NOT be given ghost chapters but that is besides the point...he at one point will be ghost and then Jon again.

First some things to consider when determing the immediate fate of NW/Wildlings/JS:

1. The free folk displayed their loyalty to Jon literally like 10 minutes before he gets stabbed in the back by his brothers. They obviously have allegiance to him given he is the first LC to ever let them through the wall and basically saved their people. They were ready to go to war with him. How will they repsond to the NW pulling this mutiny...I imagine not well. And now they far outnumber the NW

2. NW commanders just, for lack of a better word, killed Jon largely because they thought he was making decisions that were not for the good of the watch aka letting wildings through. This can only mean they mean to do something largely different than Jon's vision which the Wildlings will not like. I can't imagine when considering point 1 and 2 that this will not lead to blood, especially without stannis's presence.

2a. If it does, it's going to be extremely obnoxious. Side note... I'm really over rehashing the same story of these people hating each other. Ideally they grow up and realize there is a common threat but if not, I hope there are some real consequences with the whites slash others.

3. Now considering Jon, when he does come back whenever this may be, will he be the same. Looking at our past examples, Lord Beric and Stoneheart, it seems that when brought back by the red god you are engulffed by your previous life's last moments, goals, and desires. For Lord Beric this is justice for Stoneheart is revenge for her family. Will be engulfed by a desire to retake winterfell and protect Arya? I doubt it, but it something to consider. I think having ghost as a place for him to maintain his identity to a degree before becoming a man again will help this. But it's interesting to consider if he will change at all, and how.

Given these things I see really only one way ofr the immediate events after Jon's stabbing to go

Jon becomes ghost and basically explores north. This gives George an easy way to get eyes beyond the wall without being cumbered down by character interactions and the threat of no food/whites (for the most part)/stores that a normal character would be hampered with. He may have interactions with Bejen, Bran, hardhome, whatever. Too many possibilities. Perhaps, he learns about his lineage during this time through Bran and the wiernet some way. I'm sure Bran will be the first to know but in any case he's north for awhile and eventually comes back down to be reborn in his body.

During te time in the in between the wall goes to hell with widlings going all around the north taking refuge and the watch completely shutting its doors to beyond the wall. I think this is the most plausable for reasons above and because it gives time for the other stories to catch up/finish their arcs like the two big battles. Also gives time for the wall to be given renforcments from somewhere. All the northern armies are preoccupied, so they can't really do much about the wildlings. Jon eventually comes back and is able to reunit most and gain other supporters from other places.



There are so many holes its not even funny but I'm mainly curious what will happen between nw and the wildlings with Jon gone. It seems pretty lame to have just wasted 70% of Jon's DWD's plot jus to unravel it all right after he is stabbed.

[grand old duke of stark]

Perhaps the NW second line of leaders, like Dolorous Edd, rebel against the plotters and kill them. Or maybe the plotters themselves immediately fall out and cannot put any of their rebellious ideas to practical effect, which is pretty much what happened to Caesar's assassins. Or Tormund, Val, others prevail and somehow lead the Wildlings to some sort of victory. I think they just want safety and are willing to leave the Wall behind in the hands of the NW (or what's left of it). In any case, the Wildlings would probably try to head south and might eventually meet up with Mance.

[drayrock]

Perhaps the NW second line of leaders, like Dolorous Edd, rebel against the plotters and kill them. Or maybe the plotters themselves immediately fall out and cannot put any of their rebellious ideas to practical effect, which is pretty much what happened to Caesar's assassins. Or Tormund, Val, others prevail and somehow lead the Wildlings to some sort of victory. I think they just want safety and are willing to leave the Wall behind in the hands of the NW (or what's left of it). In any case, the Wildlings would probably try to head south and might eventually meet up with Mance.

I guess south would be my guess. But isn't the point of killing Jon to stop them from doing this? I just don't understand their end game.

Just rememberd all the hostages Jon took so I bet that plays a role.

Mance isn't helping anybody. Ramsey's proly making him the new reek...

[Señor de la Tormenta 2]

I dont want to be a pain in the ass, but it is a common.mistake I keep seeing in this forums.

It was Stannis the one who made the call to let them pass. And it was his idea. Even before Jon Snow was elected as LC.

[John Hulboy]

Bowen is done for tormund an leathers will probably kill the conspirators.mel will keep queens men in check. The giant ripped the Knight apart as he was trying to steal VAL to show his man Hood.i think the others might already be there. But who knows anything can happen.hope ghost is safe.

