Oathkeeper and Widow's wail - Lightbringer

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

This is not a theory of mine but I'm going to do a copy/paste of another's theory from another site. here it is:

"I just had a thought today about Ice, Oathkeeper, Widow's Wail, and Lightbringer.

They say Lightbringer is the red sword of heroes, a flaming sword. And the legends goes that the sword was forged three times. Now, I realize this is referring to the original lightbringer, and may not be the case for the new one. I also rather like the theory about the Night's Watch being lightbringer, but that's not what I was discuss in this post.

I'll start with Ice. Ice is a valyrian steel great sword, that's roughly 400 years old. The first forging of Lightbringer goes that Azor Ahai tried to temper the sword with water. Hence, Ice.

In aSoS, Tywin has the sword reforged into two cousin swords, Oathkeeper, and Widow's Wail. The blades are described as having black and red ripples. Red swords, forged by a lion. In the case of Lightbringer, Azor Ahai's second attempt involving piercing a lion with the sword in order to temper it.

And if Ice was reforged once, it's possible that Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail might be reforged yet again, to make Ice anew, and perhaps with it's red ripples, and Jon's Targaryen heritage, the new sword could be Ice and Fire, a red sword of Azor Ahai. That only leaves the whole Nissa Nissa thing. Ygritte, the likely Nissa Nissa of Jon, is already dead, and the sword is not like to be reforged by Jon himself. More likely that he'd get it later, after it's reforged by someone else. Probably the same guy as before, but maybe it's a woman that will commission the blades to be reforged, and it's possible that doing so might lead to her death. Or perhaps something different entirely occurs.

And this is where it gets really tinfoilery. UnCat gains possession of Oathkeeper from Jaime/Brienne. She joins forces with Howland Reed to kill some Freys, and learns about Jon's true heritage. Thinking to do the right thing, she sends Robb's men north to find him.... and also gives the kiss of life/fire to Oathkeeper, taking her life, and creating Lightbringer in the process.

Then Howland Reed heads on north with Robb's messengers to give Jon a crown and a flaming sword of heroes.

I wouldn't put much stock by this theory, but all of it fits together almost too nicely. I figured I would mention it at least, and see what you all think.

TL;DR:

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  First forging of Lightbringer -> Ice (tempered by water)

  
  
  
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  Second forging of Lightbringer -> Oathkeeper/Widow's Wail (tempered by a lion, Tywin)

  
  
  
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  Third reforging of Lightbringer -> Lightbringer (UnCat gives Oathkeeper the kiss of life/fire to make Lightbringer)."

  
  
  

So what do you all think about this? can't say its the best theory but its worth mentioning. additional information from my input is the starks have the blood of the first men and go back to the first night so possibly Azor Ahai was a stark and that's where Ice came from.

The only flaw in this theory is that Ice is a valyrian steel sword so can't possibly be lightbringer unless AA can turn any sword wielded by him because he's the 'chosen one' into lightbringer. Aside from this any sword can't be lightbringer except lightbringer ITSELF.

also here are pictures I posted on twitter of Oathkeeper and Widow's wail from the show:

Oathkeeper - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlXmI6FCMAEVU4W.jpg:large

Widow's wail - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bjq0J1jCYAAFbS-.jpg:large

This is non-relevant but feel free to follow me on Twitter :) - https://twitter.com/TheKingIsh or @TheKingIsh

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

*bump*

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Intriguing! If a new Lightbringer must come into being, Ice is as good a candidate as any. I nominate Gendry for the reforging. He trained under the man who split Ice into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, so he might know how to do it.

Based on this would Catelyn giving the kiss to the sword make her Nissa Nissa, in a way?

Worth noting that the red in O and WW was added by Tobho Mott and is thus a Lannister contribution. Ice was just dark steel before it was melted down. Doesn't change anything, but it's an interesting point that the "red sword" might not have been possible without the war with the Lannisters.

