Balon attacking the North

[Lord Reaver]

My point was the difference between Tywin's and Balon's armies is Tywin's fought other armies, exactly what I said. I don't know what you are on about.

Well, seeing how you limit yourself to only one small time period, I can say the exact opposite: The difference betwen Tywin's and Balon's armies is Balon's fought other armies.

[Toos]

Why some believe that Balon could bend knee again? It was second time he rebelled, Stannis, Renly or Tywin would execute him.

[Boarsbane]

Well, seeing how you limit yourself to only one small time period, I can say the exact opposite: The difference betwen Tywin's and Balon's armies is Balon's fought other armies.

I'm limiting myself to this small time period because it is the only time, as far as we know, that both have armies in the field.

[Lord Reaver]

Why some believe that Balon could bend knee again? It was second time he rebelled, Stannis, Renly or Tywin would execute him.

That's your opinion and you're free to think so. Now, may I ask the same courtesy of you ?

I disagree, of course. I don't believe Renly would execute a man for rebelling against Joffrey. He already suggested allying with one such rebel, after all.

Stannis, well he might, just because he's Stannis. Then again, he might not, considering Balon is attacking the rebellious northerners. All depends whether Balon would bend the knee or not.

Tywin ? Well, no, he probably wouldn't.

[Lord Reaver]

I'm limiting myself to this small time period because it is the only time, as far as we know, that both have armies in the field.

So you're cherry picking to suit your bias. I see. Allow me to ignore your pathetic attempts at trolling in the future, then.

[Toos]

That's your opinion and you're free to think so. Now, may I ask the same courtesy of you ?

I disagree, of course. I don't believe Renly would execute a man for rebelling against Joffrey. He already suggested allying with one such rebel, after all.

Stannis, well he might, just because he's Stannis. Then again, he might not, considering Balon is attacking the rebellious northerners. All depends whether Balon would bend the knee or not.

Tywin ? Well, no, he probably wouldn't.

Why they should let him live, so he can raise again after another 5 years? What would be benefit let Balon liveand plananother rebellion? Maybe they wouldn't kill him but I doubt that they would let him rule Iron Isles.

[Boarsbane]

So you're cherry picking to suit your bias. I see. Allow me to ignore your pathetic attempts at trolling in the future, then.

I don't even know why you replied to me in the first place, or why I fed into your ironborn obsession by arguing with you. My bad.

[Fat King Robert]

Saying raping is done by all armies isn't true by what we know. Robb never ordered rape and any army he personally led seems to have been well behaved. Renlys army and Jaime's also isn't known for their atrocities nor stannis'.

Roose and Ramsay are the Northern Tywin and Gregor. Monsters and rapists. Rickard Karstark may also have ordered his men to target innocents

Still, doesn't mean such things were never committed.

[Frey Pie]

Still, doesn't mean such things were never committed.

And just because it wasn't mentioned that Tywin worked in the soup kitchens in Flea Bottom doesn't mean it didn't happen either but as we can reasonably infer that he didn't. Jaime wanted glory in battle not the dirty underhand stuff, Stannis is interested in justice, Robb is Ned's son Etc etc.

[Fat King Robert]

And just because it wasn't mentioned that Tywin worked in the soup kitchens in Flea Bottom doesn't mean it didn't happen either but as we can reasonably infer that he didn't. Jaime wanted glory in battle not the dirty underhand stuff, Stannis is interested in justice, Robb is Ned's son Etc etc.

I think my previous post was a bit unclear. I don't think that Robb would give his men order to rape and slaughter the smallfolk. I do believe though, that his men has done such things. Even Stannis' men.

[Frey Pie]

I think my previous post was a bit unclear. I don't think that Robb would give his men order to rape and slaughter the smallfolk. I do believe though, that his men has done such things. Even Stannis' men.