[drayrock]

I dont want to be a pain in the ass, but it is a common.mistake I keep seeing in this forums.

It was Stannis the one who made the call to let them pass. And it was his idea. Even before Jon Snow was elected as LC.

Stannis allowed the first batch. Not the second batch of like 3-4 thousand. That was Jon's call. In fact Stannis was gone, and the queen "Sylese says it was my husband's intetion to unite our people. He will be pleased with your decision when he returns." Or something of that ilk.

Jon would have I'm sure but was never in a place to before Stannis came. Number one he didn't have the wildlings beaten and surrendered...they rightfully believed they were more powerful and could take the wall with no rules, so no truce was possible. Two, he wasn't LC.

[drayrock]

Tormund is the man. He better unload that member of his and do some serious wanker slapping.

[Señor de la Tormenta 2]

Of course Jon is the one who feeds and take care of them rather than just let them pass. And is the one who saves them of a certein death in the dreadfort.

[Ser Davos' finger bones]

To address point 3 I believe that Jon's rebirth will be more akin Dany's "resurrection" after she walked into the pyre at the end of GoT. In A Song of Ice and Fire Dany is the most clear representative of fire while Jon is the most clear representative of ice (in my mind at least) and this is why I believe we will not only see more of Jon, but we will not have him being brought back to life a la Beric, UnCat or UnGregor. We will see something different. What, I can't say. I know that there are hints in the text, but I think Jon's last chapter is purposefully vague. We haven't seen Jon's head on a pike, and we haven't seen him burned or buried or Ghost's head sewn on his body. This is a cliffhanger, and you don't wait however many years for the resolution of a cliffhanger just to see the guy fall of the cliff. You wait to see how he gets out of his seemingly-hopeless predicament.

To address the immediate aftermath of the stabbing, I've read before somewhere in this forum that in ASoIaF boars are often used to signal regime change (the boar that killed Robert, the boar in the fighting pits in Meereen just before Drogo took off with Dany to name a couple) and lo, who do we meet prior to Jon's stabbing but Borroq the skinchanger and the biggest boar Jon's ever seen. But when Jon gives his speech in the shield hall the boar is notably absent, which may signal that there will be no regime change, and Jon will remain at the Wall. I tend to agree with this analysis, and I believe that the expedition to Hardhome will be abandoned, not because it would have failed but because Jon will be out of commission and Tormund will be unwilling to take his wildlings North of the wall without the guarantee that they will be allowed back through upon their return.

One could argue in favor of any number of outcomes after the stabbing. As I've said, Jon's last chapter is purposefully so vague that it is hard to predict exactly what will happen. One thing that did occur to me, that I read in a few Winds of Winter articles was the GRRM stated that the battle of ice and the battle in Meereen would take place fairly early on in the new novel. My thought at first was "which battle of ice?" because there is potential to have quite a row at the Wall once Jon's loyalists discover that Jon has been stabbed. Of course, GRRM is most likely referring to the upcoming Stannis/Bolton confrontation, but still, I have trouble imagining that the assassination of the LC of the Night's Watch in broad daylight, even in the chaos caused by the giant, is going to be difficult to accomplish unnoticed. So your idea that things "go to hell" at the Wall is a strong possibility. Exactly how they go to hell may be somewhat of a surprise. One possibility is that Marsh and co. are somehow able to hide or disguise what they have done and maintain some semblance of control in the beginning, then things fall apart in a similar way to how things fell apart in King's Landing after Cercei became regent. Another possibility is total chaos, since there are lots and lots of undisciplined wildlings at the wall, fired up from Jon's speech and drinking. Then the man whom they were fired up to follow is murdered by his sworn brothers. It seems like a recipe for disaster.

I have to stop myself. This is a great topic for discussion but smarter and more analytically inclined people than me have addressed this on many threads before me.

Also, disclaimer: I don't post often, so if anyone is thinking of tearing my.. anything... off and feeding it to the goats, please don't. I'm just here to participate in a friendly discussion.

[dpt24]

Is Jon actually dead like Catelyn and Berric? His wounds seemed really bad and likely fatal, but perhaps (and I really hope this is the case) he did not actually die. Likely Mel and/or Ghost will be involved in saving him either way. It's just considering how badly things went for Berric and Cat I really hope it's not the same with Jon. Of course Mel is stronger than the guy who saved those two.

