Balon attacking the North

[Lord Reaver]

The ironborn is the reason war, disease and taxes exists appearantly.

Indeed, and how dared Balon fight for such a dastardly cause as independence ? He deserved to have his entire family wiped for that and should have showered the people who killed/kidnapped his sons with kisses and roses !

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Another very strong argument. The Stark are weak. If the Stark beat you, they take hostages and leave. If Tywin beats you, he kills all your familly and even the bastard's babies, Sack your entire land and destroy your castles completely..

Very fair argument, like i said, the risk is way higher, but what does taking the north and claiming independence do?

First, you piss off all the North and you also piss off the Crown, because they don't want another kingdom rebelling, so either way Tywin is pissed and deals with you eventually. (Unless, he gets show by a dwarf while taking a shit)

[Leonardo]

He could have at least waited a while for the Crown to ask him for help. The IT needed desperate help against Robb, and they were the ones most directly threatening the North. Once Tywin asked for Balon's help, Balon could have asked for much and more in return. But no, Balon is such a cool guy that he gave the gift of attacking Robb Stark for free.

He couldn't have asked for a crown, nor would he.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Indeed, and how dared Balon fight for such a dastardly cause as independence ? He deserved to have his entire family wiped for that and should have showered the people who killed/kidnapped his sons with kisses and roses !

I don't think it's his cause we are debating, but more which options he had at the time, stop playing the victim card just because we disagree with how he did it.

Most in this thread are actually saying options on how he could succeed, if anything, i wanted him to succeed.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Another very strong argument. The Stark are weak. If the Stark beat you, they take hostages and leave. If Tywin beats you, he kills all your familly and even the bastard's babies, Sack your entire land and destroy your castles completely..

You mean the guy who's fighting Robb Stark, Edmure Tully, Mace Tyrell, and Renly and Stannis Baratheon at the same time? Balon must've been Tywin's #1 fan if he thought Tywin was somehow going to come out on top against that many enemies.

[Dany Girl]

No, he wasn't a complete idiot. You cannot give another man a crown and name him King. Robb had no right to do that. And he didn't doom his people.

Balon didn't kill his own son, no.

The North ARE the enemy. At least for the ironborn. Would you rather attack a strong alliance (Lannister+Tyrell) or the weak North? If he had defeated the North (who was being regarded as traitors) he could always bend knee to Kings Landing later if he wanted.

Genocide, eh? On what facts do you base those on? Sounds pretty damn stupid to me.

Robb wouldn't be "giving" him anything. They would be allies to break free of the Crown together and back each other when needed- like allies do. Balon would earn his own independence, Robb would earn his own.

[MasterJack]

You mean the guy who's fighting Robb Stark, Edmure Tully, Mace Tyrell, and Renly and Stannis Baratheon at the same time? Balon must've been Tywin's #1 fan if he thought Tywin was somehow going to come out on top against that many enemies.

He has the best reputation (with Stannis who at that time had very few men)..

[Fat King Robert]

Yes, petty. Since he tried to rebel and Robert's forces kicked his ass and killed his sons. His issue should have been with the Baratheons, not Starks. Starks treated his remaining son well and Ned had no choice when he was made warden of Theon. His issues with the Starks is stupid and petty because his real issues should have been with the crown (Joffery) and possibly Stannis sense Stannis lead one of the defining attacks. Ned, even if he has issue with Ned, is dead. Robb was a baby at the rebellion and has treated Theon like a brother.

More importantly attacking the North does not get to grant the Islands independence. They should be fighting against the people who actually hold their independence, not people who make no difference. Allying with the North against the South gives them the best chance for long term independence.

Ned offered himself willingly to become warden of Theon, so that is wrong.

We don't know what Balon fully intended, since he was murdered. Attacking the south wouldn't give them their independence either, so what's your point? Sure, the boy king of the north would supposedly "give" a crown to Balon, but what man would be respected for that, especially a man who's ironborn? It goes against their culture. The North was weak at the time. As I mentioned before, the ironborn has always quarrelled with the north. They lost the bear islands to the north etc.

[The Frosted King]

This topic never goes anywhere but circles.

On one hand you've got the risk big, but win big crowd who hates Balon for dooming not one but two factions in the war.

The other crowd moans about smallest risk, moderate gains, but doesn't ever admit that ultimately their stance is one of inevitable defeat.

Imo, Balon was an idiot, and his brother Euron proved it by promptly voiding everything his eldest brother did in his first order of business as king.

He could've sent a portion of men back north to hold Balon's "gains", but he said to hell with that.

I don't think it takes Stark bias to see the wisdom of possible victory over an inevitable defeat.

[Dany Girl]

Indeed, and how dared Balon fight for such a dastardly cause as independence ? He deserved to have his entire family wiped for that and should have showered the people who killed/kidnapped his sons with kisses and roses !

Balon has every right to fight for independence, but why is he fighting someone who he's not beholden to? The Iron Islands are not part of the North, they're part of the 7ks. Fight the real enemy, not the guy wanting to be your ally!

[MyLittleFinger]

I don't think it's his cause we are debating, but more which options he had at the time, stop playing the victim card just because we disagree with how he did it.

Most in this thread are actually saying options on how he could succeed, if anything, i wanted him to succeed.

