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Sansa + Ned: What’s the Difference?

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Neds #4 It is not certain that Sansa tells him the truth, If she does tell him the truth, and He then does not say anything about it... Well then no one would have liked Ned after that. It is why in the TV show it is made clear he does not talk with her.

<SNIP>

Sansa #13 She does not attempt to kill Joffery. She had a moment where she could have killed him and let that moment slip.

<SNIP>

If you are going to use the TV show for #4 then you MUST also use it for #13, for the show clearly shows Sansa with venom in her eyes WALKING towards Joffery to push him, only to be stopped by Clegane.

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I've always said Sansa is Neds daughter the saving point for Sansa is she may have lost her naiveness early enough that she doesn't become the worst quality of her dad in thinking everyone is honorable.



Ned, Cat and Septa Mordane did fall short of educating those girls; though not on purpose.


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You're right, in general. The funny thing is, my first impression on Ned was awful. The man's first action was to behead the poor guy who run away out of very justifiable fear... And the "don't look away, father will know" quote, addressed to the 7-year-old boy didn't help either... It took me Cat's chapter to love Ned, seeing him through her eyes made him human.

But, that is the point, right? Ned got so many chapters in which people look up to him, love him unconditionally, whereas Sansa is first seen as some sort of Cinderella's evil sister through Arya's POV. Then her first chapter shows ordinary teenage girl in love with a generally bad guy... And we all came to conclusion that she is shallow, stupid etc... I think those first chapters in many ways have determined how we see certain characters. Just think of Catelyn, who after two Jon's POVs and that Tyrion arrest, is basically seen a monster, or the fact Cersei was disliked from the moment she stepped on the soil of Winterfell, because "the good guy" Ned didn't like her. And it is always the same... Sometimes the POV structure shows how flawed in design it really is, but then again, it provides that wonderful chance for the author to toss you from one opinion to another, to make you completely reevaluate where you stand. For the truth, the objective truth, isn't in any of those POVs, it is somewhere between them, or more precisely as Minerva McGonagall said "nowhere which is to say everywhere"

This thread gave us such wonderful opportunity not just to reconsider where we stand in regard of Ned and Sansa, but also in regard of many misconceptions regarding first impression, POV bias, and some flawed conclusions we deduce from it.

I think Martin made a point of Sansa being interpreted by the readers the way she has been in AGoT. It serves the purpose to contrast the rest of the Stark children who still have their wolf as well as to show a realistic contrast to the Disney Fairy tales. His background is as a writer for Beauty and the Beast. I cannot overlook this.

I am not quite certain I follow this... Sansa is created in the way as Martin said "a member of the family, others don't like too much" but I don't see many contrasts between her and the rest of them. There are some striking parallels between her and Jon, the same illusions she shares with Robb, Arya and Bran, regarding knights and honor. Even Ned, in AGOT, when he discussed his daughters, contrasted them as "sun and moon", but he also admits that "you have the same blood"... Stark kids have these amazingly similar characteristics that vary from one to another but that are rooted in their childhood, and their family values...

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If you are going to use the TV show for #4 then you MUST also use it for #13, for the show clearly shows Sansa with venom in her eyes WALKING towards Joffery to push him, only to be stopped by Clegane.

In the TV show she leans, after hesitation, yes, this is designed to soften the fans reaction that they had in the books. The same goes with the TV show not including Sansa betraying her family to the Queen. Just as Sansa's interactions with Tyrion, on the TV show, she starts to like him, only to be given the news of Robbs death. In the books she is boarder line cruel to him.

The Sansa painted in the TV show is much easier to sympathize with than the written Sansa.

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I am not quite certain I follow this... Sansa is created in the way as Martin said "a member of the family, others don't like too much" but I don't see many contrasts between her and the rest of them. There are some striking parallels between her and Jon, the same illusions she shares with Robb, Arya and Bran, regarding knights and honor. Even Ned, in AGOT, when he discussed his daughters, contrasted them as "sun and moon", but he also admits that "you have the same blood"... Stark kids have these amazingly similar characteristics that vary from one to another but that are rooted in their childhood, and their family values...

I agree with what you are saying.

What I was saying is that, Sansa's storyline in AGoT follows strikingly similar lines as many of the Disney Princesses especially the Little Mermaid. Betray your father for the man of your dreams, father suffers because of this, man of her dreams rescues father.

