The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose V

[Armstark]

That being said, to comment on the question of Lady Barbrey Dustin: she is a uniquely powerful woman in this society isn't she? Never remarried. Wears black and no ornaments. She strikes me as well versed in Northern custom and perhaps consulted regarding northern custom to the extent even Roose does not mess with her and seems to submit various ideas/key pieces in the game (I.e. Theon at Barrowton) to her for some sort of approval. She sits in councils and asks questions. She states her opinions and is not afraid. Her home overlooks barrows including the largest Barrow. She has a particular interest in the crypts and bones. I do not believe she is as anti-Stark as she claims (she was definitely against their southern tendencies and alliances) but she is clearly pro North.

Considering what happened to widowed Lady Hornwood the bolded part is rather curious. Lady Dustin is a remarkable woman indeed. Who is the heir to the Barrowlands? Without knowing that it is hard to figure out Barbarey Dustin.

[Metopheles]

Please don't revive another Stark -.-

Brandon is dead, and he is good dead. I like him to stay dead.

And Barbrey hates the Starks. She does not miss them, she wants to grind their bones to flour and blow it in the wind. If you believe she holds any love for them, then you have not read the books, or, frankly, do not understand how a human works...

[Armstark]

Please don't revive another Stark -.-

Brandon is dead, and he is good dead. I like him to stay dead.

And Barbrey hates the Starks. She does not miss them, she wants to grind their bones to flour and blow it in the wind. If you believe she holds any love for them, then you have not read the books, or, frankly, do not understand how a human works...

At first she loved the Starks (and Brandon especially) and wanted to be one of them. Later she came to hate the Starks (and Ned especially) out of grief and bitter disappointment for being put to the side. Is it so hard to believe that she could change her mind again? Just like Theon who realized that all he ever wanted was to be a Stark and who feels remorse now for his actions. If you listen closely to what she tells Theon she already blames Maestar Walys for the southron ambitions which are really the cause of all her disappointments. Not Rickard, not Ned or Brandon but Maester Walys she names as the culprit.

[Modesty Lannister]

Concernig LF's involvement, GRRM was recently asked whether LF had anything to do with the start of the Rebellion. He seemed surprised and replied that LF had a hard time recovering from his wounds, so it seems this theory has to be abandoned. - I don't have the link but I can try to fish it if you'd like.

I've listened to the clip, and the question was - What was LF doing DURING RR? So, the question and the answer do not relate to the period we have been discussing - possible LF - future lady Dustin link BEFORE the RR and their motives for invention of the rape story.

[Amoracchius]

To address your last question first: perhaps you shouldn't read the raising of questions or the positing of alternatives as out-and-out rejection, but as attempts to clarify reasoning that is not yet as clear as it could be or that has some weaknesses based upon the available evidence. There are a range of possible responses to theories put forth on the boards: it needn't be simply outright reject or accept, some people might just wish to consider.

Very well put.

[Hrafntýr]

Considering what happened to widowed Lady Hornwood the bolded part is rather curious. Lady Dustin is a remarkable woman indeed. Who is the heir to the Barrowlands? Without knowing that it is hard to figure out Barbarey Dustin.

True that. We've been given no information as to whether Barbrey has named an heir, at least not to my knowledge. She quarters her sigil with the horse of House Ryswell; perhaps she intends to name one of her brothers as heir?

Metopheles: why the insults? Really, I've not read the books or understand anything of how the human heart works if I think it's possible to harbor ambivalence, which is to say a mix of love and hate, for someone you once may have loved, or at least been infatuated with, after they have left you for someone else? I believe that I've seen lots of evidence for that in real life. Hell, I've even personally experienced it. And indeed Lady Barbrey, at least as she represents things to Theon, likes to keep alive the possibility that Brandon was only following orders in agreeing to marry Cat. She recounts:

The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though...there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together...but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals.