I'd still like to see the original Ice found. It should be around the same age as Dawn (which I think may be the sword of The Great Other).

[Rose Tyler]

Love this theory right up to the UnCat part. I really want Mel to play the part of NN but that's just wishful spiteful thinking on my part.

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

Love this theory right up to the UnCat part. I really want Mel to play the part of NN but that's just wishful spiteful thinking on my part.

it doesn't have to be uncat. I'm with the melisandre boat because Uncat is so far down south that it's unlikely. Melisandre being the one with the kiss is more likely but as I said it's not my theory! so feel free to interpret it in your own way.

Intriguing! If a new Lightbringer must come into being, Ice is as good a candidate as any. I nominate Gendry for the reforging. He trained under the man who split Ice into Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, so he might know how to do it.

Based on this would Catelyn giving the kiss to the sword make her Nissa Nissa, in a way?

Worth noting that the red in O and WW was added by Tobho Mott and is thus a Lannister contribution. Ice was just dark steel before it was melted down. Doesn't change anything, but it's an interesting point that the "red sword" might not have been possible without the war with the Lannisters.

I'd still like to see the original Ice found. It should be around the same age as Dawn (which I think may be the sword of The Great Other).

Yea I also had the feeling it would be Gendry reforging it!

[Hippocras]

My theory is similar but different.

I do NOT thing that Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper will be put back together again.

Instead, I think that Widow's Wail will be merged with Blackfyre when fAegon takes King's Landing, after WW being used to kill either Tommen or Myrcella. This merging will be done in part to conceal that Aegon is a fake, while giving him a new "dynasty" sword. But then when fAegon is defeated, the sword will be recovered by someone who knows it was originally Ice and knows it was supposed to be returned. Like for example Brienne or Jamie, or Tyrion. Then it will go to Jon, who is himself the joining of houses Stark and Targaryen.

The final step will then be the Nissa Nissa thing, so he will have to kill someone with it I suppose. Maybe a White Walker version of someone he cares about.

[furiousmoose0]

Intriguing. I like it, but I think that it is more of a metaphor than something to be taken literally. I have been convinced by "http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103266-r-l-lightbringer-updated-with-part-ii/"] this thread that Jon is Lightbringer. I think this theory brings in an esoteric style that GRRM enjoys, combined with a complexity that I hope he has been introducing.

[Hippocras]

Intriguing. I like it, but I think that it is more of a metaphor than something to be taken literally. I have been convinced by "http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103266-r-l-lightbringer-updated-with-part-ii/"] this thread that Jon is Lightbringer. I think this theory brings in an esoteric style that GRRM enjoys, combined with a complexity that I hope he has been introducing.

Jon is not Lightbringer.

Lightbringer is a sword.

[furiousmoose0]

Hmmm.....guessing you didnt read the thread or, since I butchered my first posting due to my using a phone, didnt see the link. The legend is of a sword you are correct. But as the NW oath clearly states every member is "a sword in the darkness".

[Hippocras]

...the sword imagery of the books is unmistakable.

There is Ice, Needle, Lion's Tooth, Brightroar, Heartsbane, Dawn, Longclaw, Dark Sister, Blackfyre ....

For ALL of them, the paths they take are deeply symbolic.

So as far as I am concerned all of the non-sword theories of Lightbringer are incredibly weak, unnecessary, and reduce all this previous symbolism to irrelevance.

Lightbringer is a sword. Not a person or a beast or anything except a sword.

[furiousmoose0]

Hmmm.....guessing you didnt read the thread or, since I butchered my first posting due to my using a phone, didnt see the link. The legend is of a sword you are correct. But as the NW oath clearly states every member is "a sword in the darkness".

Jon is not Lightbringer.

Lightbringer is a sword.

