Greyjoys Vs Arryns

[Cayrouse]

If I'm jot mistaken the Arron's are quite competent at sea. Having sunk the technologically superior targaryen fleet during the conquest preventing an all out conquest by sea. So id reckon they stand a reasonable chance at sea if the IB fleet is arrives in small groips lke victRions and the golden company ships do. And yes by land the iron born are more or less screwed because archers and walls , cavalry and steep hills and castles which the iron born cannot take because they have no drive equipment.

[The Marquis de Leech]

We have no idea if the Arryns still have a naval force. Even if they do, it'd be squashed by the Iron Fleet.

The big problem the Ironborn face isn't actually the prospect of a land battle (they wouldn't commit to one). The issue is one of logistics (how to maintain supply lines during the blockade of Gulltown) and communications (how to contact the hill tribes to gang up on the Arryns).

[Lord Reaver]

If I'm jot mistaken the Arron's are quite competent at sea. Having sunk the technologically superior targaryen fleet during the conquest preventing an all out conquest by sea.

The conquest was 300 years ago. There is nothing in the books to indicate the Vale has any fleet worth mentioning, let alone anything that holds a candle to the Iron Fleet (there were only two comparable navies, that of the Royal and Redwyne Fleets, and one of those is gone).

So id reckon they stand a reasonable chance at sea if the IB fleet is arrives in small groips lke victRions and the golden company ships do.

That would be the case if the Ironborn came across the narrow sea, and were broken up by storms. If they hold to the coast, there is no reason the fleet would break up.

And yes by land the iron born are more or less screwed because archers and walls , cavalry and steep hills and castles which the iron born cannot take because they have no drive equipment.

Hunger is more effective when taking castles than siege equipment.

"Coward" is just a word bandied about by those who lack common sense enough to realize that attacking where your enemy is weak is actually a good idea.

[The Frosted King]

This entire exercise is futile.

Gulltown is one of the great cities Of westeros.

Its not as simple as the ironborn just landing and burning.

That worked in the west due to proximity.

You think none of the southron lords would notice the iron fleet sailing around the continent?

A invasion this stupid requires the full mobilisation of the ironborn, because reinforcing them from the other side of the continent is untenable.

Lets say the Arryns have the luck of the Starks, and Gulltown falls.

Then what?

You think all the soldiers will fight to the last to save the city, or do they fall back to Runestone, which is extremely close?

And have a proven commander in Bronze Yohn?

I seriously doubt they'd take Gulltown.

It would require their entire military coptic, and would doom them even if they were successful.

Burning a fleet isn't taking a city.

Ask Stannis.

Or the Targ shipwrecks on the sea floor.

Or Euron in Lannisport.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The Southron lords (if they had good intelligence) might notice the Iron Fleet on the move, but they'd have no idea where it was headed (seriously, would you expect the Ironborn to bypass every other port, plus the Free Cities?).

I think the best option would be to take the Three Sisters as a base. Within raiding distance of Gulltown, and a prime location for generalised piracy. Find a way to get information to the hill tribes, then sink every ship that comes within range of the Vale's coast. Set Gulltown aflame, then dash away and grab a few sheep for supper.

[Lord Reaver]

You think none of the southron lords would notice the iron fleet sailing around the continent?

The title of the thread is Greyjoys vs. Arryns, not Greyjoys vs. everyone else. There's no need to debate that, we all know how that turned out.

So, assuming anything about support/supplies etc. from the rest of Westeros for the Arryns, but not for the Greyjoys is shifting the premises of the discussion, to a point where it's really pointless to have a discussion at all.

Then what?

You move on. Next big town/settlement/castle. Rinse and repeat. If the Valemen refuse to come out, you simply pillage the entire coast, if they do come, you mass your forces to take them piecemeal.

I seriously doubt they'd take Gulltown.

It would require their entire military coptic, and would doom them even if they were successful.

See, usually people feel the need to back up claims such as these. Is there any reason why you think Gulltown would be so hard to take ? Have we heard anything about the city's defenses being particularly impressive, or it's Lord having a strong military force ?

[The Frosted King]

The title of the thread is Greyjoys vs. Arryns, not Greyjoys vs. everyone else. There's no need to debate that, we all know how that turned out.

So, assuming anything about support/supplies etc. from the rest of Westeros for the Arryns, but not for the Greyjoys is shifting the premises of the discussion, to a point where it's really pointless to have a discussion at all.