Except man of her dreams here kills her father... its like a reality check to Disney or Fairy Tales in general especially how it is over emphasizes her fairy tales romantic thoughts. The same way Ariel does in the Little Mermaid. Lol my daughter just said, dang dad she is even a red head...

and because she lost her wolf, she does not have that strength to draw on, to allow her to have heroic actions the way Arya does.

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If we never had Sansa's POVs I would absolutely consider the duty aspect of her actions. It is thought provoking and rationalizes two sides of the duty coin. But those conclusions melt in the face of Sansa's own petty, self interest, expressed in her POVs

Just because Sansa doesn't think about her duty in her POVs does not mean her duty doesn't exist and doesn't affect her thoughts and behavior. The fact is that Sansa HAS to marry Joffrey whether she loves him or hates him - it's her duty, that Ned has assigned her and did not relieve her of after the death of Lady. So, yes, she convinces herself that Joffrey is a prince and not a monster, because a prince is what she'd prefer to marry, and marrying a monster is a nightmare she refuses to think about. It's called denial, and even adults indulge in it - like, say, when they're with abusive partners and minimize and overlook their defects. And if adults do it even if no "duty" as strong as a betrothal to a king's son ties them permanently to an abuser, why should we expect a twelve year old to be immune to the impulse?

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Just because Sansa doesn't think about her duty in her POVs does not mean her duty doesn't exist and doesn't affect her thoughts and behavior. The fact is that Sansa HAS to marry Joffrey whether she loves him or hates him - it's her duty, that Ned has assigned her and did not relieve her of after the death of Lady. So, yes, she convinces herself that Joffrey is a prince and not a monster, because a prince is what she'd prefer to marry, and marrying a monster is a nightmare she refuses to think about. It's called denial, and even adults indulge in it - like, say, when they're with abusive partners and minimize and overlook their defects. And if adults do it even if no "duty" as strong as a betrothal to a king's son ties them permanently to an abuser, why should we expect a twelve year old to be immune to the impulse?

I wish I could agree with you, but I think this is wishful thinking IMHO.

It is easier to sympathize with Sansa if she is not petty and self serving, and you clearly want to, you like Sansa and you want to justify that. Her own POVs shatter that though. The lack of her thoughts on her duty are purposefully omitted just as Ned's are purposefully included.

Martin does not include those thoughts because they do not exist.

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I think Martin made a point of Sansa being interpreted by the readers the way she has been in AGoT. It serves the purpose to contrast the rest of the Stark children who still have their wolf as well as to show a realistic contrast to the Disney Fairy tales. His background is as a writer for Beauty and the Beast. I cannot overlook this.

It is much harder to have sympathy for Sansa, because of the contrast in Arya, I think Sansa is written with very human traits, but those traits begin an end with her superficial nature. Most readers, including myself, want to see her break out of this, to realize her mistakes, and learn from her experiences. Saving Ser Dontos showed us a glimpse of this. but her arc has been a slow and frustrating experience for the reader. I think this also by design. She has no wolf and her actions can be expected of a child where as Arya's actions rise above the average, for good or bad.

Once again we see someone trying to justify her actions based on interpretation, trying to give her the benifit of doubt, instead of evidence to the contrary from Sansa's own POVs. If we never had Sansa's POVs I would absolutely consider the duty aspect of her actions. It is thought provoking and rationalizes two sides of the duty coin. But those conclusions melt in the face of Sansa's own petty, self interest, expressed in her POVs

I certainly agree that GRRM plays off our expectations and stereo types, but Sansa is written this way in Stark (heh see what I did there lol) contrast to Arya. This is done to show how amazing Arya handles this at her age by comparison and once again shows us the actions of two children in desperate situations, one having the ability to draw strength from her wolf (a point made clear with how Bran survives), and one who does not.

I think looking at our introduction to Arya may have a place in this thread, but I'm very cautious about drawing the conclusions you're making about it off the bat. I want to say that I fully understand why you've made those conclusions, but I don't necessarily agree, and I'll elaborate on why.

But first, as a general message to everyone, I really don't want to move the thread into an Arya-Sansa debate, but I do think some of the issues raised here are apropos for consideration. I think it's fine if we consider our first introduction of these two characters in light of the issue of POV bias, but I really don't want to devolve into a "who's better" type of discussion or anything like that.

