unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I personally see very little difference between being given a crown and being allowed to keep one. Robb offered to let him crown himself and then help him keep it. Balon spat all over that deal, then crowned himself and begged Tywin to let him keep it. That's not smart. They quarrel so much that the North doesn't even have a fleet, and hasn't for hundreds of years? They quarrel so much that the North doesn't have castles on its western coast? What exactly is your evidence of this ancient enmity between the two regions? What makes you think he could've held the North? As the latter books have shown us there are still quite a lot of fighting men left in the North, from the mountain clans to Manderly. And then there's Robb's large and seasoned army coming back North. Moat Cailin's never been taken from the south but it's never had to be taken by Northmen before. It's obvious that the biggest danger to seiging isn't the fortifications themselves but rather the Cragonnmen, and they are firmly on Robb's side. And then there's winter. Winter is coming, can any invading force hold the North once the snows come? I doubt it. Im an Ironborn fan and wholeheartedly supported Balon attacking the North but not trying to hold the place as Balon did but merely do some raiding and sacking for plunder and revenge and then leaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Like I said, the alliance would have included the North, the Riverlands and the Iron Islands. The Vale is neutral. This is a very solid geographic alliance that would be almost impossible to beat in the field. Yes, the Westerlands would have been a piece of cake to raid and then fall back North. Nice and safe. The Ironborn would never and rightfully so bend the knee to any greenlander be it a Stark or be included in an alliance that involved the Rivermen, their past subjects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwydden Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Im an Ironborn fan and wholeheartedly supported Balon attacking the North but not trying to hold the place as Balon did but merely do some raiding and sacking for plunder and revenge and then leaving. The Ironborn used to rule the Riverlands, so it is natural they would want to have possessions in the mainland once again. The North was fairly easy to hold, and they could have left any time they wanted (as they did). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 The Ironborn would never and rightfully so bend the knee to any greenlander be it a Stark or be included in an alliance that involved the Rivermen, their past subjects. They already have bent the knee. They bent the knee to the dragon lords, to Robert Baratheon and then to the Lannisters. They appear to simply not be very adept at any strategy beyond 'we do not sow' and 'pirating is cool'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 The Ironborn would never and rightfully so bend the knee to any greenlander be it a Stark or be included in an alliance that involved the Rivermen, their past subjects. They already did twice, Aegon the Conquer and Robert Baratheon. You can bet if Balon and Tywin had lived, the minute Tywin was free to deal with Balon, he would kneel again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 The Ironborn used to rule the Riverlands, so it is natural they would want to have possessions in the mainland once again. The North was fairly easy to hold, and they could have left any time they wanted (as they did).They held three castles out of dozens. The north is huge. How was it ever going to be easy to hold? The father inland they go the harder it is to leave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 The Ironborn used to rule the Riverlands, so it is natural they would want to have possessions in the mainland once again. The North was fairly easy to hold, and they could have left any time they wanted (as they did). The Stormkings used to rule the Riverlands as well, but you don't see the Baratheons trying to invade them. The Ironborn didn't hold the entire North, just the west coast and Winterfell for a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 They already have bent the knee. They bent the knee to the dragon lords, to Robert Baratheon and then to the Lannisters. They appear to simply not be very adept at any strategy beyond 'we do not sow' and 'pirating is cool'. When did they do that? They already did twice, Aegon the Conquer and Robert Baratheon. You can bet if Balon and Tywin had lived, the minute Tywin was free to deal with Balon, he would kneel again. Only if Tywin can beat him at sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I mostly agree, independence was a stupid goal. But the North would eventually need a fleet if they're going to stay independent and White Harbor is a very large port (but I think on the wrong side of the country).Balon had basically the following logical choices:-Team with Robb and gain mutual independence, and hope that they come to help if needed-fight the North, but do not crown yourself. That way whomever wins you can say, "hey, I had your back"- crown yourself, but do nothing. Do not raid anyone. Keep your men close and arm the shit out of your land. Make it so eventually if the ultimate winner decides to come for you after the fighting is done, it won't be easy. Establish ties to Braavos in the meantime, you're gonna need supplies.Right because with Braavos on the other side of the world that makes alot of logistical sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnief Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Only if Tywin can beat him at sea. Or if