You move on. Next big town/settlement/castle. Rinse and repeat. If the Valemen refuse to come out, you simply pillage the entire coast, if they do come, you mass your forces to take them piecemeal.

See, usually people feel the need to back up claims such as these. Is there any reason why you think Gulltown would be so hard to take ? Have we heard anything about the city's defenses being particularly impressive, or it's Lord having a strong military force ?

Ok, lets.

You state they'll take the next castle/settlement and move on.

Thats simply not feasible for the ironborn.

Everywhere they've gone successfully, required most of the manpower elsewhere.

If the manpower is at home, what makes it likely that a repeat of the spectacle of Seagard isn't eminent?

Asha stated that they're not ones for sieges and shieldwalls.

They're not gonna walk into Gulltown, and at the first ship landing with men at arms riders and ravens will be going to the nearest powers.

They gain the Harbor, the city remains. The city falls, the vale itself is roused, and its much more congested than the vast north.

The lords declarant alone could probably smash them.

It would doom them.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Um, hence the idea of setting up on the Three Sisters, and smashing and grabbing along the coast? They're not going to sit there and wait for the Vale to march over and squash them.

[Lord Reaver]

Um, hence the idea of setting up on the Three Sisters, and smashing and grabbing along the coast? They're not going to sit there and wait for the Vale to march over and squash them.

I give up. Trying to argue tactics and strategy with this bunch seems futile. Must be because they dismiss anything beyond "charge straight at the enemy's full strength" as "cowardly".

[The Marquis de Leech]

I give up. Trying to argue tactics and strategy with this bunch seems futile. Must be because they dismiss anything beyond "charge straight at the enemy's full strength" as "cowardly".

It's bad enough having to explain to Stark fanboys that Moat Cailin means nothing if you've got a fleet.

[Boarsbane]

The Southron lords (if they had good intelligence) might notice the Iron Fleet on the move, but they'd have no idea where it was headed (seriously, would you expect the Ironborn to bypass every other port, plus the Free Cities?).

I think the best option would be to take the Three Sisters as a base. Within raiding distance of Gulltown, and a prime location for generalised piracy. Find a way to get information to the hill tribes, then sink every ship that comes within range of the Vale's coast. Set Gulltown aflame, then dash away and grab a few sheep for supper.

Runestone is close enough to Gulltown to support it, the Ironborn can't take a city like Gulltown or a fortress like Runestone. They prefer wooden forts and ruins, they can't take anything of worth in the Vale. They can slaughter peasants and steal pebbles from the coast but they will never beat the Arryns.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Here is a map of the Vale:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/2/2d/The_Vale.jpg

That's a lot of coastline to defend, with no naval strength, and with the only land route for bringing in fresh supplies blocked by hill tribes. The Ironborn can hit and run, anywhere, any time. Who needs to capture mainland fortresses and towns? Capturing things just slow you down - easier to pillage, then burn anything you can't loot. Then go back to the Sisters and get drunk.

In short, they don't need to beat the Arryns. As long as they don't lose to the Arryns (and the Royal Fleet doesn't turn up), time is on the Ironborn side. They're not the ones starving in their impregnable fortresses.

[Boarsbane]

Here is a map of the Vale:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/2/2d/The_Vale.jpg

That's a lot of coastline to defend, with no naval strength, and with the only land route for bringing in fresh supplies blocked by hill tribes. The Ironborn can hit and run, anywhere, any time. Who needs to capture mainland fortresses and towns? Capturing things just slow you down - easier to pillage, then burn anything you can't loot. Then go back to the Sisters and get drunk.

In short, they don't need to beat the Arryns. As long as they don't lose to the Arryns (and the Royal Fleet doesn't turn up), time is on the Ironborn side. They're not the ones starving in their impregnable fortresses.

There isn't much worth taking on the coast, and most that is of value is guarded by castles. The Valemen don't have to worry about the hilltribes so long as they bring in the supplies with escorts.

The Arryns aren't starving either, they can fish and the valleys are far out of the Ironborn's reach plus they can buy from the Riverlands if they really need to. The Ironborn on the other hand are going to be living off fish, how long until the raiders start to get tired of the shitty loot and fish stew?

[Roddy the Ruin]

If we are talking solely Vale vs Iron Islands it could possibly go both ways. But it would never happen like that. The Vale have allies, the Iron islands don't.

