Frey Pie Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 How is it not stupid to fight a country for independence that doesn't hold your fealty? That's just dumb. It's like California fighting Canada in order to become it's own country, illogical. Attacking the North while crowning himself accomplishdnothing. If he hadn't crowned himself, it would be brilliant, but he did, therefore it was dumb.Ha pretty much hit the nail on the head there!Balon tactics were grand but his strategy was all over the place. In the end his spite and hate for the Starks won out. How was he ever going to dictate a war in an area hundreds and hundreds of miles away from him?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 The Starks didn't kill his sons. One was killed by Jason Mallister. The other was killed when a tower came down at Pyke. Hating them for taking his son hostage and turning him might make sense though, but blaming them for his older sons' deaths is irrational. Ah, okay, well then, totally and completely irrational, I was thinking that Ned had killed them,or at least one of them? LOL. House Mallister isn't even a Stark bannerman, so that makes his Stark hatred pure insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Well, it could conceivably have been Ned who "was behind" the death of the one at Pyke, if he led the siege, as is likely. The one who died under the walls of Seagard is....harder to make fit. Either way, both were casualties of war and not killed by Ned personally, so...yeah. It seems that Balon holds Ned personally responsible for everything bad that happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 How was he ever going to dictate a war in an area hundreds and hundreds of miles away from him?? He outlined the answer to this question himself. Also, don't underestimate the value of dominating the sea, particularly in an age before air power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Yes, petty. Since he tried to rebel and Robert's forces kicked his ass and killed his sons. His issue should have been with the Baratheons, not Starks. Starks treated his remaining son well and Ned had no choice when he was made warden of Theon. His issues with the Starks is stupid and petty because his real issues should have been with the crown (Joffery) and possibly Stannis sense Stannis lead one of the defining attacks. Ned, even if he has issue with Ned, is dead. Robb was a baby at the rebellion and has treated Theon like a brother.More importantly attacking the North does not get to grant the Islands independence. They should be fighting against the people who actually hold their independence, not people who make no difference. Allying with the North against the South gives them the best chance for long term independence.There was no way he couldve attacked Stannis, hes on the other side of Westeros, and Balon had a high regard for Tywins abilities, he knew that even since Tywin had Renly, Stannis, and Robb as enemies that he would still win, I for one also never fanthomed Robb defeating Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Another very strong argument. The Stark are weak. If the Stark beat you, they take hostages and leave. If Tywin beats you, he kills all your familly and even the bastard's babies, Sack your entire land and destroy your castles completely.. Exactly I dont understand why people on here think it was a better idea for him to attack the Westerlands, the North was depleted and had a boy for its King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I for one also never fanthomed Robb defeating Tywin. It's fairly clear almost nobody expected that. So if Balon is stupid for thinking so, then he's in good company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 There was no way he couldve attacked Stannis, hes on the other side of Westeros, and Balon had a high regard for Tywins abilities, he knew that even since Tywin had Renly, Stannis, and Robb as enemies that he would still win, I for one also never fanthomed Robb defeating Tywin. But, everyone knows that the North can't be conquered from outside. Robb has the North, the River Lords and if he had the Iron Islands then they've got a very, very strong military line of defense, because at the point the offer was made the Freys were allies, so Robb holds the Twins as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 You mean the guy who's fighting Robb Stark, Edmure Tully, Mace Tyrell, and Renly and Stannis Baratheon at the same time? Balon must've been Tywin's #1 fan if he thought Tywin was somehow going to come out on top against that many enemies. None of them came close to being a match for Tywin, Stannis came the closest, and he knew the Tyrells were a paper tiger and would bend the knee the first chance they got and that the Baratheons were not a united front and never would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 He outlined the answer to this question himself. Also, don't underestimate the value of dominating the sea, particularly in an age before air power.Do tell? Unless it was when he outlines his plan about taking it one castle at a timeIn any case I am not underestimating their naval superiority. But the simple fact is the northern coast it a few hundred miles away. The North is hundreds of miles wide and and long. Any news he receives will be stale by a few weeks without George forgetting the rules of