Well we know stannis disciplined his men after they raped. I would say they do in smaller numbers due to the greater discipline and different tactics ie they're kept on a tighter leash then Tywin's men for example. The ironborn seem to take rape and loot as a given same as men under Roose or Ramsay

[Jasta11]

I disagree, of course. I don't believe Renly would execute a man for rebelling against Joffrey. He already suggested allying with one such rebel, after all.

That's one way to put it. The way I read it, Renly only proposed to do what happened to Dorne; let him keep his King in the North title for the flash of it, but only if he bends the knee to the IT and be his subject. Which is not a proposal of alliance at all. It's the same ''deal'' Stannis proposes, only with kinder words and a meaningless title. Plus, would Balon ''no one gives me a crown'' Greyjoy really accept any sort of alliance even if Renly proposed it (which is, again, far from a given)? I think not.

[Lord Reaver]

Plus, would Balon ''no one gives me a crown'' Greyjoy really accept any sort of alliance even if Renly proposed it (which is, again, far from a given)? I think not.

Balon's letter to Tywin indicates otherwise.

[The Frosted King]

Balon was a bunch of bullshit.

That letter proved it.

His two failed plans proved it.

And his smarter brother ignoring his "gains" proved it again.

The scene in the show where Theon verbally chumps him with the truth clinched it.

How does Balon respond?

With violence, as Theon couldn't attack his father in turn.

Fukk Balon.

[Jasta11]

Balon's letter to Tywin indicates otherwise.

But he did that 1) after seeing his invasion is going nowhere 2) after the Lannisters came out on top of the war in the South, 3) he pretty much asked to be left alone, rather than vassalized and 4) Tywin refused his terms since he gained nothing from them.

While Renly is no Tywin, I don't think he would accept such terms either. He doesn,t want to rule over half a kingdon, after all He has 0 interest in having Balon control the North, even if he would agree to leave the Iron Islanders to their devices. Which is also a big if with the Redwynne fleet at his command if he manages to win.

[Lord Reaver]

But he did that 1) after seeing his invasion is going nowhere 2) after the Lannisters came out on top of the war in the South, 3) he pretty much asked to be left alone, rather than vassalized and 4) Tywin refused his terms since he gained nothing from them.

1) His invasion was going to plan, actually.

2) Of course he sent his offer to the ones who came out on top. What would you have him do, send it to the losers ?

3) He offered alliance, yes, something Tywin recognized as fitting due to his strong position.

4) Tywin didn't refuse anything. He told his underlings to wait, in case something better presented itself.

[Cas Stark]

1) His invasion was going to plan, actually.

2) Of course he sent his offer to the ones who came out on top. What would you have him do, send it to the losers ?

3) He offered alliance, yes, something Tywin recognized as fitting due to his strong position.

4) Tywin didn't refuse anything. He told his underlings to wait, in case something better presented itself.

That makes his rant to Theon about no one giving him a crown and paying the iron price sort of a bunch of BS, then, doesn't it? He's willing to make a deal w/Tywin, but not Robb, despite the fact that from a pure "reaving" perspective the pickings in the West and South are much richer than the North and a united IB+Riverlands+North would be pretty GD hard to beat.

Or, to say it another way, his refusal of Robb's offer was purely out of spite and nothing to do with strategy.

[Jasta11]

1) His invasion was going to plan, actually.

2) Of course he sent his offer to the ones who came out on top. What would you have him do, send it to the losers ?

3) He offered alliance, yes, something Tywin recognized as fitting due to his strong position.

4) Tywin didn't refuse anything. He told his underlings to wait, in case something better presented itself.

If by plan, you men acheiving very little other than take the Moat, I suppose. Theon did the heavy lifting that actually hurt the Starks.

Tywin recognized it as so fitting he didn't want to address it. That's called refusing the offer no matter how optimistic you are. Balon had nothing to offer them, the Lannisters would not deal with him and wait for the Northmen to drive them out themselves.

And Cas Stark is right of course. It makes Balon's entire spiel about taking a crown for himself either hypocritical or completely false. Any strategic purpose to attacking the Starks was second to a bitter old man getting his revenge.

