Balon attacking the North

[Lord Reaver]

Um no. An average longship would have between 24 - 50 men. 100 men is pretty much considered the largest Longship. Even if all the ships of the Iron Fleet are massive ships manned by 100 men, thats 1000 men, the rest is going to be made up of not just smaller vessels, and likely so very small ones belonging to poor men seeking their own glory. In a culture where every captain is a king, your likely going to find small 12 person vessels.

Nope, sorry. The Leidang states that a ship should be at least 20 "sesser", that means 20 pairs of oars, i.e 40 oars. Each oar took 2 men. Add to that the commanding crew and you end up with about 90 men. And that's the standard ship of the leidang. Many were bigger, with 25-30 "sesser".

Also, 100x100 equals 10000. Not 1000.

Asha had 4 Longships with her at Deepwood Motte, and yet out of those 4 Longships, she had 100 men, or roughly that number.

She had that number of men because the rest had deserted her. It was by no means a given that those 4 ships had a full complement.

First, that wouldn't take it off the nobles, who are captains themselves, and captains of the larger ships. Second, so know your creating system in place for the Ironborn which are not stated anywhere in the text.

Uh, did you miss the part about "every captain is King" ?

Because another island wouldn't rely on fishing.

I never said they wouldn't rely on it. But the amount of fish in the sea would directly influence the number of people who could live there. And since we have no information about that, it's all speculation.

Because the Ironborn are never called poor, from poor islands.

Just like their Viking inspiration, yes. But poor in wealth does not neccessarily equal militarily weak in the sort of pre-mercenary military organization. As long as you have iron (the Iron Isles has this) and men to work it, you can have an army good as any.

You admit that Tywin was set to lose, so instead your point is that instead of siding with the faction with the same goal as you, you attack them, and side with the losing side that is about to be destroyed by Renly and his host in uniting Westeros? Damn that makes him look worse, and even worse when you consider he was scared shitless of Tywin. How you can argue that siding with Tywin, who he thought would lose, makes sense, is beyond me.

No. Balon wasn't siding with anyone until Renly had his little run-in with the Shadowbaby. Instead, he did much the same thing as Tywin, he awaited the situation. When things turned out the way they did, he sent an offer to the guy who (miraculously) came out on top.

I have yet to see a single person list what gain there were in attacking the North.

Land. Easily defendable, unlike that of the Westerlands, if you happen to have the strongest navy in Westeros.

Add to that revenge, which was a strong personal motivator for Balon.

[Lord Reaver]

It doesn't matter how often they fight. Your post was about martial cultures, just because a culture doesn't actually fight much doesn't mean it isn't a martial culture. Everything a knight is and does is for the purposes of fighting.

And how large a % of the population are knights, compared to how many Ironborn are crewing ships ?

Do they? How many and how often? Essos is a very long way away, traveling there is not easily achievable or a practical thing for the bulk of Ironborn society to be doing on a regular basis. Also, weren't you earlier arguing that the Ironborn weren't currently practicing the Old Way, which is of course comprised of raiding (or was that another poster?)

It doesn't have to be the bulk of society. Even just increasind the percentage of population ready to bear arms from 1 to 2% doubles the number of soldiers.

I was arguing that the Old Way wasn't a significant contributor to the Ironborn economy, and that nobody by Euron lived by it 100%. There's a difference.

But given that ships are really expensive (and also you have to pay for a crew and their gear) most of the people who can afford one will be nobles, or close enough as makes no difference. After all, all you have to do to be a knight is be able to afford the horse, armour, weapons and training, no noble blood required.

Ships would be used all the time, not just for raiding. A warhorse has zero use outside of battle. The way it worked was you fished during that season, then you went raiding in the off-season. You didn't have to be a noble, being a well-to do farmer was more than enough.

I honestly don't see much of a difference between the two systems. Care to expand on exactly why one is capable of producing more warriors?

One has a higher % of the populace available to carry arms. It's really not more complicated than that. There's a reason most nations tend to go into conscription if they want more soldiers. This is a problem, of course, because it's costly to train and equip all these conscripts. If these people have already armed and trained themselves, that's a huge cost burden off the central power.