I'd like to refrain from positing too many conclusion about who has handled themselves better. As with the Ned-Sansa parallel I initially drew, I think our "introductory biases" play a large role in coming to conclusions like this about Sansa and Arya as well.

I think the post OAR made segues into this issue-- we're carrying the baggage of previous stories with us when we enter ASOIAF, and it's hard to ignore that. Not only are we carrying these stereotypical expectations from previous works with us, but we're also a modern audience who tends to reject formal decorum and marriage as noble goals.

We see the formality of their society-- much of it sexist and divided along gender lines-- and innately dislike (or at the very least, find it hard to sympathize with) characters who wish to uphold these customs.

I think most of us would scoff at marriage to a prince as a noble goal, and find Sansa's embrace of this to seem silly and trivial. We reject this as being a worthy cause because we're a modern audience, and tend to elide over the very real duty and work and that goes into achieving it.

What makes this even worse is the fact that Joffrey is particularly loathsome. Not only do we not admire Sansa's goals (which are highly noble and honorable in her society), but her future husband is deplorable. It's frustrating to us on multiple levels. But, bear in mind, he only reveals that ugly side once, while he was drunk. Sansa doesn't have a clue who Jof really is the way other character do, not because they are better judges of personality, but because they've actually seen it.

Before stating whether Arya is better at handling things than Sansa, consider that Arya walked into the practice yard and saw Jof's malfeasance firsthand. Not only did she see Jof being an ass to her brothers and insult Winterfell, but her brother Jon declared Joff as being "truly a little shit." Arya saw a side of Jof that Sansa never experiences, and never experienced the charm and affection Jof showered on Sansa.

Consider as well that Arya is constructed in a way that inherently appeals to a modern audience. Like us, she eschews marriage as the highest honor for a woman, and seeks to find a different path. This is something that appeals to us, but does this truly mean she handles her society better? When you actually look at it closely, it would seem she's handling it worse in that she'd be destined for a very unhappy future.

I really do not want to go off the rails with a Sansa-Arya debate, but I would encourage you to question how Arya's positive introduction may influence the way you've interpreted Sansa's aGoT arc as it pertains to looking at Sansa more negatively than Ned's. The chasm between the way the sisters come across plays into why we can't help but associate Arya + Ned = Good, Sansa + Lannisters = Bad.

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and because she lost her wolf, she does not have that strength to draw on, to allow her to have heroic actions the way Arya does.

Again, I am not following this. Both girls are separated from their wolves. Arya's heroic deeds, if we can call them that way, have no connection with Nymeria. I think what you wanted to say, but got mixed up, is that both girls, like the rest of the family, draw strength from their Stark roots. We have seen both of them doing that for whom Robb and Stark became synonyms for strength and courage.

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In the TV show she leans, after hesitation, yes, this is designed to soften the fans reaction that they had in the books. The same goes with the TV show not including Sansa betraying her family to the Queen. Just as Sansa's interactions with Tyrion, on the TV show, she starts to like him, only to be given the news of Robbs death. In the books she is boarder line cruel to him.

The Sansa painted in the TV show is much easier to sympathize with than the written Sansa.

Can we not use the word betrayal in regards to Sansa's meeting with the queen? Her goals was the fix the rift between her family and the Lannisters, its not her fault for not understanding the full gravity of the situation - its Ned's actually for not telling her anything. The TV show did soften Sansa a lot, which I don't really think is a positive thing. She comes off as a lot more weak-willed in the show, more of a tradition damsel-in-distress than a passive-resistant survivor.

And she was not borderline cruel to Tyrion. She was cold, yes, because she had no reason to think he wouldn't abuse and rape her.

I agree with what you are saying.

What I was saying is that, Sansa's storyline in AGoT follows strikingly similar lines as many of the Disney Princesses especially the Little Mermaid. Betray your father for the man of your dreams, father suffers because of this, man of her dreams rescues father.

Except man of her dreams here kills her father...

and because she lost her wolf, she does not have that strength to draw on, to allow her to have heroic actions the way Arya does.

Why do so many people assume Sansa was thinking "Ned vs. Joffrey"? She loved them both and wanted both families together-that's kind of the point of an arranged marriage. And she does draw strength from her childhood, from Winterfell, and her connection to her family, unless you're referring to strength of the supernatural variety. Sansa can't perform "heroic actions" because she monitored by the Lannisters every second of every day, whereas Arya is permitted freedom that Sansa could only dream of. Sansa has moments of quiet heroism, such as saving Ser Dontos, taking the reins during the battle of blackwater, refusing to kneel during her forced wedding.