[TheWanderer]

Yes, 40k is about what you'd estimate based on the numbers of ships Euron has during his assault. You could push it down to 30, but then you're starting to get down to an average ship size of 30 men, which means quite a few of those "ships" are little more than rowboats.

Renly's army was 100k+ so no, it's not almost that size.

Given that the Reach is probably at least ten times larger and many more times denser populated, the Iron Islands being able to field half what they can is pretty darn close.Fur

Further 40k men is higher than the military estimates for every single other kingdom, by quite a lot in fact. This despite the Iron Islands being far and away the smallest and poorest of them. Maybe there's something wrong with your estimate, maybe there's something wrong with Martin's numbers but common sense says that can't be right.

The shield islands were not "sparsely defended". They have deterred all raiders for the past 2000 years.

The Reach's entire army, including it's navy, have left, that certainly includes the bulk of the forces that would normally have defended the Shield Islands.

The North - He gets to kick the Starks right in the teeth when they're most vulnerable.

Odd then that he specifically avoids any and all Starks, even the wee-little-children ones, in his attempt to take revenge.

I know other regions were involved. But Balon seemed to harbour his grudge against the Starks in particular (which makes sense as they're the closest to him).

Closer than Tywin? Closer than Redwynne? Closer than Renly Baratheon?

What's the point in crowning yourself if you're just going to take it off later? And that's assuming anyone let's him just take it off. After all, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice... won't get fooled again.

The Kingdom is always going to come back together, that's what everybody wants or at least, everyone but the North. Why attack the only party that's fighting to fracture the kingdom, if fracturing the kingdom is exactly what you want to happen?

And also the man in the weakest position at the time Balon makes his decision. Balon's best bet to avoid repercussions from Tywin isn't to avoid pissing him off, it's to eradicate him when he has the chance.

Which

Which is because they've done the least amount of fighting. They'd be in that position if they'd gone after the Lannisters too. Except they'd have more money, an ally and possibly Tywin and the Lannisters would be dead.

That argument doesn't hold water because Balon's stated goal is to see the return of the Old Ways. The Old Ways aren't just something that happens, they are something Balon wants. Advocating for the right to return to the Old Ways is advocating for the right to rape, murder and steal. Advocating for Balon's right/decision to return his people to the Old Ways is advocating for Balon's right/decision to have people raped, murdered and stolen from.

And each and everyone of those men is despised for it, even by their own side. Had those men been Ironborn though they'd be legendary heroes for doing exactly the same thing. That's the problem with the Old Ways, it encourages, demands even, that men become the worst kind of monsters to live by it.

Balon isn't rebelling against Joffery, he's rebelling against the Throne. Since the Throne belongs to Renly (according to Renly), Balon is therefore rebelling against him.

[The Golden Wolf]

Now that I think about Balon's plan isn't too bad. Basically he aimed high while remaining able to compromise.

The North - He gets to kick the Starks right in the teeth when they're most vulnerable. To him this is revenge for their actions in the Greyjoy Rebellion. I know other regions were involved. But Balon seemed to harbour his grudge against the Starks in particular (which makes sense as they're the closest to him). He also gets to seize land. If he doesn't end up holding it he can still retreat knowing he's hurt the Starks.

Kingship - If the seven kingdom fracture he gets to be a King on his own steam. If they reunite well he can always take off his crown and bend the knee like last time.

The Lannisters - Balon didn't piss off Tywin the man he perceives as being the biggest threat, a man with a reputation for extinguishing houses.

If you actually look at it the Iron Islands has some of the lowest causalities of all the actually participating forces.

Actually the North is farthest from them. The westrrlands, Reach, and Riverlands are way closer. This is a point that must be made. He attacked the kingdom that is the farthest from his own and also the least attractive when it comes to pillaging. It was stupid.

All Balon bad to do was declare himself king and raid those closest to him and he would have made out like a bandit.