The feudal system, on the other hand, relies on the retinues of the lords. It has no taxes, so very limited means by which to train and equip any other soldiers. There is a reason why nations went from feudal levies to mercenary armies and finally to the conscripted armies of the 19th century, as the central power and monetary system gradually became more developed.

[Toos]

How Balon wanted defend North and Iron isles at same time? He would lost men in battles and sieges againts Dreadfort, White Harbor, etc. Then he has to leave bigger garrison then usual because northmen are gonna rebel againts Ironborn. After this how he wants defend Isles againts Redwyne fleet when most of his men are dead or have to stay in North? And Tywin/Stannis/Renly can attack Balon in the North same way as he attacked Starks.

[TheWanderer]

And how large a % of the population are knights, compared to how many Ironborn are crewing ships ?

Don't know, doesn't matter. A martial culture isn't defined by what percentage of it's men fight, it's defined by how that culture views martial action. The Reach views martial acts as the best way to gain respect, glory, power and wealth, as well as the easiest way to advance social standing. That's what makes it a martial culture.

It doesn't have to be the bulk of society. Even just increasind the percentage of population ready to bear arms from 1 to 2% doubles the number of soldiers.

I was arguing that the Old Way wasn't a significant contributor to the Ironborn economy, and that nobody by Euron lived by it 100%. There's a difference.

So, the Old Way (raiding) isn't common enough to be a significant contributor to the Ironborn economy but is common enough to expect twice as many people to be involved in it then in other regions? Of course it would actually have to be more than twice as much as 2% of a smaller number is less than 1% of a larger one. 40k is a huge investment of manpower proportional to the size of the Iron Islands, honestly given how they are described I would expect that to be close to 50% of the men there, if not more.

Ships would be used all the time, not just for raiding. A warhorse has zero use outside of battle.

You're not going to be fishing in a ship that needs a hundred sailors to move. In the same way that a warhorse isn't practical outside of combat, neither is a warship, they're not designed for it.

The feudal system, on the other hand, relies on the retinues of the lords. It has no taxes, so very limited means by which to train and equip any other soldiers. There is a reason why nations went from feudal levies to mercenary armies and finally to the conscripted armies of the 19th century, as the central power and monetary system gradually became more developed.

Not only is a feudal system defined by the taxes the lords place on the peasants but a levy is defined as conscription. So I'm getting the impression you might not know what you're talking about here.

Nope, sorry. The Leidang states that a ship should be at least 20 "sesser", that means 20 pairs of oars, i.e 40 oars. Each oar took 2 men. Add to that the commanding crew and you end up with about 90 men. And that's the standard ship of the leidang. Many were bigger, with 25-30 "sesser".

Unfortunately the Ironborn don't follow the leidang rules. There's nothing to suggest they follow the same rules for military service as the vikings, and nothing to suggest they follow the same rules for ship building either. Ironborn are not vikings. Actually, scratch that, Ironborn basically are vikings. What they aren't is Norse. Viking was a job description to them and they had a wealth of culture, religion and behaviour beyond that job. The Ironborn do not have that. They do not have the danelaw, the leidang or anything else from Norse culture beyond enjoying the occasional pillage.

Land. Easily defendable, unlike that of the Westerlands, if you happen to have the strongest navy in Westeros.

1) Why do the Ironborn need land?

2) They have the strongest navy on one side of Westeros. They have zero army on the other. The King's fleet could, quite easily, sail up to White Harbour to attack the Ironborn from there.

[Lord Stark]

Nope, sorry. The Leidang states that a ship should be at least 20 "sesser", that means 20 pairs of oars, i.e 40 oars. Each oar took 2 men. Add to that the commanding crew and you end up with about 90 men. And that's the standard ship of the leidang. Many were bigger, with 25-30 "sesser".

Also, 100x100 equals 10000. Not 1000.

Again your making up a system that is not stating to be in text.

Also I never stated that there were no ships that size. These ships would in fact be considered to what the Iron Fleet are. That is the main battle ships. You don't think these wouldn't be supported by smaller ships?

