Modesty Lannister Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 None of them proposed an alternative. They stayed out of Tywin's way. Staying out of Tywin's way does not equal backing him up. Also, Baratheons were searching for a suitable wife for Rhaegar oversees. How is that backing Tywin? Princess of Dorne offered a marriage between Cersei and Oberyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Each other! As I said above, without a basis for unity, the seven kingdoms would have reverted to the era of constant war between each other, just as we see with Myr, Lys and Tyrosh. The alliances would have prevented that and given the kingdoms a new deterrent against warring with each other in the absence of dragons to enforce peace. That idea would have merit if everyone intermarried as I said earlier. But, that was not on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin's Ghost Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Does it have to have been an active plan to change the order of things? Couldn't it have been a safety measure? If something happened to the Targaryen rule, or if a foreign or internal threat arose, there would be a league of united leaders in place to counter impending disasters. Since dragons had been gone for almost a century I fail to see a trigger event that suddenly would make these Lords scramble to unite. What was the deciding factor? While Aerys might've shown tendencies of madness early on I doubt that anyone could foresee the extent of his insanity. In addition, they probably thought that Rhaegar would prove a soothing factor and eventually a good and competent king. Why was there suddenly a need for an alliance? Why no allience when sickly Jaehaerys II was king? Or even when Aerys I was king with Bloodraven as Hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 That idea would have merit if everyone intermarried as I said earlier. But, that was not on the table.They seem to have been trying quite hard actually to include all regions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Does it have to have been an active plan to change the order of things? Couldn't it have been a safety measure? If something happened to the Targaryen rule, or if a foreign or internal threat arose, there would be a league of united leaders in place to counter impending disasters. Since dragons had been gone for almost a century I fail to see a trigger event that suddenly would make these Lords scramble to unite. What was the deciding factor? While Aerys might've shown tendencies of madness early on I doubt that anyone could foresee the extent of his insanity. In addition, they probably thought that Rhaegar would prove a soothing factor and eventually a good and competent king. Why was there suddenly a need for an alliance? Why no allience when sickly Jaehaerys II was king? Or even when Aerys I was king with Bloodraven as Hand?I believe Duskendale was the provocation, and Aerys was clearly going mad when these alliances were being arranged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Staying out of Tywin's way does not equal backing him up. Also, Baratheons were searching for a suitable wife for Rhaegar oversees. How is that backing Tywin? Princess of Dorne offered a marriage between Cersei and Oberyn.They didn't find anyone overseas, conveniently, did they?Yes, the princess offered and was snubbed by Tywin. That is a key moment when tensions started to build and disintegrate potential alliances, I agree. But the South was still on the table in other ways, and the Northern lords were including Tywin in their arrangements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 I believe Duskendale was the provocation, and Aerys was clearly going mad when these alliances were being arranged. Whose provocation? Why a need for provocation when you claim the alliance was a deterrent and nothing more? Aerys was a good king before Duskendale. Why the need to humiliate him and keep him prisoner if there were no war plans what so ever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 They didn't find anyone overseas, conveniently, did they?Yes, the princess offered and was snubbed by Tywin. That is a key moment when tensions started to build and disintegrate potential alliances, I agree. But the South was still on the table in other ways, and the Northern lords were including Tywin in their arrangements.And now, I'm at loss about what you actually disagree with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the conquoring bastard25 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Staying out of Tywin's way does not equal backing him up. Also, Baratheons were searching for a suitable wife for Rhaegar oversees. How is that backing Tywin? Princess of Dorne offered a marriage between Cersei and Oberyn. actually it does back up Tywin as they didn't find a bride in Volantis but I know that there were suitable match as Oberyn got Lady Nam, off of a Volantis lady of the best birth. So there were some suitable women available. Does it have to have been an active plan to change the order of things? Couldn't it have been a safety measure? If something happened to the Targaryen rule, or if a foreign or internal threat arose, there would be a league of united leaders in place to counter impending disasters. Since dragons had been gone for almost a century I fail to see a trigger event that suddenly would make these Lords scramble to unite. What was the deciding factor? While Aerys might've shown tendencies of madness early on I doubt that anyone could foresee the extent of his insanity. In addition, they probably thought that Rhaegar would prove a soothing factor and eventually a good and competent king. Why was there suddenly a need for an alliance? Why no allience when sickly Jaehaerys II was king? Or even when Aerys I was king with Bloodraven as Hand? Duskendale was the changing factor. I don't think that people realized just what Aerys did. He ordered the death of an entire family. Then as a show of mercy he granted Ser Barristan and saved one. This boy watched his entire family destroyed in a fit of madness. The other lords would have to wonder if their turn would come and would their families be save. He was trying to emulate Tywin and came off just a cruel. The realm would have to wonder whom would be safe. As Tywin as also killed and slaughter, torn down 2 families that displeased him, whose to say he won't do it again. OR the king for that matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Whose provocation? Why a need for provocation when you claim the alliance was a deterrent and nothing more? Aerys was a good king before Duskendale. Why the need to humiliate him and keep him prisoner if there were no war plans what so ever?Whoa!Duskendale was not some grand conspiracy. It was a single rebellious house in the Crownlands.Provocation for the UNEASE with the state of affairs - the reason for the lords recognizing that the peace was fragile. Hence the need to make alliances to preserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintwalker Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Aegon V's children married all for love after the Dance and all of the