Paxter Redwyne and the Arbor's ships could. Remember everyone else in the seven kingdoms wants the IB out. Here's Martin on the original Greyjoy rebellion. He (Balon) believed that Robert, as a usurper, might not have the strong support of the other lords the way that a Targaryen king would have. He also thought he could defeat Robert at sea. [3] Balon underestimated the Greenlander's ability to fight back the first time, and he got it wrong the second time as well. Pitting the IB and their Old Way against everybody else in Westeros just doesn't work-you can win some plunder in the short run, all right, but eventually you're going to be brought to heel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 When did they do that? Only if Tywin can beat him at sea. If Tywin can beat him at sea then Balon won't even get a chance to bend the knee, Tywin won't make the same mistake Robert did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Or if Paxter Redwyne and the Arbor's ships could. Remember everyone else in the seven kingdoms wants the IB out. Here's Martin on the original Greyjoy rebellion. He (Balon) believed that Robert, as a usurper, might not have the strong support of the other lords the way that a Targaryen king would have. He also thought he could defeat Robert at sea. [3] Balon underestimated the Greenlander's ability to fight back the first time, and he got it wrong the second time as well. Pitting the IB and their Old Way against everybody else in Westeros just doesn't work-you can win some plunder in the short run, all right, but eventually you're going to be brought to heel. Except that in his first Rebellion Westeros was united. In his second one the Lannisters and Tyrells were at war with the Starks and the Tullys. The Arryns and the Martells are staying out of it and the Baratheons are divided. If Tywin can beat him at sea then Balon won't even get a chance to bend the knee, Tywin won't make the same mistake Robert did. "Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unSonofStannis Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Except that in his first Rebellion Westeros was united. In his second one the Lannisters and Tyrells were at war with the Starks and the Tullys. The Arryns and the Martells are staying out of it and the Baratheons are divided. Exactly theyve been talking like the greenlanders are united. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 "Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." Balon burned Tywin's fleet and Robert let him off with basically no punishment, you think Tywin is going to let him live after he rebels a 2nd time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Balon burned Tywin's fleet and Robert let him off with basically no punishment, you think Tywin is going to let him live after he rebels a 2nd time? "Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." And again, that's only if he can beat him at sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 "Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you." And again, that's only if he can beat him at sea. Because a character in this series have never said something and later proved themselves to be a complete hypocrite? Tywin especially. Tywin spares the Stormlords, but makes the Reynes and Tarbecks extinct. I would think he would be more likely to deal with Balon like he did the Reynes and Tarbecks but to each his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Because a character in this series have never said something and later proved themselves to be a complete hypocrite? Tywin especially. Tywin spares the Stormlords, but makes the Reynes and Tarbecks extinct. I would think he would be more likely to deal with Balon like he did the Reynes and Tarbecks but to each his own. He made an example of the Reynes and the Tarbecks. Are there any examples of people bending the knee and him wiping them out entirely anyways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 He made an example of the Reynes and the Tarbecks. Are there any examples of people bending the knee and him wiping them out entirely anyways? No but Balon isn't going to bend the knee unless Tywin defeats him at sea, like you said. If Tywin has to go to all the trouble of invading the Iron Islands and just leave Balon in power because he gave up at the end, again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee-Sensei Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 No but Balon isn't going to bend the knee unless Tywin defeats him at sea, like you said. If Tywin has to go to all the trouble of invading the Iron Islands and just leave Balon in power because he gave up at the end, again. Do we have any evidence of him wiping any other Houses out completely besides the Reynes and the Tarbecks as examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Do we have any evidence of him wiping any other Houses out completely besides the Reynes and the Tarbecks as examples? Two isn't enough? Do we have any one else alive at beginning of the series that has wiped out even a single house? It wouldn't be practical, or even possible, to wipe out every House that defies you. But it would be even less practical to leave a man who has started two rebellions in power. It would be completely out of character for Tywin to spare Balon, and Balon would have to be an even bigger idiot than he seems to think Tywin would spare even if he surrendered. Tywin might not wipe out his entire line sense Asha could be the Sansa equivalent of the Greyjoys and used to marry in someone that Tywin trusts, but Balon has to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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