The Snekkja was the most common viking longship, and it's had a crew of 41 men. Skeids, some of the largest longships that have been found, had a crew of 70 - 80. A Karvi, ships that would make up a rather large part of the Iron Islands ships, were manned by 6 - 16 men. These would be small, and as such cheaper to build, cheaper to maintain, and cheaper to crew. In a culture where every man who is a captain is a king, many of the poor, or low nobility would build these.

She had that number of men because the rest had deserted her. It was by no means a given that those 4 ships had a full complement.

Trying to reach as much as you can. Asha started with 30 Longships. She went to the Kingsmoot, and came back with 4 longships. She was abandoned by 27 longships. Crews themselves, are unlikely to just leave. Further more you have provided no proof that these longships were under manned, and crewed by 25 men each, of the 100 each ship would need. Damn hard sailing ahead, better go back to the far North where nothing awaiting us.

Uh, did you miss the part about "every captain is King" ?

Um no, and I have mentioned in in another post. I do like that again you avoided a question though, you know the one where you just throw in a system of levy in the Ironborn culture, with nothing in the text to show it.

I never said they wouldn't rely on it. But the amount of fish in the sea would directly influence the number of people who could live there. And since we have no information about that, it's all speculation.

I'm sure a place known for it's rough mountains, and with people being called the Stoneborn, would rely very heavy on fish.

Just like their Viking inspiration, yes. But poor in wealth does not neccessarily equal militarily weak in the sort of pre-mercenary military organization. As long as you have iron (the Iron Isles has this) and men to work it, you can have an army good as any.

Yet there was much farming in viking culture, and many who went out a viking, were farmers seeking riches. The Iron Islands lacks farmland, because they are rocky islands, sounds like Skagos, with a thin layer of top soil. Animals and livestock are rare, and often farming and labour is done without horses, oxen, and other animals. These means it takes longer to grow less. Iron is one of the few metals they mine, which is back breaking, and again, without large amounts of animals of labours, takes longer.

There is a reason that vikings were known for their hit and run tactics, and not for fighting against large numbers, and for not being able to handle sieges well. Most vikings were weekend warriors, not all, of course there were the hardcore warriors. There is a reason that the reforms of Alfred the Great's reforms on creating the Burh system proved to limit, and stop viking raids in Wessex. The vikings couldn't siege the strongholds. They had to starve them, and this gave time for reinforcements to arrive.

No. Balon wasn't siding with anyone until Renly had his little run-in with the Shadowbaby. Instead, he did much the same thing as Tywin, he awaited the situation. When things turned out the way they did, he sent an offer to the guy who (miraculously) came out on top.

Not really. He was gathering his forces. He attacked the side that had the most to offer him, and attacked the one that had lost battle after battle, and had men going into it's own lands to raid.

Land. Easily defendable, unlike that of the Westerlands, if you happen to have the strongest navy in Westeros.

Add to that revenge, which was a strong personal motivator for Balon.

You have to be able to hold land, which the Ironborn can't do. It took 10,000 to hold Moat Cailin, and still get harassed to bit, an suffer without being about to do anything about it. They gained 3 castles, 2 which are said to be weak, and Winterfell which was taken for plot. Each one of them lost with ease, and none of them taken with a siege, and none of them a major one.

This is one of the weakest points I have ever seen. The North could have been twice as strong if it built a fleet, and sailed into the Vale, and took over the Bloody Gates. Simple to say, hard to do. 1000 years of war hard.

Balon and revenge, another weak point. So why the revenge on Ned? What did he do? Sure he fostered Theon, but that isn;t really revenge worthy. Balon would lose him either way. Did a Stark kill one of his sons? Nope Rodrik was killed by a Mallister, who is a lord in the Riverlands. Maron was killed in Pyke where the breach was, likely by an unnamed soldier. Stannis defeated them in naval warfare, made them look like fools at the only good thing they were skilled at. The Redwynes were also major commanders in the naval battle. So why revenge against the North?

[Lord Reaver]

Don't know, doesn't matter.

The percentage of men who fight is precisely what matters here. Have you not been paying attention ?