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Again, I am not following this. Both girls are separated from their wolves. Arya's heroic deeds, if we can call them that way, have no connection with Nymeria. I think what you wanted to say, but got mixed up, is that both girls, like the rest of the family, draw strength from their Stark roots. We have seen both of them doing that for whom Robb and Stark became synonyms for strength and courage.

I am not trying to hijack here so I will keep it simple. Sansa is separated from her wolf. It is dead. Arya might have distance between her and Nymeria, but the spirit bond is there because Nymeria is alive. The closer she gets to physically to Nymeria, the bolder and stronger she becomes. Distance becomes a non issue later but that is for a different topic.

As far as your first comment goes. I am talking in story context betrayal, because it is, but the molesting thing etc... Seriously?.... no comment....uhg.

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Butterbumps. Do not forget though that this modern audience is from 20+ years ago and that Martin is from the baby boomer generation. Sansa's story parallels The Little Mermaid. And the more I look back the more I find in common with that particular story lol. I am also trying to be very considerate of making this a S v A thread. I only mention it as evidence on why GRRM wrote Sansa the way he did.



As a writer he has made it clear that he was unhappy with how LotR was presented. I do not think it is a leap to think he would view the Fairy Tale stories of his childhood and the modern times in which AGoT was written especially considering the similarities.


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I am not trying to hijack here so I will keep it simple. Sansa is separated from her wolf. It is dead. Arya might have distance between her and Nymeria, but the spirit bond is there because Nymeria is alive. The closer she gets to physically to Nymeria, the bolder and stronger she becomes. Distance becomes a non issue later but that is for a different topic.

I see this a bit differently, all the kids bonded with their wolves, Sansa just didn't get to show her warging ability with Lady due to her early death, yet Lady is with her as we see in the Vale in Sansa's thoughts and heart, all these Starks are Wargs per GRRM, he didn't say except Sansa because she has no wolf.

Her wolf is in her.

Porcelain, Ivory, Steel

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I haven't read the whole thread yet but here is my two cents.

First I'd like to start off with I disliked both Ned and Sansa in AGOT for the reasons you've stated. I really disliked how stupid they were when it came to politics.

However, the key difference between Ned and Sansa, the one that made me hate Sansa rather than just dislike her like I did for Ned, is the fact that all of her motivations are selfish and all of Ned's are not.

Every stupid mistake Ned made was because he was totally ignorant of politics and expected people to act with as much honor as he had. Even though he made mistakes he always had his family and friend's best interest at heart.

Why didn't he secure is children's safety when he was giving Cersei the opportunity to do just that? Because he expected people to be honorable and arrest Cersei once hearing about the treason, not turn on him. He never thought his children were in that much danger otherwise he would have secured their safety first. (Which to be fair he tried, but Sansa foiled his plans).

Why didn't he break the betrothal after knowing what Joffrey was like? Well likely for a couple reasons. 1. Robert was still his good friend and he still wanted to help him get away from the Lannister grips. That's hard to do if you throw his marriage proposal in his face. 2. He probably thought Joffrey was young and could possibly be molded into a better gentlemen if he had the proper ward. 3. There wasn't much he could do. He didn't exactly like the proposal in the first place but had to go along with it because of Robert and Catelyn.

Sansa however, is just a selfish, spoiled little girl. All her decisions are stupid, but they are also only in self interest. Never did she care about Arya or her father. She blamed everything on Arya. Never thought to try and better anyones status but her own. While Ned's head is filled with 'I have to get rid of these treacherous people for the good of the realm and my family' Sansa's head is filled with 'I hope I look pretty enough for Joff. I wonder if they will have lemon cakes. Arya better stay as far away from me as possible.' A big argument for her case is that she is a little naive girl, of course she is going to think those things. However, Arya is a naive little girl and acts way more honorably than Sansa. Also even being a naive little girl, Sansa should still have her family and friends best interests at heart but she doesn't. In AGOT I doubt Sansa would have cared much had Joff killed Ayra, or if Ayra dropped dead from whatever.

Simple as that
Both are stupid.
But Sansa cares about Sansa and Ned cares about his friends/family.