Meant to quote you in previous comment....I am a terrible person for wasting honest, hardworking, valuable members of society's precious time for reading this completely meaningless comment. Unless you are Hippocras. Which I am sure you are all of these things, but for you this hopefully isn't a complete waste. As I was answering your question. Which maybe you think is worthless, in which case it would still be a waste for you....maybe even more so......sorry

[Hippocras]

I didn't ask you a question, so nothing to answer.

There is absolutely no need for or point to convoluted theories of Lighbringer being anything but a sword. After all, Lightbringer is not the only piece of the story that needs to play out. It is simply th part of the story and prophesy that has to do with the sword.

AAR is the person who wields it, whoever that may be.

Without the sword, all of the hard work GRRM put into creating complex sword histories and family symbolisms would be meaningless.

[furiousmoose0]

I didn't ask you a question, so nothing to answer.

There is absolutely no need for or point to convoluted theories of Lighbringer being anything but a sword. After all, Lightbringer is not the only piece of the story that needs to play out. It is simply th part of the story and prophesy that has to do with the sword.

AAR is the person who wields it, whoever that may be.

Without the sword, all of the hard work GRRM put into creating complex sword histories and family symbolisms would be meaningless.

How so? We have a few histories of a few swords (some complex, some simple) which are almost exclusively relevent to their familial heritage. As far as that goes, I fail to see how a legend that is primarily about an ancient hero (Lightbringer being an extension of AAR) could affect something that is in the basic construct of Westeros. Even more so considering that the legends of Westeros talk of tPtwP or tLH. I will grant you it's a little far fetch on first hearing the notion. But once considering all the evidence, it has a structural design that would make religion envious. I would at least urge you to read the premise before discouraging the notion.

[Hippocras]

Question:

AAR wields Lightbringer.

If Lightbringer is Jon, who wields Jon?

Doesn't make any sense does it?

So no, your argument is reasonable if you think Jon is AAR, but it is convoluted stretching to say Jon is Lightbringer.

[KINGpanther]

Question:

AAR wields Lightbringer.

If Lightbringer is Jon, who wields Jon?

quote]

Dany maybe.

[Hippocras]

Dany maybe.

:D

I see. How exactly does she do that....

[NotSoSilentSister]

Polyvalence, people. Ambiguity. It's not a rare thing in literature. My guess is that, just as there are going to be various candidates for AA by the end of the story, there are going to be various candidates for Lightbringer, neither conclusively validated, neither conclusively disproven and we will argue about this long after the last book has been published.

[Hippocras]

Polyvalence, people. Ambiguity. It's not a rare thing in literature. My guess is that, just as there are going to be various candidates for AA by the end of the story, there are going to be various candidates for Lightbringer, neither conclusively validated, neither conclusively disproven and we will argue about this long after the last book has been published.

Well I am actually fine with that. Multiple Lightbringers and multiple AARs are ok with me.

But I still fundamentally believe that GRRM put all that amazing sword imagery in these books for a reason.

Ice's destruction followed the destruction of house Stark, but the sword still exists it is just in hiding, just as the Starks are in hiding.

Next comes the tempering by plunging into the heart of a lion. So a Lannister is gonna be pierced.

There is a clear path, showing the Lightbringer story coming true, with real swords.

[TheHouseHB]

Howland giving Jon a reforged Ice would mirror Lord Elrond in Lord of the Rings giving Aragorn Isildur's reforged sword Narsil. What a way for Howland to finally appear in the series if this theory is correct.

[Hippocras]

Howland giving Jon a reforged Ice would mirror Lord Elrond in Lord of the Rings giving Aragorn Isildur's reforged sword Narsil. What a way for Howland to finally appear in the series if this theory is correct.

I really think it is somewhat correct. Though like I said I do not think that Ice will be put back together again but rather that one or both of its parts will be merged with other swords. It just simply fits the story better.

This is not a story about the destruction and reunification of House Stark after all, but a song of Ice and Fire.

So Ice is just one of the halves, and the other half is a Fire sword. Blackfyre.