So, the Old Way (raiding) isn't common enough to be a significant contributor to the Ironborn economy but is common enough to expect twice as many people to be involved in it then in other regions? Of course it would actually have to be more than twice as much as 2% of a smaller number is less than 1% of a larger one. 40k is a huge investment of manpower proportional to the size of the Iron Islands, honestly given how they are described I would expect that to be close to 50% of the men there, if not more.

The Norwegian army of the 12th century has been estimated to be between 27k and 33k, based on the law for the leidang. If you want to try and find a country which more closely resembles the Iron Islands, go right ahead.

You're not going to be fishing in a ship that needs a hundred sailors to move. In the same way that a warhorse isn't practical outside of combat, neither is a warship, they're not designed for it.

That's the thing about the "viking" ships, they could, at least the smaller ones. That had it's drawbacks, as they were no match for the later ships built specifically for war (as GRRM correctly has in his books as well).

Not only is a feudal system defined by the taxes the lords place on the peasants but a levy is defined as conscription. So I'm getting the impression you might not know what you're talking about here.

A system of general, regular taxation didn't arise until the very late middle ages, at the earliest. What kings did before that was to call on "emergency" or "war" taxes if they had to. Outside of that, they simply relied on their feudal vassals to provide the army. Scutage was in fact a tax paid by vassals in order to not have to supply their liege with soldiers.

Unfortunately the Ironborn don't follow the leidang rules. There's nothing to suggest they follow the same rules for military service as the vikings, and nothing to suggest they follow the same rules for ship building either.

Aside from the fact their ships are described to be the same, down to the description of the Sea Bitch virtually being taken straight out of the Leidang-law ?

Ironborn are not vikings. Actually, scratch that, Ironborn basically are vikings. What they aren't is Norse. Viking was a job description to them and they had a wealth of culture, religion and behaviour beyond that job. The Ironborn do not have that. They do not have the danelaw, the leidang or anything else from Norse culture beyond enjoying the occasional pillage.

What we have seen of the ironborn thus far, has basically been the equivalent of hollywood vikings, I agree. But we haven't really had the same insight in Ironborn society as we've had from the rest of Westeros. I was asked how they could have such a large army, and proceeded to present my explanation. If you have a better one, do go ahead.

1) Why do the Ironborn need land?

Why does anyone ?

[TheWanderer]

The percentage of men who fight is precisely what matters here. Have you not been paying attention ?

You argued that the simple fact of being a "martial culture" was enough to grant the Ironborn a significantly larger army than the mainland. I was accurately pointing out that many cultures on the mainland are also martial cultures. That means that the 'baseline' percentage for fighting men is already a martial culture and you must find another reason to justify the Iron Islands massive army.

The Norwegian army of the 12th century has been estimated to be between 27k and 33k, based on the law for the leidang. If you want to try and find a country which more closely resembles the Iron Islands, go right ahead.

Norway in the 12th century is nothing like the Iron Islands. 1) It's larger 2) It's not an island 3) it has the leidang.

Aside from the fact their ships are described to be the same, down to the description of the Sea Bitch virtually being taken straight out of the Leidang-law ?

So one ship is described as being viking-like, therefore they organize their entire society on the laws of the Norse, rather than on the mainland culture they are described as being almost identical to?

What we have seen of the ironborn thus far, has basically been the equivalent of hollywood vikings, I agree. But we haven't really had the same insight in Ironborn society as we've had from the rest of Westeros.

We've seen as much of them as we have of most of Westeros. More than we've seen of the Reach and the Westerlands even.

I was asked how they could have such a large army, and proceeded to present my explanation. If you have a better one, do go ahead.

Wait for it... they don't have one.

Why does anyone ?

Because they don't have enough. Do the Ironborn not have enough? Nope, they've got plenty.

[Lord Reaver]

Again your making up a system that is not stating to be in text.

Of course I am. There is no system stated in the text at all. Should I suggest Euron conjured his soldiers out of thin air instead ?

Also I never stated that there were no ships that size. These ships would in fact be considered to what the Iron Fleet are. That is the main battle ships. You don't think these wouldn't be supported by smaller ships?