[Ser Jake]

Tormund is the man. He better unload that member of his and do some serious wanker slapping.

Fuck yeah!

[sarah.jenice]

I have to firmly believe that Jon will not come back like Beric or Cat. I would hate to lose his chapters and we don't have UnCharacter chapters.

Ser Davos' finger bones, I really hope Marsh isn't able to hide Jon's death. He needs to be held accountable for that one. But now that I've said it, how many "bad" characters are ever held accountable for the things they've done in a satisfying way in this story?

I always assumed the Wildlings would come out of the Shield Hall and see Jon bleeding in the snow and attack Jon's attackers, which would lead to a full on battle between those loyal to Jon and those who are not. With Selyse and Mel there, they might be able to calm things down or what's left of the Night's Watch would be decimated.

The resolution of the events at the Wall is what I am looking forward to the most in Winds of Winter.

[Matoro]

Everything Jon did breaks down. Marsh & co. broke their oaths (or did they? does NW oath say anything about "stabbing lord commander"?). There will be a conflict inside NW, with wildlings siding with Jon loyalists. At same time, dead things in the water, Cotter Pyke's fleet ambushed by wights is Eastwatch-by-the-sea probably under attack. Then there is Weeper, who might see that his only option is try get through the Wall again. The Watch will crumble apart.

Stannis will win his battle of Ice, only to hear that his queen and daughter have been probably died and the Watch is in chaos. And with the Watch gone, magic of the Wall won't probably help anymore. And then the true winter comes.

In my visions the Others and wights overrun the North and the Neck and bring their winter to the south. Stannis will probably die fighting against the Others at the gates of Winterfell. Aegon's, Littlefinger's and Tyrells' game of thrones will break down when the Others come south. Just while the all hope seems to be lost, Dany comes with three dragons to the Westeros, only to find ruins of the realm...

[John Hulboy]

I also don't see an unjon its not gonna happen he will heal from his wounds an be ok or bran will save him. there are strange an powerful things going down an if a dragon burst fronm the wall an saves jon I wouldn't be surprised jon is my liege. the winds of winter is gonna be so exciting .

[John Hulboy]

the wights are coming an I hope danny goes to jon but I don't see her making it til end of winds.im hoping jon gets thru stabbing an recovers when they go to burn body he walks out of flames as jon starkgarean it is realed robb made him king of north .he does battle with others then goes south deals with those who wronged the starks.revenge will be sweet.

[sarah.jenice]

And with the Watch gone, magic of the Wall won't probably help anymore. And then the true winter comes.

Old Nan said the Wall will stand as long as the men of the Night's Watch stay true so it is very possible the Wall will lose it's magic over this. Mormont was also murdered by his men so the brothers have murdered the last two Lord Commanders.

The Others have to breach the Wall or they won't pose any significant threat to Westeros. I can see Jon's murder/attempted murder (even though he's coming back) on the heels of Mormont's murder to be enough to negate the Wall's wards. Unlike Mormont, Jon was killed at the Wall so that might hold some significance, especially if his blood spills on the Wall itself.

[Queen Alienor]

I think that there will definitively chaos. Bowen and co won't be able to hide what they did, people are going to ask where Jon is so that option is out of the window. The wildlings vastly outnumber the NW, and the wildlings swore to Jon, not to the NW or Stannis. I think Tormund and co are going to kill Bowen and co.

Also, the idea that the Wall may be destroyed because the NW murdered their commander is very interesting.

[nickdog1212]

jon will be out of his vows cause the NW serves till death and he technically died

[grand old duke of stark]

Old Nan said the Wall will stand as long as the men of the Night's Watch stay true so it is very possible the Wall will lose it's magic over this. Mormont was also murdered by his men so the brothers have murdered the last two Lord Commanders.

The Others have to breach the Wall or they won't pose any significant threat to Westeros. I can see Jon's murder/attempted murder (even though he's coming back) on the heels of Mormont's murder to be enough to negate the Wall's wards. Unlike Mormont, Jon was killed at the Wall so that might hold some significance, especially if his blood spills on the Wall itself.

Interesting. But there have been other occasions when some men of the NW weren't true. Mance, probably other deserters, the Nights King, etc. So to fulfill Nan's prediction, I think it would have to be a general dereliction of duty--more or less like the mutiny at Craster's but much wider or complete.