Yes, yes, she goes on to describe her anger that Ned returned with her husband's stallion but not his bones, and her promise to feed Ned's bones to her dogs. But her account of her affair with Brandon and how it ended are not entirely those of a woman scorned, or at least not of one scorned by Brandon; she can put the blame on Rickard and perhaps her own father who will use her for strengthening the position of his house, and then subsequently Ned, as the survivor she resents for surviving.

[Modesty Lannister]

No, you said House Dustin sided with him at the Red Wedding. So far as I can see, she declared for him after he was made Warden of the North, after the Red Wedding. I don't think that Roose included anyone from outside House Bolton in his plans, and I think that Lady Barbrey is quite aware that Roose is making a bid for House Bolton to replace House Stark as overlords of the North. But I think we're given evidence of her ambivalence about House Stark; her line to Theon in the tombs, "We have more in common than you know, my lord," might be taken to suggest that like Theon, she nevertheless still feels tied to them. Incidentally, as I said above, and I keep reiterating, I'm not at all denying that Lady Barbrey may have spread the information about Lyanna's abduction and thus set the ball rolling for Brandon's gruesome murder (though I suspect that if so she might feel guilt or have mixed feelings about this, another thing she'd have in common with Theon). I'll repeat: my only question was: how would she have had information about the Tower of Joy?

The first part of your answer has nothing to do with my theory and it's obvious from the books. The quote you mentioned is just one line from the dialogue with Theon that I've already posted. Your conclusion derived from that line is, imo, wrong, because what she says there is that she once wanted to be one of the Starks, which makes sense since she was Brandon's mistress and certainly hoped he would marry her. And lastly, I already said how she may have got the information in my earlier posts. So, no need to repeat myself endlessly. It's all there on this thread. What I bolded from your post is interesting, because I have exactly the same argument on this thread at some point, saying that she may have wanted to redeem herself for the "cry rape" slander by finding out about Lyanna's location. Are you sure you actually read my posts?

[Ygrain]

I've listened to the clip, and the question was - What was LF doing DURING RR? So, the question and the answer do not relate to the period we have been discussing - possible LF - future lady Dustin link BEFORE the RR and their motives for invention of the rape story.

Indeed, but the whole Lyanna affair started after the duel with Brandon, i.e. when LF was already gravely injured (close to death, GRRM said, if I heard right)

The first part of your answer has nothing to do with my theory and it's obvious from the books. The quote you mentioned is just one line from the dialogue with Theon that I've already posted. Your conclusion derived from that line is, imo, wrong, because what she says there is that she once wanted to be one of the Starks, which makes sense since she was Brandon's mistress and certainly hoped he would marry her. And lastly, I already said how she may have got the information in my earlier posts. So, no need to repeat myself endlessly. It's all there on this thread. What I bolded from your post is interesting, because I have exactly the same argument on this thread at some point, saying that she may have wanted to redeem herself for the "cry rape" slander by finding out about Lyanna's location. Are you sure you actually read my posts?

And are you sure you actually read Hrafntýr's, or mine? You're being unnecessarily rude.

I'll repeat: my only question was: how would she have had information about the Tower of Joy?

How would she find out about Lyanna?

[Metopheles]

At first she loved the Starks (and Brandon especially) and wanted to be one of them. Later she came to hate the Starks (and Ned especially) out of grief and bitter disappointment for being put to the side. Is it so hard to believe that she could change her mind again? Just like Theon who realized that all he ever wanted was to be a Stark and who feels remorse now for his actions. If you listen closely to what she tells Theon she already blames Maestar Walys for the southron ambitions which are really the cause of all her disappointments. Not Rickard, not Ned or Brandon but Maester Walys she names as the culprit.

She wanted to be a Stark because that asshole Brandon fucked her and thus she was no longer a virgin. Try to find a man then. Who knows if that bastard even got her with child. Then honourable Ned takes Lord Dustin, her husband, who is way too young and was not suited for the task, to the dornish mountains and reports he is dead. The Starks took everything from her. She despises them, accept it that there are people in the North that hate the Starks. They aren't so honourable and noble, they are the same like any other northern house.