Yes, of course I do. Which is why I suggested the average crew size be 50, not 100. Did you read my post at all ?

The Snekkja was the most common viking longship, and it's had a crew of 41 men. Skeids, some of the largest longships that have been found, had a crew of 70 - 80. A Karvi, ships that would make up a rather large part of the Iron Islands ships, were manned by 6 - 16 men. These would be small, and as such cheaper to build, cheaper to maintain, and cheaper to crew. In a culture where every man who is a captain is a king, many of the poor, or low nobility would build these.

A Karvi isn't a warship. It's the equivalent of a bus. At most the only use they had in war was to carry equipment. This is illustrated by the fact they didn't have "sesser" or rooms for each pair of oarsment.

It also seems like you are confused by the terminology. When sources state the size of ships like the Karv, they say how many oars are on one side. This number must then be multiplied by 2 to get the number of oarsmen. So a karv which the sources say has 6 oars is crewed by 12 men (only 1 man per oar on these smaller ships). Karvi have been found with any number between 6 and 15 pairs of oars, btw.

I'm sure a place known for it's rough mountains, and with people being called the Stoneborn, would rely very heavy on fish.

I never said otherwise. Thing is, when you rely on fish, the population size is naturally limited by the fishing conditions. In the Ironmen bay, they are apparently good, since that is their main source of income (according to Theon). Around Skagos ? We have no information.

Yet there was much farming in viking culture, and many who went out a viking, were farmers seeking riches. The Iron Islands lacks farmland, because they are rocky islands, sounds like Skagos, with a thin layer of top soil. Animals and livestock are rare, and often farming and labour is done without horses, oxen, and other animals. These means it takes longer to grow less. Iron is one of the few metals they mine, which is back breaking, and again, without large amounts of animals of labours, takes longer.

What you are describing is basically early medieval Norway. See my last post to how big an army that country could field.

Balon and revenge, another weak point. So why the revenge on Ned? What did he do? Sure he fostered Theon, but that isn;t really revenge worthy. Balon would lose him either way. Did a Stark kill one of his sons? Nope Rodrik was killed by a Mallister, who is a lord in the Riverlands. Maron was killed in Pyke where the breach was, likely by an unnamed soldier. Stannis defeated them in naval warfare, made them look like fools at the only good thing they were skilled at. The Redwynes were also major commanders in the naval battle. So why revenge against the North?

If you bothered to go back and read, you'd see that I don't agree with Balon's reasoning here. It is clear, however, that that's what he thought and that it was a part of his reasons for attacking the North.

[Lord Reaver]

You argued that the simple fact of being a "martial culture" was enough to grant the Ironborn a significantly larger army than the mainland. I was accurately pointing out that many cultures on the mainland are also martial cultures. That means that the 'baseline' percentage for fighting men is already a martial culture and you must find another reason to justify the Iron Islands massive army.

Fine, allow me to be more precise: A culture where a larger portion of the populace is willing and able to bear arms. Happy ?

Norway in the 12th century is nothing like the Iron Islands. 1) It's larger 2) It's not an island 3) it has the leidang.

1) Size is fairly irrelevant when you consider that by far most of Norway was unsettled mountains and forest.

2) What does being an island have to do with anything ? I could have used Denmark as an example, and the number of soldiers would have been even larger.

3) And I argue so do the Iron Islands. Since there is no evidence to support either position, I accept that you disagree with me, but that won't actually change my position.

So one ship is described as being viking-like, therefore they organize their entire society on the laws of the Norse, rather than on the mainland culture they are described as being almost identical to?

Yes, it's just the one ship....all the OTHER ships are actually built completely different. /sarcasm Holy crap, I do hope you're being willfully obtuse.

Also, do point out how the Ironborn and mainland cultures are described as being almost identical.

Wait for it... they don't have one.

Then explain the number of ships in Euron's fleet. Oh wait, you're the one who thought the Iron Fleet was his entire force. Heh. Just go back and reread everything on the Ironborn, because you clearly haven't been paying attention.

Nope, they've got plenty.

Apparently, Balon disagrees.

