Sansa's Opening Move

[Hypnomagica]

Explain why there isn't any evidence? I could be wrong, sometimes I get a mixed up with these things. I do remember this happening though

I'm fairly certain that when arguing the evidence of a given theory, the burden of proof is on the person who says there IS evidence. That said, I go back to Loras, she was obviously infatuated and there we no defining moment where she became disillusioned with everything he represented, she just gave up on him.

She comes to hate Joffrey because he ordered her father killed and made her look at his severed head, not because she stopped caring about gallantry and good looks.

And I will once again repeat that BAELISH DID NOT KILL NED. Nor is there any evidence that he had anything to do with Ned being killed. In fact, he had the opportunity to kill Ned and chose instead to capture him, he could have slit his throat right there and no one would have done a thing to him for it.

[Another Locust]

I'm fairly certain that when arguing the evidence of a given theory, the burden of proof is on the person who says there IS evidence. That said, I go back to Loras, she was obviously infatuated and there we no defining moment where she became disillusioned with everything he represented, she just gave up on him.

She comes to hate Joffrey because he ordered her father killed and made her look at his severed head, not because she stopped caring about gallantry and good looks.

And I will once again repeat that BAELISH DID NOT KILL NED. Nor is there any evidence that he had anything to do with Ned being killed. In fact, he had the opportunity to kill Ned and chose instead to capture him, he could have slit his throat right there and no one would have done a thing to him for it.

You make a good point about the point of evidence. Didn't she give up on him when she realized that he had no idea who she was?

Joffrey chopping off Ned's head is why she stopped caring about "gallant princes," if I remember correctly. I'm sure I could find a quote, but it probably isn't worth the effort, as this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I actually never said that Petyr killed Ned. He only betrayed him, and possibly influenced Joff's final decision. Which is more than enough to dislike the man. Yes, he could have slit his throat, but clean hands are very important to him.

[Hypnomagica]

Whatever the quote, she obviously did not stop caring about gallantry, though her infatuation with princes may have taken a larger blow. And whatever her reason for giving up on Loras, she never stopped being attracted to him.

[Another Locust]

Whatever the quote, she obviously did not stop caring about gallantry, though her infatuation with princes may have taken a larger blow. And whatever her reason for giving up on Loras, she never stopped being attracted to him.

Fair enough.

I am now declaring this argument to be over. Good day

[OldGimletEye]

I'm fairly certain that when arguing the evidence of a given theory, the burden of proof is on the person who says there IS evidence. That said, I go back to Loras, she was obviously infatuated and there we no defining moment where she became disillusioned with everything he represented, she just gave up on him.

Are we talking about actually being gallant or the appearence thereof? Because, If we are talking about the second, I think its a stretch to there is "no evidence". I mean doesn't she describe Joff as being "bright shiny and empty" at some point? And how about her descriptions of Lothor Brune at times? And doesn't she also say that she doesn't know if she ever wants to be married? And what about whatever shit is going on in her head with the Hound?

Also, I appreciate you has enlightening us on the burden of persuasion and the burden of going forward with the evidence, but this is not criminal or civil proceeding.

[Hypnomagica]

Actually, Sansa remarks that he has "... a common face but an honest one." And her reasons for thinking unflattering things about Joffrey are more due to her personal greivances with him than any grand disillusionment. Above all else, she is still a teenage girl and is attracted to all the things teenage girls are normally attracted to.

To quote one of my favorite movies "It's biology, bitch."

[OldGimletEye]

Actually, Sansa remarks that he has "... a common face but an honest one." And her reasons for thinking unflattering things about Joffrey are more due to her personal greivances with him than any grand disillusionment. Above all else, she is still a teenage girl and is attracted to all the things teenage girls are normally attracted to.

To quote one of my favorite movies "It's biology, bitch."

So, then after all of Joffs horrible antics, she no longer thinks he is a "golden prince". I mean she doesn't come out explicity and say that she has learned from the whole Joffrey experience that looks can be deceiving. But, I don't think its much of an inferential leap to conclude that she has.

And I think her saying that a person with a common face can be honest means again that she knows appearances can be deceiving. I think she also says that despite Lothor not looking quite a Knight, he is strong.