[Metopheles]

Metopheles: why the insults?

It isn't against you. Have I named you in my post? It was a general comment. And it was not meant as an insult, but I just can't stand the idea that the Starks are so much whitewashed in every frickin thread. And then reviving Brandon...by the woman that hates him the most!? Sorry, not meant as an insult, but just as a comment. an opinion.

[Metopheles]

Why am I and Modesty Lannister suddenly the rude folks?

I mean I can remember some very nice words in the last threads directed at us.

[Firiel Hiren]

Please don't revive another Stark -.-

Brandon is dead, and he is good dead. I like him to stay dead.

So are you saying everyone has to believe what you want to happen? FYI I never said he was gonna be alive.

And Barbrey hates the Starks. She does not miss them, she wants to grind their bones to flour and blow it in the wind.

"If ice can burn then love and hate can mate." - Jojen Reed

If you believe she holds any love for them, then you have not read the books, or, frankly, do not understand how a human works...

That is unkind.. Obviously I have read the books several times, as I just reminded you of a quote from the author to support my position.

[Hrafntýr]

It isn't against you. Have I named you in my post? It was a general comment. And it was not meant as an insult, but I just can't stand the idea that the Starks are so much whitewashed in every frickin thread. And then reviving Brandon...by the woman that hates him the most!? Sorry, not meant as an insult, but just as a comment. an opinion.

Well gee, perhaps I took it that way because I'm the one who two posts above yours was making a case for Lady Barbrey's ambivalence, rather than simple hatred, for the Starks? And anyway, who is whitewashing Starks? And more importantly, who was reviving Brandon? Do you mean the poster who was talking about the possible magic of the barrows of Barrowton? I think he or she was extremely careful not to be argumentative and rather nicely suggested that some readers like to view the books through the lens of magic/cosmic forces. There's certainly enough of a Northern mythos that such an interpretation (which again, he or she was deliberately stating to be a personal interpretation, as part of making a case for the multivalence of the texts) feasible, particularly given all the talk upthread about fire and ice and prophecies and all.

And you think that telling people in a thread devoted to discussing a set of books that they haven't read said books isn't an insult? Okay.

[Metopheles]

Well gee, perhaps I took it that way because I'm the one who two posts above yours was making a case for Lady Barbrey's ambivalence, rather than simple hatred, for the Starks? And anyway, who is whitewashing Starks? And more importantly, who was reviving Brandon? Do you mean the poster who was talking about the possible magic of the barrows of Barrowton? I think he or she was extremely careful not to be argumentative and rather nicely suggested that some readers like to view the books through the lens of magic/cosmic forces. There's certainly enough of a Northern mythos that such an interpretation (which again, he or she was deliberately stating to be a personal interpretation, as part of making a case for the multivalence of the texts) feasible, particularly given all the talk upthread about fire and ice and prophecies and all.

And you think that telling people in a thread devoted to discussing a set of books that they haven't read said books isn't an insult? Okay.

Well I took my time to answer to the posts, and didn't quote anyone, like I do now..

I think anything that gives anything back from a dead person, like stroking the bones and get something from it, "calling him" all seems like a resurrection theme to me.

And I stay with my comment, that when one truly believes that Barbrey loves the Starks, or Brandon, then they haven't read what she said. This was not love she talked about.

But I did not intend it as an insult. Just a statement.

[Firiel Hiren]

Lol, I can't picture myself massaging the knee of my exes crypt statue and babbling about our sex life and how he never wanted to leave me if I hated his guts. I think maybe Lady Dustin turns all her tears to hate to get by and be strong, but I understand that and it seems true to me.

[Metopheles]

So are you saying everyone has to believe what you want to happen? FYI I never said he was gonna be alive.