[Lord Stark]

The Norwegian army of the 12th century has been estimated to be between 27k and 33k, based on the law for the leidang. If you want to try and find a country which more closely resembles the Iron Islands, go right ahead.

No I would like you to explain how they are the same? Other than the fact that they both raid. Norway was mainland, and huge, the Iron Islands are tiny. The Iron Islands have no Leidang, so stop with that, no one cares.

Oh and I do like that I found that at first longships were initially 40 oars, later 24 oars in the Leidang, which would be roughly 40 men, and then 24 men. This would also change place by place of course. In the laws of Uppland, the hundreds provided 4 Longships of 24 oars, 24 men, for a total of 100 men. Also don't confuse rowing benches with oars. rowing benches is doubled, oars are not.

That's the thing about the "viking" ships, they could, at least the smaller ones. That had it's drawbacks, as they were no match for the later ships built specifically for war (as GRRM correctly has in his books as well).

Oh Lord Reaper, the master of making a point, and thing switching that point. So the Ironborn was made up of 100 manned crewed longships, that is large for even our history, and yet when you need them to be also able to fish, they turn into small ships.

Aside from the fact their ships are described to be the same, down to the description of the Sea Bitch virtually being taken straight out of the Leidang-law ?

So the Sea Bitch is 24 oars? Which hey, lines up with Asha having 100 men and 4 longships. Thanks.

What we have seen of the ironborn thus far, has basically been the equivalent of hollywood vikings, I agree. But we haven't really had the same insight in Ironborn society as we've had from the rest of Westeros. I was asked how they could have such a large army, and proceeded to present my explanation. If you have a better one, do go ahead.

Not really. You have offered nothing from the text. You just take such from real history and say that it must be so. Fact is that we have never seen or heard of your 50k ironborn, and if they did have such strength, they would be second to the Reach in terms of strength, and this is clearly not the case. The Iron Islands have a smaller population than the Stormlands, Crownlands, Vale, and Westerlands. They are smaller kingdoms, with at the very least are 1/4th their size. They live harder lives, and because of raiding, more get killed. It's hard to farm, mining is slow, and the only reason they can muster up 12k - 25k is that they can muster up a higher percentage of their people. The Iron Islands is the size of pretty much a great house of one of the kingdoms. In the south the average house can muster 1000 - 2000 men.

[Lord Reaver]

Oh and I do like that I found that at first longships were initially 40 oars, later 24 oars in the Leidang, which would be roughly 40 men, and then 24 men. This would also change place by place of course. In the laws of Uppland, the hundreds provided 4 Longships of 24 oars, 24 men, for a total of 100 men. Also don't confuse rowing benches with oars. rowing benches is doubled, oars are not.

Oh, look, you found the Wikipedia article. Here's a tip: Wikipedia doesn't know everything. Indeed, it is frequently wrong, which is why you need to go to the actual sources and read...books. Which I have.

24 "sesser" means 24 pairs of oars. In a warship, there was two men pr. oar. 24x4=96.

[Lord Stark]

Of course I am. There is no system stated in the text at all. Should I suggest Euron conjured his soldiers out of thin air instead ?

Give me a quote where all Euron gain an army out of nowhere. Fact is that all we are told by the rumour mill i that he has 1000 ships, which is believed to be false.

Yes, of course I do. Which is why I suggested the average crew size be 50, not 100. Did you read my post at all ?

And yet the average size of longships from all I've read in the past is smaller. 24 - 40.

A Karvi isn't a warship. It's the equivalent of a bus. At most the only use they had in war was to carry equipment. This is illustrated by the fact they didn't have "sesser" or rooms for each pair of oarsment.

It also seems like you are confused by the terminology. When sources state the size of ships like the Karv, they say how many oars are on one side. This number must then be multiplied by 2 to get the number of oarsmen. So a karv which the sources say has 6 oars is crewed by 12 men (only 1 man per oar on these smaller ships). Karvi have been found with any number between 6 and 15 pairs of oars, btw.

Wrong. The Karvi was a mainly fishing and trading longship, that was pushed into a warship during wars. Sounds like your small ship that fishes you were speaking of.