At any rate, I don't think my evidentiary burden was very high since the original assertion was "no evidence", at least to the extent that gallantry is being confused with good looks.

[Hypnomagica]

I don't see how any of this is evidence. You're saying that her not liking Joffrey means that she has decided that looks can be deceiving but you'll remember that she later wonders how she ever though he was attractive in the first place. And Lothor IS strong, he won his knighthood in battle, his ability in combat is well documented.

What does any of this have to due with arguing for Sansa's supposed disinterest in gallantry in good looks. She stopped liking Joffrey when he ordered her father killed and stopped being gallant towards her. She has always been attracted to the gallant and attractive Ser Loras, there is NO EVIDENCE that she has lost her interest in either of those things.

The fact that she is willing to admit that someone can be plain without being worthless is not evidence of the contrary.

[Another Locust]

I don't see how any of this is evidence. You're saying that her not liking Joffrey means that she has decided that looks can be deceiving but you'll remember that she later wonders how she ever though he was attractive in the first place. And Lothor IS strong, he won his knighthood in battle, his ability in combat is well documented.

What does any of this have to due with arguing for Sansa's supposed disinterest in gallantry in good looks. She stopped liking Joffrey when he ordered her father killed and stopped being gallant towards her. She has always been attracted to the gallant and attractive Ser Loras, there is NO EVIDENCE that she has lost her interest in either of those things.

The fact that she is willing to admit that someone and be plain without being worthless is not evidence of the contrary.

It may not be a game changer, but it does support the overall argument that Sansa no longer is solely interested in gallantry. One of GRRM's objectives with her was to contradict the "princess and handsome prince happily ever after" trope that keeps appearing in literature, and falling for Harrold just because he has dimples doesn't support this idea. And yes, teenagers are attracted to appearance. That isn't false, and it can't be denied no matter what evidence one has.

But that wasn't the original argument. We originally were debating whether or not Sansa would fall for Harry the Heir, and if his looks would be the deciding factor. The man has already fathered 2 bastards, and has another on the way. Notice how a similar thing happened to Lyanna. (PARALLEL!) Not only that, but it was also arranged. Agency is one of Sansa's themes, and simply playing along with Harry doesn't support this.

Her feelings for the Hound (unkiss) is perhaps the best evidence one could ever hope for. Please explain why Sansa would have sexual thoughts about the Hound if she only wanted a gallant prince? It doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, to me at least.

And we have officially hi-jacked this terrific thread. I apologize Lady Hollow, I do hope you forgive us.

[OldGimletEye]

I don't see how any of this is evidence. You're saying that her not liking Joffrey means that she has decided that looks can be deceiving but you'll remember that she later wonders how she ever though he was attractive in the first place. And Lothor IS strong, he won his knighthood in battle, his ability in combat is well documented.

What does any of this have to due with arguing for Sansa's supposed disinterest in gallantry in good looks. She stopped liking Joffrey when he ordered her father killed and stopped being gallant towards her. She has always been attracted to the gallant and attractive Ser Loras, there is NO EVIDENCE that she has lost her interest in either of those things.

The fact that she is willing to admit that someone and be plain without being worthless is not evidence of the contrary.

I think the critical point is that she no longer thinks of gallantry in the same way as she first did. She doesn't see gallantry as being tied in with high noble birth or good looks as she once did.

I see what your saying here now somewhat, so I concede the argument in part. Yes, I do think she still likes gallantry and good looks. Ceteris paribus, I think she probably would want both gallantry and good looks in a spouse.

However, I tend to think that she tends to prefer gallantry, if by gallantry we mean bravery, courage, honesty, and trustworthiness, over looks. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that she judges a person's looks by how gallant she percieves them to be. Joff is the case in point. She at first thinks him handsome. But, after she knows what a creep he was, then she no longer thinks that he was good looking.

[Another Locust]

Oh my god, I've been mistaking the definition of gallantry for months now. That must have warped my argument substantially. When I said gallant, I meant "good looking and blah blah blah." My mistake, this may have gotten out of hand. That, or I haven't fully comprehended these posts before replying to them.