Blackfyre rebellions save the Ninepenny kings. Yes they married for love, but who was Jaehaerys wife !? Duncan married Jenny and lost his claim to the throne, Rhaelle married a Baratheon, and Aegon V made sure his grandchildren were intermarrying. Jaehaerys wife was probably someone with strong Targ ties. I don't think Targ blood is as common as you think it is, else the author wouldn't put too much importance in that. But that's for other theories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 They seem to have been trying quite hard actually to include all regions. Don't be coy. You know that's not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Whoa!Duskendale was not some grand conspiracy. It was a single rebellious house in the Crownlands.Provocation for the UNEASE with the state of affairs - the reason for the lords recognizing that the peace was fragile. Hence the need to make alliances to preserve it.Whoa, what? You make claims and you don't even try to substantiate them. It's a sign of disrespect for this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 actually it does back up Tywin as they didn't find a bride in Volantis but I know that there were suitable match as Oberyn got Lady Nam, off of a Volantis lady of the best birth. So there were some suitable women available. It backs Doran as much as Tywin or any other claimant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the conquoring bastard25 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Why would you want to preserve the peace if the king is MAD? That doesn't make sense. I'm watching Reign right now, hate how inaccurate it isbut Henri is crazy? its up to his queen and the dauphin to move around the king. Yet when a ruler is mad that's a game changer. Because they are unpredictable and because they can't be trusted the best thing is to remove the king. But because the Targs only rule because of dragons and the dragons are dead there is no reason to stay united. However if the realm must have a Targ ruler they have Robert being raised by Jon another member of the Targ blood through marriage. How is the Northern alliance trying to include everyone? I don't see them trying to marry into Dorne. We can speculate all day about Ned and his marriage to Dayne but we don't know this is true. Nor do we know if that was even on the table so Dorne is out. Nor do we see any marriages being offered to the Iron Born and the north really could use the IB and their ships to counter having to rely on the marriage to Beth Redwyne and the Blackfish. But as they are the natural enemies of most everyone in this alliance, Redwyne, North, Trident. They didn't no to mention that just a few generation passed they were taking advantage of the first Blackfyre rebellion and decided to attack when the realm was weak from the rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Why would you want to preserve the peace if the king is MAD? That doesn't make sense. I'm watching Reign right now, hate how inaccurate it isbut Henri is crazy? its up to his queen and the dauphin to move around the king. Yet when a ruler is mad that's a game changer. Because they are unpredictable and because they can't be trusted the best thing is to remove the king. But because the Targs only rule because of dragons and the dragons are dead there is no reason to stay united. However if the realm must have a Targ ruler they have Robert being raised by Jon another member of the Targ blood through marriage. How is the Northern alliance trying to include everyone? I don't see them trying to marry into Dorne. We can speculate all day about Ned and his marriage to Dayne but we don't know this is true. Nor do we know if that was even on the table so Dorne is out. Nor do we see any marriages being offered to the Iron Born and the north really could use the IB and their ships to counter having to rely on the marriage to Beth Redwyne and the Blackfish. But as they are the natural enemies of most everyone in this alliance, Redwyne, North, Trident. They didn't no to mention that just a few generation passed they were taking advantage of the first Blackfyre rebellion and decided to attack when the realm was weak from the rebellion. I agree and I'd see proposed marriages to Redwyne and possibly Dayne as an attempt to destabilise Martells and Tyrells, not to ally with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Whoa, what? You make claims and you don't even try to substantiate them. It's a sign of disrespect for this thread.What the hell are you talking about? I really have no idea at this point? Are you trying to say I am wrong and Duskendale was part of your grand conspiracy?I have a great deal of respect for exploring this history and why events happened. I disagree fundamentally with some of the posted conclusions that were drawn. You are claiming these marriages were about some sort of war alliance. There is simply NO BASIS for YOUR claim. I am not the one basing everything on claims that are not backed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 I agree and I'd see proposed marriages to Redwyne and possibly Dayne as an attempt to destabilise Martells and Tyrells, not to ally with them.There is absolutely no basis for that.By that logic, when Starks married into the Royce family THAT was about destabilizing Arryns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Why would you want to preserve the peace if the king is MAD? That doesn't make sense. I'm watching Reign right now, hate how inaccurate it isbut Henri is crazy? its up to his queen and the dauphin to move around the king. Yet when a ruler is mad that's a game changer. Because they are unpredictable and because they can't be trusted the best thing is to remove the king. But because the Targs only rule because of dragons and the dragons are dead there is no reason to stay united. However if the realm must have a Targ ruler they have Robert being raised by Jon another member of the Targ blood through marriage. How is the Northern alliance trying to include everyone? I don't see them trying to marry into Dorne. We can speculate all day about Ned and his marriage to Dayne but we don't know this is true. Nor do we know if that was even on the table so Dorne is out. Nor do we see any marriages being offered to the Iron Born and the north really could use the IB and their ships to counter having to rely on the marriage to Beth Redwyne and the Blackfish. But as they are the natural enemies of most everyone in this alliance, Redwyne, North, Trident. They didn't no to mention that just a few generation passed they were taking advantage of the first Blackfyre rebellion and decided to attack when the realm was weak from the rebellion.Getting rid of a mad king IS about preserving peace.Deposing one ruler is not a war. War is a mass slaughter situation, which deposing Aerys would not be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 There is absolutely no basis for that.By that logic, when Starks married into the Royce family THAT was about destabilizing Arryns.Possibly. We don't know what happened that far back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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