Also Sansa's POV in later books only served to make me hate her more. She has not shown loyalty to her family after all is said in done. She is just having a pity party for herself over things she partly caused. Her building the Winterfell snow castle? That was her remembering the only time she was happy, not showing her loyalty to her family. Her rooting for Robb to win the war? That's not her being loyal, that's her only escape from her terrible situation at present. Had Joff not turned out to be a monster I would bet that Sansa would be embarrassed of Robb and urge him to be sent to the wall, she wouldn't care for his well being. Her wanting the company of her family? Again not being loyal, she's just lonely and again remembering a time that was simpler. Had she secured a marriage with Willas Tyrell and he was a good guy i'm sure she wouldn't even give a second thought to her family. No Sansa is still not loyal and Sansa is still all for herself. She hasn't changed and she is still one of the worst characters in the series.

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I wish I could agree with you, but I think this is wishful thinking IMHO.

It is easier to sympathize with Sansa if she is not petty and self serving, and you clearly want to, you like Sansa and you want to justify that. Her own POVs shatter that though. The lack of her thoughts on her duty are purposefully omitted just as Ned's are purposefully included.

Denial ISN'T a conscious thing. If you could look into a person's mind and POV when they were in denial - like, say, a case of domestic abuse - you would not see their POV spell out the fact that they are in denial. You would not see them think, "My boyfriend punched me in the mouth when I spoke to another guy because he's an insecure asshole and he wants to control me, but I shall erase my awareness of the fact and choose to believe otherwise." They would think instead something like, "His jealousy proves how much he loves me, and it was my fault for not being more considerate; I have to try harder," and believe it.

It is not a conscious decision anyone makes to be in denial, therefore you wouldn't expect the process to be spelled out in Sansa's POV, because she's NOT conscious of the fact she's in denial.

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I really do not want to go off the rails with a Sansa-Arya debate, but I would encourage you to question how Arya's positive introduction may influence the way you've interpreted Sansa's aGoT arc as it pertains to looking at Sansa more negatively than Ned's. The chasm between the way the sisters come across plays into why we can't help but associate Arya + Ned = Good, Sansa + Lannisters = Bad.

I actually think that we should also include Jon and Cat in this equation, for the former disliked Joffrey immediately and we sympathetically agreed with him, and his first, isolated POV at Winterfell feast, and of course Catelyn who convinced Ned to accept the engagement. The thing is that through Arya and Jon, we see Starks as the heroes, the good guys, these great people who you want to be with, and then there is Sansa, who dreams of getting out of that promised land North is and abandoning them for the Prince, who on our eyes behaved like douche-bag. Then, most of us forget that some characters have limited knowledge about certain events, and we easily say "how she didn't see it?". So, Martin played us masterfully when he presented us first with Jon's and Arya's POVs that both feels like underdogs, and we all know that trope, right? Naturally, we sided with them, and their opinion quickly became ours. Jon's regarding Lannisters, and Arya's regarding "stupid things Sansa likes" Add to that Ned's reluctance for engagement and Cat, the same Cat who made Jon sit far from main table, who actually convinced Ned to accept the proposal, and then you have three extremely sympathetic and likable persons disliking Lannisters. Naturally, anyone who would like them, would look bad...

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I see this a bit differently, all the kids bonded with their wolves, Sansa just didn't get to show her warging ability with Lady due to her early death, yet Lady is with her as we see in the Vale in Sansa's thoughts and heart, all these Starks are Wargs per GRRM, he didn't say except Sansa because she has no wolf.

Her wolf is in her.

Porcelain, Ivory, Steel

I do not believe this is the case, but I do like the idea :cheers:

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Butterbumps. Do not forget though that this modern audience is from 22 years ago and that Martin is from the baby boomer generation. Sansa's story parallels The Little Mermaid. And the more I look back the more I find in common with that particular story lol. I am also trying to be very considerate of making this a S v A thread. I only mention it as evidence on why GRRM wrote Sansa the way he did.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, though.

I'm not talking about "modern" in the sense of he last 2 decades; I'm talking about the societal norms of Westeros, where a woman's duty is significantly different than it is for us. I'm speaking to how we tend to find courtliness and decorum trivial and empty, find marriage to the king an unworthy goal, and don't tend to think highly of characters who seek to perfect these societal roles.