[Cayrouse]

I give up. Trying to argue tactics and strategy with this bunch seems futile. Must be because they dismiss anything beyond "charge straight at the enemy's full strength" as "cowardly".

Hey I don't honk I used the term coward anywhere and I'd appreciate the opportunity to talk tactics with you. As a Frenchman I've learned that charging the enemy head on is silly and gory is a stupid immaterial concept( as is honour). That is one of the IB primary strength against the Arryns . They'll fight dirty. But let us suppose several things. 1. Before any land battle there must be a naval battle( which the grey joys are almost guaranteed to win) but I imagine that it would be a phyletic victory. Iron born fleet needs to carry soldiers and sailors for landings and any IB ship lost would be more detrimental than any vale loss because reagents would die in addition to sailors and replacements would take much longer to muster ( if we assume the fight takes place in Vale waters). Then there's the question of sieges, sure starving people is smarter than assaulting especially if you are IB but this is Westeros where settlements are supplied for year long winters. Plus this gives the vale time to muster troops. Nothing is a better target for cavalry ( which the vale is famous for) than seige lines. Combined arms is a useful strategy I hope you'd agree but IB are short on archers dislike cavalry and can't afford heavy armoured men except victarion which puts the at a disadvantage. Thnen there's the issue of harbours the vale can reshoot and repair their fleets from wicks den, Gulltown, sisterton and maybe Coldwater burn . There's also the advantage of knowing the land and holding the high ground in most cases. Even if the IB take hills and meet the vale forces there they then becom drive able and cannot fully exploit the advantage of the high ground without large numbers of archers or cavalry wouldn't you agree?

[The Marquis de Leech]

There isn't much worth taking on the coast, and most that is of value is guarded by castles. The Valemen don't have to worry about the hilltribes so long as they bring in the supplies with escorts.

The Arryns aren't starving either, they can fish and the valleys are far out of the Ironborn's reach plus they can buy from the Riverlands if they really need to. The Ironborn on the other hand are going to be living off fish, how long until the raiders start to get tired of the shitty loot and fish stew?

Every guy in those escorts is a guy who isn't available to defend the coastline. And there'll need to be an endless series of them, because the sea and environs are no longer safe to access. That'll cost money, both to pay for the men, and the goods (the Riverlands ain't giving them stuff for free). The price of bread will accordingly skyrocket... which means the smallfolk starve. Added bonus is if the Ironborn find a way of giving the hill tribes better weaponry and armour. Heck, the Ironborn can sneak up the Bay of Crabs, and go after the food supply lines themselves north of Saltpans.

Meanwhile, the anywhere/anytime nature of the raids mean the local lords end up with smallfolk squatting in their basements and eating through their supplies, all the while complaining about how useless their leaders are. The lords themselves can only move around if they take a fully armed force with them. In short, the Ironborn can create merry hell, and there's nothing the Arryns can do to stop them.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Hey I don't honk I used the term coward anywhere and I'd appreciate the opportunity to talk tactics with you. As a Frenchman I've learned that charging the enemy head on is silly and gory is a stupid immaterial concept( as is honour). That is one of the IB primary strength against the Arryns . They'll fight dirty. But let us suppose several things. 1. Before any land battle there must be a naval battle( which the grey joys are almost guaranteed to win) but I imagine that it would be a phyletic victory. Iron born fleet needs to carry soldiers and sailors for landings and any IB ship lost would be more detrimental than any vale loss because reagents would die in addition to sailors and replacements would take much longer to muster ( if we assume the fight takes place in Vale waters). Then there's the question of sieges, sure starving people is smarter than assaulting especially if you are IB but this is Westeros where settlements are supplied for year long winters. Plus this gives the vale time to muster troops. Nothing is a better target for cavalry ( which the vale is famous for) than seige lines. Combined arms is a useful strategy I hope you'd agree but IB are short on archers dislike cavalry and can't afford heavy armoured men except victarion which puts the at a disadvantage. Thnen there's the issue of harbours the vale can reshoot and repair their fleets from wicks den, Gulltown, sisterton and maybe Coldwater burn . There's also the advantage of knowing the land and holding the high ground in most cases. Even if the IB take hills and meet the vale forces there they then becom drive able and cannot fully exploit the advantage of the high ground without large numbers of archers or cavalry wouldn't you agree?