Oars state how many oars are on the vessel. If these were Greek galleys you would have a point. A Karvi was found with 16 oar positions. That is 16 rowers. That is 8 oars per side.

I never said otherwise. Thing is, when you rely on fish, the population size is naturally limited by the fishing conditions. In the Ironmen bay, they are apparently good, since that is their main source of income (according to Theon). Around Skagos ? We have no information.

So a group of islands with bad farmland, and only ores such as iron and tin, which is hard to mine, has fish as it's main export? Thats surprising, a real shocker. Yes that was a jest. because we are told how bad things are on the island, and how many ships we know they roughly have, it's not a surprise that they would sell the easiest thing for them to catch. Now who sea such fish are caught near their islands?

What you are describing is basically early medieval Norway. See my last post to how big an army that country could field.

Norway does not equal Iron Islands, no matter how much you wish.

If you bothered to go back and read, you'd see that I don't agree with Balon's reasoning here. It is clear, however, that that's what he thought and that it was a part of his reasons for attacking the North.

And yet you bring it up as a valid reason to attack the North.

1) Size is fairly irrelevant when you consider that by far most of Norway was unsettled mountains and forest.

2) What does being an island have to do with anything ? I could have used Denmark as an example, and the number of soldiers would have been even larger.

3) And I argue so do the Iron Islands. Since there is no evidence to support either position, I accept that you disagree with me, but that won't actually change my position.

Heartland of Norway, the south west, is still many times larger than the Iron Islands, and again, vastly different. One does not equal the other.

Denmark is not a group of small islands. It is a group of islands, which has a rather large chunk of mainland. The two are no where near the same. Norse culture does not equal Ironborn culture.

Then explain the number of ships in Euron's fleet. Oh wait, you're the one who thought the Iron Fleet was his entire force. Heh. Just go back and reread everything on the Ironborn, because you clearly haven't been paying attention.

No you need to do that. Why must we explain where every last ship came from? There is the Iron Fleet, made up of warships, and the rest are from nobles, large and small, with larger ones controlling more ships, and smaller ones with one or two, and from those who somehow have small Karvi type ships. That question is like asking someone to explain where Renly got every last soldier.

[Jasta11]

If the Iron islands had 40K men, which is second only to the Reach and the Westerlands by the way, they would have been able to attack and hold many parts of the North, not just two (weak) castles and the Moat. It would also require that, to ferry their entire force, they have (at least) 400 ships capable of holding 100 fighting men each (or whatever equivalent with more, smaller ships), not counting rowers and other non-combatants, which is much larger than Stannis's entire Royal Fleet, and probably almost as large as the Royal Fleet + Redwyne fleet combined.

Given that Martin makes a point of how barren their islands are, and that they were soundly crushed barely a decade ago, the Ironborn being the third most numerous army in the realms makes no sense at all, and is not felt within the story either. An army of 40K that had such a free reign to attack as they did would not liimit themselves to only take coastal settlements and wooden forts, they would have been able to subjugate something like half the North fairly fast if they had such incredible numbers.

Or maybe they are 40K, and Balon is just criminally incompetent at managing them.

[Lord Stark]

Oh, look, you found the Wikipedia article. Here's a tip: Wikipedia doesn't know everything. Indeed, it is frequently wrong, which is why you need to go to the actual sources and read...books. Which I have.

24 "sesser" means 24 pairs of oars. In a warship, there was two men pr. oar. 24x4=96.

Avoid all the other questions, and go for the attacks. Good job.

Yes, when I don't own a book I use wiki, as well as other websites I can find. Guess what, so far all sources match up, as do images. Everything also matches what is in the books. What doesn't match is pretty much anything you post. I'll point out again that in the Laws of Uppland, it is listed that the hundreds, that is the counties, of Uppland, provided as much as 4 longships. with 25 men for a total of 100 men. Which is what Asha has at Deepwood Motte. 100 men, and 4 longships.

So unless your going to post the source, and a source for all to read, I'm going to take all your posts to date, and all future ones as the BS they are. You avoid all questions, and seem just to be trolling.