distance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 But, everyone knows that the North can't be conquered from outside. Robb has the North, the River Lords and if he had the Iron Islands then they've got a very, very strong military line of defense, because at the point the offer was made the Freys were allies, so Robb holds the Twins as well. Tywin wouldve maneuvered and created disent and cracks in that kingdom with the gold of Casterly Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Since fighting the North wouldn't earn them independence, why fight them? The boy king wasn't handing him shit. He was offering an alliance against the actual people who have their independence to gain mutual independence and have an ally in case the crown (the real threat) tries to retake them. That's what allies is all about. Instead Balon set it up to be the Iron Islands against the entire continent. That's so unbelievably stupid. What a naive statement, the entire continent is not united and never will be, the only people who care about the North is Northmen, and some Rivermen but they will look out for #1 everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I agree. Just the symbolic nature of Lannisport falling under the Ironborn would have been a red flag for the Tyrells, saying "this ship is sinking, go find another one" They wouldve never fallen to the Ironborn, I dont see why your underestimating Tywin and the Lannisters at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Robb himself had an inevitable defeat. independance was out of question for Tywin/Stannis and even Renly who would let him keep his crown but still froce him to pay taxes to the crown. Even if Robb won, sooner or later the crown would have come to punish him. Balon and Robb had no way of knowing the situation as more complicated that what it looked like. They didnt know about Euron, fAegon, Dany, Varys, LF Cercei craziness, Tyrell treachery and Dorne's revenge. From what they knew at that moment, both Balon and Robb was stupid to think independance would work long-term.Robb and Balon made the same mistake. DONT CROWN YOURSELF unless you think you can conquer more than half the kingdom or you are confidant it will break in several small factions. without the crowning both men did great.True crowning yourself kind of alienates you from potential allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 They wouldve never fallen to the Ironborn, I dont see why your underestimating Tywin and the Lannisters at that time. Why not? Even some serious reaving in Lannisport and the South would have put the Lannisters in a completely different political position. From a geographic standpoint, if you are IB and you want independence, you should align yourself with those regions around you. Not the South. It's stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Problem was, at the point in time when Balon attacked the north, there are several strong contenders for the crown. Swearing himself to any one of those is risky. Crowning himself gives him the possibility to take land and then, if one of the claimants have come out on top, sue for either a peace or a fealty. After all, kings knelt to the Iron Throne before, it's not unreasonable to expect that might happen again. On the other hand, if the war for the IT resulted in total chaos, he'd be sitting pretty with the Iron Isles and the North. He wouldve been overthrown by the Ironborn if he first crowned himself then threw it off and bent the knee to the victorious greenlander on the IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Why not? Even some serious reaving in Lannisport and the South would have put the Lannisters in a completely different political position. From a geographic standpoint, if you are IB and you want independence, you should align yourself with those regions around you. Not the South. It's stupid. What do you mean by "with those regions around you"? You do know that the Iron Islands is closest to the Westerlands and the Riverlands not the North right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 But, everyone knows that the North can't be conquered from outside. Robb has the North, the River Lords and if he had the Iron Islands then they've got a very, very strong military line of defense, because at the point the offer was made the Freys were allies, so Robb holds the Twins as well. Robb would never have the Iron Islands as Balon would never bend the knee to a Stark and rightfully so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Robb would never have the Iron Islands as Balon would never bend the knee to a Stark and rightfully so. Wholeheartedly agree I dont understand why some on this forum think everyone should play nice with the Starks, its a dark and morbid medieval fantasy world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 What do you mean by "with those regions around you"? You do know that the Iron Islands is closest to the Westerlands and the Riverlands not the North right? Like I said, the alliance would have included the North, the Riverlands and the Iron Islands. The Vale is neutral. This is a very solid geographic alliance that would be almost impossible to beat in the field. Yes, the Westerlands would have been a piece of cake to raid and then fall back North. Nice and safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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