Her development over the course of 4 novels seems to imply that she no longer is decieved from good looks, which is why I am skeptical about her willingness to play along with Lord Baelish's plans. Harry just seems like another Joffrey to me. Gallant versus appearence, nobility, trustworthiness, and honesty seem to be more important, but I cannot be sure in the matter.

Edit: add the rest of my argument

[OldGimletEye]

Oh my god, I've been mistaking the definition of gallantry for months now. That must have warped my argument substantially. When I said gallant, I meant "good looking and blah blah blah." My mistake, this may have gotten out of hand. That, or I haven't fully comprehended these posts before replying to them.

Don't feel bad. I think I was getting them slightly confused myself. I do think we must analytically separate what we mean by "gallant" from "good looking" if we are going to discuss them in the context of Sansa.

[Another Locust]

Don't feel bad. I think I was getting them slightly confused myself. I do think we must analytically separate what we mean by "gallant" from "good looking" if we are going to discuss them in the context of Sansa.

Understanding the definition of the argument is quite important at the end of the day, I must say. In Sansa's shoes, I would want someone to be trustworthy and honest. And her character development does support her preference over personality, like many people. Lothor Brune is a good example, like Sandor. Both already mentioned. I'll have to re-read every Sansa chapter if I want to have a solid argument.

[Hypnomagica]

All I'm saying is that Harrold is very attractive, skilled at combat, sexually experienced, well born but not spoiled by any means, and generally in position to be the love Sansa has never quite gotten to know.

I think it quite likely that Sansa will fall for him. Unless Sandor somehow shows up and that ridiculous pairing becomes a thing.

[Another Locust]

Sorry, clarification is very important with these things. Just noticed your edit and accidently made a new post. My mistake.

Anyway, I'm afraid that you could be write about this, but I don't think her development will allow this. Having Sansa fall in love with the gallant Harrold Hardyng would contradict her character progress, and it would be dissapointing in my opinion.

And the Hound isn't showing up anytime soon, unfortunate I know. He's either dead, or stuck at a monastery where speaking is forbidden. I could argue that he's not even alive.

[Another Locust]

Double post!

[Hypnomagica]

"Lothor Brune" was a typo, I'm afraid. I meant Harrold. Pardon me.

That said, I would be perfectly happy to never head of Sandor Clegane but I doubt that is meant to be. Hopefully he ends up on the wall where he can put his fighting skills to good use.

Seriously though, if those two ever hook up, I may vomit.

[Another Locust]

"Lothor Brune" was a typo, I'm afraid. I meant Harrold. Pardon me.

That said, I would be perfectly happy to never head of Sandor Clegane but I doubt that is meant to be. Hopefully he ends up on the wall where he can put his fighting skills to good use.

Seriously though, if those two ever hook up, I may vomit.

I'm gonna have to agree somewhat, but I don't follow Sansa's arc for the romance in it. It's the "growing of age" thing that I'm more concerned about, and Harry is a major part of the transformation form youth to maturity. If she manages to fall for him like how she fell for Joffrey, I would be extremely disappointing. Rest assured, Sansa will not be seeing the Hound in the foreseeable future.

[Hypnomagica]

I do not care about romance either, that's why the idea of Sansa and Sandor falling in love annoys me, the romance of it all sickens me.

And call it a "coming of age" all you want but Sansa is still a teenage girl and she is still pray to all the emotions and hormones that begets. If they marry, they will fuck, if he is good in bed, she will grow attached.

Oxytocin and all that jazz.

That said, you can still hope that she experiences more of an adult love like the one Danny had for Drogo.

Hah! Sansa calling Harrold her "sun and stars".

[OldGimletEye]

All I'm saying is that Harrold is very attractive, skilled at combat, sexually experienced, well born but not spoiled by any means, and generally in position to be the love Sansa has never quite gotten to know.

I think it quite likely that Sansa will fall for him. Unless Sandor somehow shows up and that ridiculous pairing becomes a thing.

I think this a bit premature at this point. I think it will depend on how "gallant" Harry is and his general character. And I think we just don't know yet. The fact he has several bastards may not bode well for him in Sansa's eyes. We'll see though I guess.