Balon attacking the North

[Fat King Robert]

Robb wouldn't be "giving" him anything. They would be allies to break free of the Crown together and back each other when needed- like allies do. Balon would earn his own independence, Robb would earn his own.

Would they? That's not how it's worded.

"The pup says nothing about a reward. Only that you speak for him, and I am to listen, and give him my sails and swords, and in return he will give me a crown. He will give me a crown..."

"A poor choice of words, what is meant is-"

"What is meant is what is said. The boy will give me a crown. And what is given can be taken away"

[Lord Reaver]

That last rebellion wasn't just about "independence." It was about bringing back the Old Way and letting the IB rape and pillage the greenlands as they did in the past. Strangely, enough the mainlander's had a problem with letting the IB rape, pillage, and take their smallfolk as salt wives and thralls, and fought back which was SO unfair to Balon and his sons. Really, my heart bleeds for the IB on that one...

It was war. Of course the IB unleashed the Old Way. Rape and pillage happens just as much when the greenlanders wage war.

Fighting back doesn't include invading and subjugating, that's an aggressive move, if the greenlanders had just defended themselves against raids, they would have stopped (as they did in the real world) because they would cost more than they would give.

[Good Guy Garlan]

LOL. The only thing that saved Tywin and the Lannister's was Tyrion's idea for the Tyrell alliance...and I for one wonder whether that alliance EVER would have taken place, with IB and North fighting together...I think the prospect of that actually might have caused Mace to take Olenna's advice and stay the hell out of the whole thing.

I agree. Just the symbolic nature of Lannisport falling under the Ironborn would have been a red flag for the Tyrells, saying "this ship is sinking, go find another one"

[MyLittleFinger]

Since fighting the North wouldn't earn them independence, why fight them? The boy king wasn't handing him shit. He was offering an alliance against the actual people who have their independence to gain mutual independence and have an ally in case the crown (the real threat) tries to retake them. That's what allies is all about. Instead Balon set it up to be the Iron Islands against the entire continent. That's so unbelievably stupid.

If King Renly wins (aka at the time of this plan he has the entire Reach and Stormlands) would he be inclined to reward "King Balon" who helped conquer the Western shore of the North? Maybe. If Renly decided to fight him, hell, Balon is down with being drowned and rising harder and stronger, he did it before and the realm knows Renly to be of a similar mold to Robert (without the warrior aspect) as opposed to Stannis or Tywin.

[MasterJack]

This topic never goes anywhere but circles.

On one hand you've got the risk big, but win big crowd who hates Balon for dooming not one but two factions in the war.

The other crowd moans about smallest risk, moderate gains, but doesn't ever admit that ultimately their stance is one of inevitable defeat.

Imo, Balon was an idiot, and his brother Euron proved it by promptly voiding everything his eldest brother did in his first order of business as king.

He could've sent a portion of men back north to hold Balon's "gains", but he said to hell with that.

I don't think it takes Stark bias to see the wisdom of possible victory over an inevitable defeat.

Robb himself had an inevitable defeat. independance was out of question for Tywin/Stannis and even Renly who would let him keep his crown but still froce him to pay taxes to the crown. Even if Robb won, sooner or later the crown would have come to punish him. Balon and Robb had no way of knowing the situation as more complicated that what it looked like. They didnt know about Euron, fAegon, Dany, Varys, LF Cercei craziness, Tyrell treachery and Dorne's revenge. From what they knew at that moment, both Balon and Robb was stupid to think independance would work long-term.

Robb and Balon made the same mistake. DONT CROWN YOURSELF unless you think you can conquer more than half the kingdom or you are confidant it will break in several small factions. without the crowning both men did great.

[Lord Reaver]

It's not genocide, because they aren't a race. They're a specific group, not a race. It's like saying wiping out all Nazis or all racists or all kiddie-diddlers is genocide. It's not. Those aren't races, they're groups of people defined entirely by behavior.

Sure, and if I advocate killing all americans or all british people, that's not genocide either.

The Ironborn aren't "defined entirely by their behavior". The Old Way is only held by a minority, the only person said to truly live by it is Euron.

[Dany Girl]

Robb should've worded his message to Balon exactly that way. Instead he framed it as giving Balon the crown. Not that Balon was inclined to join Robb anyway, but the letter wouldn't have offended him as much.