[Lord Reaver]

If the Iron islands had 40K men, which is second only to the Reach and the Westerlands by the way, they would have been able to attack and hold many parts of the North, not just two (weak) castles and the Moat. It would also require that, to ferry their entire force, they have (at least) 400 ships capable of holding 100 fighting men each (or whatever equivalent with more, smaller ships), not counting rowers and other non-combatants, which is much larger than Stannis's entire Royal Fleet, and probably almost as large as the Royal Fleet + Redwyne fleet combined.

Like I said, Euron's fleet is likely 500-1000 ships. But sure 40 is towards the higher end of my estimate.

Rowers etc. aren't needed. In longships, the men who row also are the men who fight. In essence, there are no (or only a few) no-combatants.

The Redwyne fleet, for comparison is 200 warships and perhaps four times that in other vessels, so roughly 1000 ships. It is said to be comparable in size as the ironborn one.

[Lord Reaver]

I'll point out again that in the Laws of Uppland, it is listed that the hundreds, that is the counties, of Uppland, provided as much as 4 longships. with 25 men for a total of 100 men. Which is what Asha has at Deepwood Motte. 100 men, and 4 longships.

You have read the laws of Uppland then, I take it? Or is this simply more wikipedia?

So unless your going to post the source, and a source for all to read, I'm going to take all your posts to date, and all future ones as the BS they are. You avoid all questions, and seem just to be trolling.

Bit hard, considering my sources are mainly, if not all in Norwegian, but hey, I'll throw in a link to the webpage of a guy who has a fairly decent list of sources: http://home.online.no/~joeolavl/viking/vikingskipstyper.htm#20-sesse

As for avoiding questions, I think the pages show that I have not. Naturally, I have avoided your clearly inflammatory statements, but I really don't see why I should bother replying to those.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I think the objection to the Iron Fleet only covering one side of the continent is tantamount to saying "the Ironborn can't occupy the entire North, so they shouldn't have attacked and/or Balon is stupid." Yes, the Ironborn can't occupy the entire North, any more than they can occupy the entire Westerlands. What they can occupy is the North's western coastline, which is choc-full of trees. and which is entirely defendable with a decent fleet.

[The Marquis de Leech]

And for the three hundredth time, it doesn't matter that Robb is also fighting for independence. If you think he isn't going to win, don't ally yourself with him.

[Jasta11]

Like I said, Euron's fleet is likely 500-1000 ships. But sure 40 is towards the higher end of my estimate.

And the very only estimate we ever get is rumors, which are unreliable by nature. Rumors also said that Robb warged into a wolf and devoured men on the battlefield. Of course if the Ironborn attack several places at once it feels like their armada is big, and ''we lost to a navy of 1000 ships!'' sounds better than, for instance, ''we were so complacent 30 small ships sneaked by us and trounced our meager force while we were busy with 50 others''. Again, if the Ironborn warriors were that numerous, it would be a point in the story, and it isin't. With 40K men (or even 30-ish thousands), they could have attacked and occupied most of the strongholds in the North, rather than just the weaker ones and the Moat.

I also doubt all men both row and fight; for one, this would tire them a lot for battle, and for two it would make the ship completely worthless against any other naval force, as any boarding action immobilizes the ship and losing too much men does too. It's possible if said ships are meant only to raid, I suppose, but it means that without the Iron Fleet itself around to protect them, Euron's forces are incredibly vulnerable to any kind of warship attack.

Plus, from 500 ships to a thousand is a very big margin indeed.

[Lord Reaver]

Well, if you're going to be stubborn about it, here's GRRM himself on the number of Ironborn ships:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Re_Greyjoy_Fleet/

So, depending on how many "major" lords there are, you could have anything between several hundred to over a thousand ships.

If you consider the "noble" houses listed in the wiki as "major", there's 16 listed in the Iron Islands, which would make closer to two thousand ships.

If we cut it down to only the houses commanding an entire island, that's still Harlaw, Goodbrother, Drumm and Blacktyde. That's 400 ships right there. We know that the smaller islands such as Orkmont have 20 ships, so adding in houses of that size, you're pushing 600. And that's without the Iron Fleet.