Balon attacking the North

[Fat King Robert]

When its held as more worthy than merely paying currency for it, then yes.

I could either buy a sandwich, or i could murder the people walking out of Burger King before they get to their cars and pay the iron price.

And i deride the Reaver as someone against torture, but wishes the ironborn to have independence so they can rape, pillage and have all the thralls a man could desire.

So you're against looting the bodies of your fallen enemies, something that almost all of the westerosi soldiers do?

Comparing the Old Ways with the real world Burger King doesn't do it for me, sorry.

I don't advocate raping, pillaging, or torturing. I wouldn't want anyone to be raped OR tortured. However, saying that all the ironborn should be killed off sounds odd to me (something that several posters have suggested). Ramsay is a northman, Roose is a northman. Therefore, all the northmen should be anihilated because of two bad apples. One thing people seem to forget is that raping and pillaging is something that all armies in westeros does, not only the IB. They IB, however, doesn't hide it.

Not all the IB follow the Old Ways, y'know. Just saying. During the War of Conquest, Aegon the Conquerer outlawed the practice within westeros. During ASOIAF there's a huge war going on, which is why many of IB are practicing the arts of the Old Ways.

Now that I think of it, Ser Amory Lorch, Ser Gregor, Rickard Karstark, etc have all practiced the Old Ways. They have pillaged. They have plundered. They have raped, they have (drum roll) looted the corpses of their enemies.

The things I react to, is that people scold the IB for committing atrocities that the rest of nobles of Westeros have done. I'm not trying to hide the fact that the Old Ways are a lifestyle that encourage atrocities like raping and such, a custom that is seemingly dying out.

I'd like to raise the question; during war, what's the difference in being in Balon Greyjoy's army, or Tywin Lannister's army? The same atrocities are committed in both.

[Gwydden]

I'd like to raise the question; during war, what's the difference in being in Balon Greyjoy's army, or Tywin Lannister's army? The same atrocities are committed in both.

That the Greyjoys glorify it, while the Lannisters simply don't care for it? But there is virtually no difference, I agree.

[GallowsKnight]

Only because they're dead last on the priority list.

Which means when their time did come their enemies would be weak from war and more likeky to maybe cut a deal.

[Jasta11]

Which means when their time did come their enemies would be weak from war and more likeky to maybe cut a deal.

Except not since, as we see, the Ironborn had already did what the IT wanted them to do, and the North obviously has no interest in making deals with them either. Thus no one has any intention of cutting deals with them, even Renly wouldn't have if he won since Balon crowned himself, and Stannis telling them to sod off was a given since it's Stannis. Being of little enough consequence that your enemies go after you last is not a demonstration of strategic skill.

[Boarsbane]

I'd like to raise the question; during war, what's the difference in being in Balon Greyjoy's army, or Tywin Lannister's army? The same atrocities are committed in both.

Tywin Lannister's army actually fights other armies.

[Lord Reaver]

And i deride the Reaver as someone against torture, but wishes the ironborn to have independence so they can rape, pillage and have all the thralls a man could desire.

You deride me eh? That's cute.

Actually, what you seem to deride is a strawman, to which you have affixed my screenname (wrongly, but I get the gist) and given a stance I do not hold. So...have fun with that.

[Lord Reaver]

Tywin Lannister's army actually fights other armies.

The people of the Riverlands disagree.

[Sullen]

Tywin Lannister's army actually fights other armies.

The Ironborn fought the garrisons at Moat Cailin, Deepwood Mott, and Torrhen Square, they also fought the Wild Hares and fought the men protecting the Shields.

[Boarsbane]

The people of the Riverlands disagree.

I'm not saying they didn't slaughter civilians too. I am saying unlike Balon, Tywin actually did battle with other armies. That is the difference between Tywin's soldiers and Balon's raiders.

[Lord Reaver]

Ah, I see, in that case I refer you to The Sullen Sellsword's post.

[Boarsbane]

The Ironborn fought the garrisons at Moat Cailin, Deepwood Mott, and Torrhen Square, they also fought the Wild Hares and fought the men protecting the Shields.

Weak garrisons, I said they didn't ever fight an army. The Shields don't count since Euron was in charge of that, not Balon.

[Lord Reaver]

Weak garrisons, I said they didn't ever fight an army. The Shields don't count since Euron was in charge of that, not Balon.

Oh, I see, you're falling back to nitpicking. In that case, Robert Baratheon's army.

[Boarsbane]

Oh, I see, you're falling back to nitpicking. In that case, Robert Baratheon's army.

Maybe you should go back and read the original post I replied to, this obviously refers to the Wot5K since he mentioned Tywin's army.

[The Frosted King]

You deride me eh? That's cute.

Actually, what you seem to deride is a strawman, to which you have affixed my screenname (wrongly, but I get the gist) and given a stance I do not hold. So...have fun with that.

Its not a strawman if its explicitly part of their way of life.

The ironborn independence isn't Dornish independence, which isn't riverlands independence.

They're more like wildlings than any other group, only they're good at sea.

[Frey Pie]

Saying raping is done by all armies isn't true by what we know. Robb never ordered rape and any army he personally led seems to have been well behaved. Renlys army and Jaime's also isn't known for their atrocities nor stannis'.

Roose and Ramsay are the Northern Tywin and Gregor. Monsters and rapists. Rickard Karstark may also have ordered his men to target innocents

[Jasta11]

Oh, I see, you're falling back to nitpicking. In that case, Robert Baratheon's army.

Eh, that still only happened after Stannis destroyed the Iron Fleet and Bob besieged Pike. Beforehand they torched the Lannister fleet than ran for it.

But still, I agree that it's splitting hairs at this point. Balon was waging a war against the North, it was more than simple raiding.

[Lord Reaver]

Beforehand they torched the Lannister fleet than ran for it.

And besieged Seagard. But I guess sieges only count when it's Robert Baratheon that's doing them...

[Lord Reaver]

Maybe you should go back and read the original post I replied to, this obviously refers to the Wot5K since he mentioned Tywin's army.

So your point is what ? That Balon was clever enough to chose his attack while his enemy's army was otherwise occupied ?

Clearly the Ironborn can and will fight against other armies, which is what you insinuated with your first post. They're just not stupid enough to do so if there's other alternatives which make better strategic sense.

And people say the Ironborn are dumb. Plank in your own eye and so forth...

[Boarsbane]

And besieged Seagard. But I guess sieges only count when it's Robert Baratheon that's doing them...

It wasn't a siege, Jason Mallister didn't hide behind his walls and wait for help, he went out and cut down the Greyjoy heir.

[Boarsbane]

So your point is what ? That Balon was clever enough to chose his attack while his enemy's army was otherwise occupied ?

Clearly the Ironborn can and will fight against other armies, which is what you insinuated with your first post. They're just not stupid enough to do so if there's other alternatives which make better strategic sense.

And people say the Ironborn are dumb. Plank in your own eye and so forth...

My point was the difference between Tywin's and Balon's armies is Tywin's fought other armies, exactly what I said. I don't know what you are on about.