I agree that the wording was bad, especially considering the audience. Theon also delivered it poorly. But the intent was to join forces and each gain their own crown. With the North/Riverlands and Iron Islands, Tywin's chances of winning diminish greatly. So Balon ends up shooting himself in the foot as well as Robb.

[Winnief]

It was war. Of course the IB unleashed the Old Way. Rape and pillage happens just as much when the greenlanders wage war.

Fighting back doesn't include invading and subjugating, that's an aggressive move, if the greenlanders had just defended themselves against raids, they would have stopped (as they did in the real world) because they would cost more than they would give.

Yeah, but the greenlanders don't base their entire culture and economy on the ethos of piracy.

And what do you mean invading and subjugating? THe whole reason Balon was able to try again, is because Robert settled for making Balon agree to peace, had Theon placed with Ned, and then pretty much left them alone.

And oh, yeah, all the mainlander's have to do is play defense..oh yeah, that's certainly stopped the IB before...but why the hell am I even arguing this? You're clearly not arguing in good faith here, and if you actually do believe your arguments then its truly frightening.

[JesterX]

Sure, and if I advocate killing all americans or all british people, that's not genocide either.

The Ironborn aren't "defined entirely by their behavior". The Old Way is only held by a minority, the only person said to truly live by it is Euron.

If that was the case, Euron wouldn't have been made King. The IB LIKE his way, that's why they crowned him.

[Dany Girl]

If King Renly wins (aka at the time of this plan he has the entire Reach and Stormlands) would he be inclined to reward "King Balon" who helped conquer the Western shore of the North? Maybe. If Renly decided to fight him, hell, Balon is down with being drowned and rising harder and stronger, he did it before and the realm knows Renly to be of a similar mold to Robert (without the warrior aspect) as opposed to Stannis or Tywin.

But Balon crowned himself, so no Renly would not reward him. Renly would demand he bends the knee (like he wants Robb to do) and Balon is back to square 1 with depleted resources. He won't stay free by fighting the North. He'll only get sucked back into the 7ks. The IIs are not large enough to stand on their own.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Would they? That's not how it's worded.

"The pup says nothing about a reward. Only that you speak for him, and I am to listen, and give him my sails and swords, and in return he will give me a crown. He will give me a crown..."

"A poor choice of words, what is meant is-"

"What is meant is what is said. The boy will give me a crown. And what is given can be taken away"

The irony here being that later Balon went with his tail between his legs and practically asked Tywin to let him keep the North.

[Chatty Duelist]

Yes, petty. Since he tried to rebel and Robert's forces kicked his ass and killed his sons. His issue should have been with the Baratheons, not Starks. Starks treated his remaining son well and Ned had no choice when he was made warden of Theon. His issues with the Starks is stupid and petty because his real issues should have been with the crown (Joffery) and possibly Stannis sense Stannis lead one of the defining attacks. Ned, even if he has issue with Ned, is dead. Robb was a baby at the rebellion and has treated Theon like a brother.

More importantly attacking the North does not get to grant the Islands independence. They should be fighting against the people who actually hold their independence, not people who make no difference. Allying with the North against the South gives them the best chance for long term independence.

:cheers:

Add to that his delusional rationalising of his actions, blaming the Starks for the death of his dickwad sons who actually died at Seagard and Pyke.

[The Frosted King]

Robb himself had an inevitable defeat. independance was out of question for Tywin/Stannis and even Renly who would let him keep his crown but still froce him to pay taxes to the crown. Even if Robb won, sooner or later the crown would have come to punish him. Balon and Robb had no way of knowing the situation as more complicated that what it looked like. They didnt know about Euron, fAegon, Dany, Varys, LF Cercei craziness, Tyrell treachery and Dorne's revenge. From what they knew at that moment, both Balon and Robb was stupid to think independance would work long-term.

Robb and Balon made the same mistake. DONT CROWN YOURSELF unless you think you can conquer more than half the kingdom or you are confidant it will break in several small factions. without the crowning both men did great.

Robb had the shadow of Renly looming over him, but his shade wasn't malevolent, unlike the Lannisters.

Worse comes to worst, he can bend the knee to Renly. His mother promised as much.