I think it's easy for us to read Sansa's motives as selfish and silly, because things like decorum, wifely duty and becoming queen via marriage are inherently rejected by us as being unworthy and silly.

I'm not asking anyone to ignore their distaste for these things; I think we should reject these things. I'm asking only that we suspend our personal distaste for the value system of achievement Sansa subscribes to in order to understand why what she's motivated by is duty and seen as honorable. It's very much duty and a sense of achievement that's guiding her here.

If we update this whole scenario to our society, the parallel would be this: Sansa overachieves at school to become the leading cardiologist. Arya is uninterested in school and wants to become an artist in Soho. Sansa is pressured by her parents and society to make it to that position, and when she's almost there, she's told this dream is being taken away because of a dispute in the administration, and they're revoking her medical license. Arya, on the other hand, is indulged by her parents, despite the fact that when she's an adult, the hard reality that being an artist is an unrealistic goal and she'll have to take a "real job."

I actually think that we should also include Jon and Cat in this debate, for the former disliked Joffrey immediately and we sympathetically agreed with him, and his first, isolated POV at Winterfell feast, and of course Catelyn who convinced Ned to accept the engagement. The thing is that through Arya and Jon, we see Starks as the heroes, the good guys, these great people who you want to be with, and then there is Sansa, who dreams of getting out of that promised land North is and abandoning them for the Prince, who on our eyes behaved like douche-bag. Then, most of us forget that some characters have limited knowledge about certain events, and we easily say "how she didn't see it?". So, Martin played us masterfully when he presented us first with Jon's and Arya's POVs that both feels like underdogs, and we all know that trope, right? Naturally, we sided with them, and their opinion quickly became ours. Jon's regarding Lannisters, and Arya's regarding "stupid things Sansa likes" Add to that Ned's reluctance for engagement and Cat, the same Cat who made Jon sit far from main table, who actually convinced Ned to accept the proposal, and then you have three extremely sympathetic and likable persons disliking Lannisters. Naturally, anyone who would like them, would look bad...

I think we should not do this, I'm sorry. Sansa-Ned is enough to handle for one thread, but yes, in general this applies as well. Just not here.

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Denial ISN'T a conscious thing. If you could look into a person's mind and POV when they were in denial - like, say, a case of domestic abuse - you would not see their POV spell out the fact that they are in denial. You would not see them think, "My boyfriend punched me in the mouth when I spoke to another guy because he's an insecure asshole and he wants to control me, but I shall erase my awareness of the fact and choose to believe otherwise." They would think instead something like, "His jealousy proves how much he loves me, and it was my fault for not being more considerate; I have to try harder," and believe it.

It is not a conscious decision anyone makes to be in denial, therefore you wouldn't expect the process to be spelled out in Sansa's POV, because she's NOT conscious of the fact she's in denial.

Uhm no. again, not to hijack the thread, so ill keep it simple. Woman think about everything all the time. The fact that Sansa's did not think about those things when Ned's POVs do is done with purpose.

If Sansa actions are of someone in denial and her actions are similar to Ned's then Ned is in denial, yet he still thinks about his duty.

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I'm not sure what you mean by that, though.

I'm not talking about "modern" in the sense of he last 2 decades; I'm talking about the societal norms of Westeros, where a woman's duty is significantly different than it is for us. I'm speaking to how we tend to find courtliness and decorum trivial and empty, find marriage to the king an unworthy goal, and don't tend to think highly of characters who seek to perfect these societal roles.

This
I think the post OAR made segues into this issue-- we're carrying the baggage of previous stories with us when we enter ASOIAF, and it's hard to ignore that. Not only are we carrying these stereotypical expectations from previous works with us, but we're also a modern audience who tends to reject formal decorum and marriage as noble goals.
We see the formality of their society-- much of it sexist and divided along gender lines-- and innately dislike (or at the very least, find it hard to sympathize with) characters who wish to uphold these customs.
I think most of us would scoff at marriage to a prince as a noble goal, and find Sansa's embrace of this to seem silly and trivial. We reject this as being a worthy cause because we're a modern audience, and tend to elide over the very real duty and work and that goes into achieving it.
I honestly think that our values and ethics today are not what they were in the early 90's and definitely not what Martin grew up with from the 50's and 60's. Marrying a Prince was completely accepted as a fairy tale goal back then lol.

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