I enjoy our debate friend :cheers:

[JesterX]

Robb wouldn't be "giving" him anything. They would be allies to break free of the Crown together and back each other when needed- like allies do. Balon would earn his own independence, Robb would earn his own.

Robb should've worded his message to Balon exactly that way. Instead he framed it as giving Balon the crown. Not that Balon was inclined to join Robb anyway, but the letter wouldn't have offended him as much.

[Lord Reaver]

I don't think it's his cause we are debating, but more which options he had at the time, stop playing the victim card just because we disagree with how he did it.

Most in this thread are actually saying options on how he could succeed, if anything, i wanted him to succeed.

I'm not playing the victim card, I'm pointing out how ridiculous that line of thought is. And it was raised here in this thread, which makes it called for.

Balon did succeed. His attack was going as planned when he got hit by deus ex machina.

[MasterJack]

But as I said his ultimate bad move was crowning himself. If he did everything he did without crowning himself. He would be a great friend to the crown(and even if Renly or Stannis took it) and they would almost have no choice to give them the lands the IB conquered (or at the very least no punishements) in the North once Robb is defeated

[Good Guy Garlan]

He has the best reputation (with Stannis who at that time had very few men)..

And the most enemies, which is what should have mattered. That's a case of the self-fulfilling prophecy, I think: Balon didn't attack Tywin because he feared he would win, but him not attacking Tywin was what allowed the Lannisters to win

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

I enjoy our debate friend :cheers:

Good to debate without things getting personal. :cheers:

I've said my piece, some will disagree and that's okay. :D

[Winnief]

You mean the guy who's fighting Robb Stark, Edmure Tully, Mace Tyrell, and Renly and Stannis Baratheon at the same time? Balon must've been Tywin's #1 fan if he thought Tywin was somehow going to come out on top against that many enemies.

LOL. The only thing that saved Tywin and the Lannister's was Tyrion's idea for the Tyrell alliance...and I for one wonder whether that alliance EVER would have taken place, with IB and North fighting together...I think the prospect of that actually might have caused Mace to take Olenna's advice and stay the hell out of the whole thing.

Indeed, and how dared Balon fight for such a dastardly cause as independence ? He deserved to have his entire family wiped for that and should have showered the people who killed/kidnapped his sons with kisses and roses !

That last rebellion wasn't just about "independence." It was about bringing back the Old Way and letting the IB rape and pillage the greenlands as they did in the past. Strangely, enough the mainlander's had a problem with letting the IB rape, pillage, and take their smallfolk as salt wives and thralls, and fought back which was SO unfair to Balon and his sons. Really, my heart bleeds for the IB on that one...

Balon did succeed. His attack was going as planned when he got hit by deus ex machina.

How was it succeeding? As Asha pointed out at the Kingsmoot, a lot of IB and Northern blood had been spilled...but all the IB got for their trouble was pine cones and seashells.

[Dany Girl]

Ned offered himself willingly to become warden of Theon, so that is wrong.

We don't know what Balon fully intended, since he was murdered. Attacking the south wouldn't give them their independence either, so what's your point? Sure, the boy king of the north would supposedly "give" a crown to Balon, but what man would be respected for that, especially a man who's ironborn? It goes against their culture. The North was weak at the time. As I mentioned before, the ironborn has always quarrelled with the north. They lost the bear islands to the north etc.

Since fighting the North wouldn't earn them independence, why fight them? The boy king wasn't handing him shit. He was offering an alliance against the actual people who have their independence to gain mutual independence and have an ally in case the crown (the real threat) tries to retake them. That's what allies is all about. Instead Balon set it up to be the Iron Islands against the entire continent. That's so unbelievably stupid.

[MyLittleFinger]

LOL. The only thing that saved Tywin and the Lannister's was Tyrion's idea for the Tyrell alliance...and I for one wonder whether that alliance EVER would have taken place, with IB and North fighting together...I think the prospect of that actually might have caused Mace to take Olenna's advice and stay the hell out of the whole thing.

That last rebellion wasn't just about "independence." It was about bringing back the Old Way and letting the IB rape and pillage the greenlands as they did in the past. Strangely, enough the mainlander's had a problem with letting the IB rape, pillage, and take their smallfolk as salt wives and thralls, and fought back which was SO unfair to Balon and his sons. Really, my heart bleeds for the IB on that one...

You mean Littlefinger and his silver tongue :drool:

[MyaStoned]

No, he wasn't a complete idiot. You cannot give another man a crown and name him King. Robb had no right to do that. And he didn't doom his people.

Balon didn't kill his own son, no.

The North ARE the enemy. At least for the ironborn. Would you rather attack a strong alliance (Lannister+Tyrell) or the weak North? If he had defeated the North (who was being regarded as traitors) he could always bend knee to Kings Landing later if he wanted.

Genocide, eh? On what facts do you base those on? Sounds pretty damn stupid to me.

It's not genocide, because they aren't a race. They're a specific group, not a race. It's like saying wiping out all Nazis or all racists or all kiddie-diddlers is genocide. It's not. Those aren't races, they're groups of people defined entirely by behavior.

Balon refused a generous offer in order to do something that will result - and could only have ever resulted - in his people never having a situation one-half (or even one-fourth) as good as the situation given in the offer he refused.

And yes, when you start a war (a rebellion) and your sons die in it, you killed your sons, or they killed themselves. Or war killed them (but YOUR war). The people who killed them are not responsible for their deaths.