That is unkind.. Obviously I have read the books several times, as I just reminded you of a quote from the author to support my position.

You made it sound like a wish for him to come back, or a foreshadowing, calling him, anything, it sounded like a resurrection to me.

And if you read the books, and think that Barbrey is in love with Brandon, then give me a quote, please. Because to me, she is the one character in the series that hates them even more than Baelish does.

[Metopheles]

Lol, I can't picture myself massaging the knee of my exes crypt statue and babbling about our sex life and how he never wanted to leave me if I hated his guts. I think maybe Lady Dustin turns all her tears to hate to get by and be strong, but I understand that and it seems true to me.

You completely leave out the part where she tells that the Stark brothers completely ruined her life. The one fucks her and denies her any chance to marry into a decent House by this, runs off, and the other kills her husband by extend.

[Modesty Lannister]

Indeed, but the whole Lyanna affair started after the duel with Brandon, i.e. when LF was already gravely injured (close to death, GRRM said, if I heard right)

And are you sure you actually read Hrafntýr's, or mine? You're being unnecessarily rude.

How would she find out about Lyanna?

1. LF was injured BEFORE, not during RR, which started some time AFTER Starks deaths in KL, AFTER Aerys II asked for Ned's and Robert's head. The question was: What did LF do during RR? And the answer was along the lines - nothing much, sitting at home recovering after having been kick out Riverrun by Hoster Tully. You are clearly wrong, so why are you insisting on this when the topic of our discussion is the "rape story", which led Brandon to go and search RT in KL? I'm not sure what you want to achieve.

2. I read all the posts on this thread and I am not rude at all. What gave you that idea?

3. I said it's on the thread. Now, you ARE being rude. It's all there, loud and clear. All you have to do is read it. I really do not know why you are doing this???

[Hrafntýr]

And if you read the books, and think that Barbrey is in love with Brandon, then give me a quote, please. Because to me, she is the one character in the series that hates them even more than Baelish does.

See post 309 above, with the quote from Barbrey in which she asserts (promises) that Brandon never loved Cat, that he told her so on their last night together. I never said that she is "in love with" Brandon, but I am making a case for her ambivalence. She doesn't say, "He told me so, on our last night together, that lying sack of shit." Her entire account is rife with ambivalence about Brandon, including that bloody sword business. But this is all irrelevant, really, since I agree that an ambivalent Barbrey could still have spread rumours about Lyanna in an attempt to get back at her lover, or, perhaps better (in my estimation), at Rickard with his precious family and his Southron ambitions. My only question was about the Tower of Joy info.

[Hrafntýr]

3. I said it's on the thread. Now, you ARE being rude. It's all there, loud and clear. All you have to do is read it. I really do not know why you are doing this???

Sorry, but you really didn't, I have to agree with Ygrain, and I'm really NOT trying to be rude. You said something about following the connection between Lord Dustin's presence at the ToJ back to Lady Barbrey, but when and how do you think that she communicated this info to her husband? If I understood correctly, you suggested that Benjen may have had something to do with it, and so I was following up on this suggestion to ask: are you hypothesizing (1) that Lyanna was "abducted" from Winterfell; (2) that because she was close to Benjen she shared her plans with him; and (3) that Benjen shared this info with Lady Barbrey, who then spread the rumour, as revenge against the Starks? If so, then surely she must have spread only the rumour of the abduction, rather than the ToJ location, since why would they have gone to war if they knew where to find Lyanna? So when did she reveal the ToJ location, and how?

I really have no way of trying to communicate to you that I'm not asking this in a theory bashing way, you seem to read any questions whatsoever as that kind of attack; this isn't an attack. I'm trying to help think through theories. There are some interesting possibilities here. For example, if Benjen "knew" all along where Lyanna was, he would feel incredible guilt, since had he revealed this info right away it would have prevented his brother's death (and a war, incidentally). This might be an additional motivation for him to take the Black.