But Robb sent Balon the best possible chance he'd ever get of independence.

If Balon agrees, and attacks the rich west, when Renly wins he'll have to vacate, yes but magnitudes richer.

If Balon agrees and Renly dies, do the Tyrells hitch up with the broken Lannisters?

Does the presence of both northmen and ironborn pillaging the west at will force Tywin to go home, or lose his army to rebellious lords?

If Robb didn't bend...

Robb may have lost his title of king of the trident, but king in the north at the time was secure.

It was Theon releasing Reek/Ramsay that cracked that crown.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. And Balon chose wrong.

And what crown is that which could successfully come for him if Robb won?

Lannisters are the true enemy so his victory demands their defeat.

That leaves Stannis.

He can't raise the men to retake the north via the battered Stormlands or throw rug Westerlands.

The Dornish won't think of heeding the call, and Mace won't either.

Robb's loss wasn't inevitable.

[Fat King Robert]

The irony here being that later Balon went with his tail between his legs and practically asked Tywin to let him keep the North.

He didn't ask for a crown. He already had it. Tywin also states that Cersei should re-marry, putting Balons name forward as a suggestion.

To everyone who thinks I think of Balon as a supersmart person that has never done any mistakes in his life: No. Balon crowning himself at the time was his greatest mistake. But not attacking the North wasn't, for reasons that we have beaten to death like a pinâta.

I also react to the "ironborn should all be wiped out!" comments. Yes, some of them revere the Old Ways, a seemingly dying trend.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. And Balon chose wrong.

The North has always quarrelled with the North. It's like the Brackens and Blackwoods would team up for a common cause. And no, they didn't do that during the war of the five kings, they just followed their liege lord. Once he was out of the game, they started fighting each other anew.

[TheDoomOfValyria]

Another aspect is looking at every description we have of Balon. He was described by Victarion as being a great man, who really was confident in his abilities. He was seen this way even as a child. So why would such an ambitious person attack the North? What financial gains were there? Would this really be something to bring relevance back to the Ironborn?

What would really do this is attacking Lannisport and Casterly Rock and taking their vast wealth. This would be much more prestigous as well. Bottom line, Balon hated the north and the starks, and his emotions got in the way.

[Lord Reaver]

If that was the case, Euron wouldn't have been made King. The IB LIKE his way, that's why they crowned him.

Euron was made king because he had a magic horn and promised the Ironborn all of Westeros and Dragons.

And, as the last chapters where Rodrik confronts him shows, the Ironborn are becoming more than a little disillusioned with him. And not because he hasn't given them opportunity to reave unlike anything they've had in the past 2k years, either.

If reaving and the Old Way was why the Ironborn elected Euron, everyone ought to be happy with him. They're not.

[Frey Pie]

Made no sense to attack the north given his goals. I agree with the op it's all down to spite and emotion

[Lord Reaver]

What would really do this is attacking Lannisport and Casterly Rock and taking their vast wealth. This would be much more prestigous as well. Bottom line, Balon hated the north and the starks, and his emotions got in the way.

Let's be clear, I don't dispute that Balon's hatred for the Starks was instrumental in his decision.

What I am disputing is the "fact" that it was such a horrible decision. It would have been fine if he had made the deal with the crown/lannisters beforehand.

What Balon did was, as he did in his first rebellion, to act hastily, before "testing the waters" so to speak. Then again, this is extremely easy to see with hindsight and reader knowledge, neither of which Balon had.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Both plans that were put forward (crown himself and attack the West or crown himself and attack the North) had flaws and risks. There isn't really an obviously better choice like many people seem to believe, and the path he chose does not make Balon an idiot

But the best play would be to put off the independence stuff and swear fealty to one of the Iron Throne contenders in exchange for land. The increased wealth and power from that conquest could be used in a fight for independence later

[Lord Reaver]

Problem was, at the point in time when Balon attacked the north, there are several strong contenders for the crown. Swearing himself to any one of those is risky.

Crowning himself gives him the possibility to take land and then, if one of the claimants have come out on top, sue for either a peace or a fealty.

After all, kings knelt to the Iron Throne before, it's not unreasonable to expect that might happen again.

On the other hand, if the war for the IT resulted in total chaos, he'd be sitting pretty with the Iron Isles and the North.