Who needs a siege? Let's just launch raid after raid.

[Boarsbane]

Every guy in those escorts is a guy who isn't available to defend the coastline. And there'll need to be an endless series of them, because the sea and environs are no longer safe to access. That'll cost money, both to pay for the men, and the goods (the Riverlands ain't giving them stuff for free). The price of bread will accordingly skyrocket... which means the smallfolk starve. Added bonus is if the Ironborn find a way of giving the hill tribes better weaponry and armour. Heck, the Ironborn can sneak up the Bay of Crabs, and go after the food supply lines themselves north of Saltpans.

Meanwhile, the anywhere/anytime nature of the raids mean the local lords end up with smallfolk squatting in their basements and eating through their supplies, all the while complaining about how useless their leaders are. The lords themselves can only move around if they take a fully armed force with them. In short, the Ironborn can create merry hell, and there's nothing the Arryns can do to stop them.

The Ironborn are going to run at the sight of armed men so losing men to an escort isn't really that big of a deal. You still act as if the coast is where the bulk of the food is going to be and that is simply not true, it is the valleys and the valleys are inland and protected by the mountains. And if the Ironborn go after the escorts, good, the knights of the Vale will cut them down like the dogs they are.

Unless you think the Ironborn plan to permanently relocate to the Sisters, they are either going to have to beat the Arryns in the field or just give up because the captains are going to get tired of it eventually. We all know they don't have the guts to take on the Arryns in battle so their little invasion will amount to nothing more than petty raiding on the coast and eventually retreating back to the Iron Islands.

The argument is pointless, if the Arryns attack the Greyjoys the Greyjoys will win, if the Greyjoys attack the Arryns the Arryns will win. It all depends on who is invading who.

[Lord Reaver]

1. Before any land battle there must be a naval battle( which the grey joys are almost guaranteed to win) but I imagine that it would be a phyletic victory. Iron born fleet needs to carry soldiers and sailors for landings and any IB ship lost would be more detrimental than any vale loss because reagents would die in addition to sailors and replacements would take much longer to muster ( if we assume the fight takes place in Vale waters).

You misunderstand a fundamental fact about the Ironborn (and the Norse vikings they are based on) naval force: Their sailors ARE the soldiers. This is both a strength and a liability (as you're not very maneuvrable once battle has been joined). In the scenario you paint, however, it means that yes, some Ironborn soldiers will die before landing. The losses on the opposite side is pretty much guaranteed to be greater, and likely much more so.

But yes, the Ironborn would be a fairly finite army. Then again, as we see from Tywin's men, mustering a new force even when on your own ground isn't such an easy matter either.

Then there's the question of sieges, sure starving people is smarter than assaulting especially if you are IB but this is Westeros where settlements are supplied for year long winters. Plus this gives the vale time to muster troops. Nothing is a better target for cavalry ( which the vale is famous for) than seige lines.

See this is the point. Dagmer thinks Theon is crazy when he suggests he should lay siege. It's not the way the Ironborn do things. They aren't going to set up vulnerable siege lines, they'll just put out enough soldiers to prevent any traffic into or out of the city. If the valemen choose to muster and attack, they can bring in their forces and crush them, or move somewhere else, depending on the strength of the valemen.

[The Frosted King]

Here is a map of the Vale:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/2/2d/The_Vale.jpg

That's a lot of coastline to defend, with no naval strength, and with the only land route for bringing in fresh supplies blocked by hill tribes. The Ironborn can hit and run, anywhere, any time. Who needs to capture mainland fortresses and towns? Capturing things just slow you down - easier to pillage, then burn anything you can't loot. Then go back to the Sisters and get drunk.

In short, they don't need to beat the Arryns. As long as they don't lose to the Arryns (and the Royal Fleet doesn't turn up), time is on the Ironborn side. They're not the ones starving in their impregnable fortresses.

No, they're the ones constantly braving harsh waters for nothing.

Its their northern invasion all over again.

The hill tribes are a tiny issue that really only plague the high road.

And without Lannister promise fulfillment, with terrible arms and tactics.

They set up base on the sisters, they ignore the actual places of wealth, they get waited out.

There's tons of food coming from the actual east, why do you think the valemen starve?

Not to mention, the Ironborn likely lose a portion of their ship carried manpower taking the sisters, as the pirate lords of the past proved.