The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler (Aemon Having Prophetic Dreams?)

[Fire Eater]

I'm talking about Valyrian sphinxes here

Aemon didn't say which sphinx.

[ArabellaVidal]

Just to muddy the waters a bit, this talk of sphinxes causes me to recall the Persian ones I saw at Persepolis which had the body of a lion, wings of an eagle, and the head of a king. One also can't help but see similarities between Melisandre's fire religion and Zoroastrianism. Lannister lion? Dany's head? Any wings references that might be relevant? Bloodraven's "you will fly" comments to Bran?

I'm sure this is all irrelevant, just late night insomniac thinking out loud...

Have you read Schmendrick's Lightbringer theory? Persian sphinx might be the way to go.

[three-eyed monkey]

I read this thread yesterday, wrote a reply, and then came back and posted in a similar but different thread by mistake.

With regards to the line, "He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer..." I think the dream was to bring dragons back, Egg was the dreamer, and the rest refers to the tragedy at Summerhall.

The line about the sphinx is more curious.

Quote:

"Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes... nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well.” Tyrion, ADwD.

We know since AGoT that avid reader Tyrion likes to read old books about dragons, and it seems at least one such book had a story about dragons riddling with sphinxes. Tyrion dismisses it as nonsense, (no surprise considering his attitude towards the Others), but the Targaryens take it more seriously, Rhaegar being a prime example.

When Maester Aemon, well versed in such matters himself, refers to the sphinx being the riddler, or rather not the riddler as he concludes, it is obviously these old books and stories he’s referring to. Targaryens are well known for prophetic dreams and we know that such dreams are written down, like in the case of Daenys Targaryen’s Signs and Portents. Unfortunately, many of these writings are lost or incomplete, thanks largely to the Doom.

Quote:

“Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend...” Maester Aemon, AFfC.

But somewhere in the remains of the Valyrian literature there’s a story where a sphinx, the guardians of knowledge as symbolised by their place at the doors of buildings like the Citadel, presents a dragon with a riddle. It could be that this is where “the dragon has three heads” comes from, as we don’t know the exact origin of that phrase, though it does sound suspiciously like part of a riddle to me. But regardless of how the riddle may or may not have gone, it seems to have been related to TPtwP and men like Aemon and Rhaegar have spent many an hour pondering it. Maester Aemon’s conclusion seems to be that the sphinx does not speak the riddle but that the sphinx in fact is the riddle. To understand what Aemon means by that we need to trace his train of thought. He’s clearly become convinced that TPtwP is Dany. He explains his reasoning in AFfC:

Quote:

“No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

...

Quote:

“Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen. They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counselled, taught, protected. For all these years I’ve lingered, waiting, watching, and now that the day has dawned I am too old. I am dying, Sam.”

We need to keep the character’s belief in mind when considering what he said, “The sphinx is the riddle.” Keep in mind as well that the prophecies, being from Valyria, were most likely written in Valyrian, otherwise there would not have been a problem in translation, and that the sphinx in question is probably a Valyrian sphinx.

Quote:

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian Sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon’s body and a woman’s face. Tyrion, ADwD.

So if the sphinx is the riddle then it is asking what has the body of a dragon and a human face, (note there is a male version of a sphinx too i.e. the missing king) and the answer is a dragon and its rider. That’s why “the dragons prove it,” in Aemon’s mind at least, because only Dany has dragons to ride. Now, I'm not saying this proves that Dany is TPtwP or anything like that, I'm just saying that Aemon thinks she is. He also seems to be down with the dragon has three heads=three targs theory when he says he' too old to be one of them, but again this is Aemon's belief and may not necessarily be correct either.

[ezra stone]

I'm not sure, but the sphinx could be the one who delivered the prophecy about tPtwP, Jenny's friend, the ghost (supposedly a CotF)

[Russellstiltskin]

I'm not sure, but the sphinx could be the one who delivered the prophecy about tPtwP, Jenny's friend, the ghost (supposedly a CotF)

I don't get it...

[Russellstiltskin]

I read this thread yesterday, wrote a reply, and then came back and posted in a similar but different thread by mistake.

With regards to the line, "He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer..." I think the dream was to bring dragons back, Egg was the dreamer, and the rest refers to the tragedy at Summerhall.

The line about the sphinx is more curious.

Quote:

"Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes... nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well.” Tyrion, ADwD.

We know since AGoT that avid reader Tyrion likes to read old books about dragons, and it seems at least one such book had a story about dragons riddling with sphinxes. Tyrion dismisses it as nonsense, (no surprise considering his attitude towards the Others), but the Targaryens take it more seriously, Rhaegar being a prime example.

When Maester Aemon, well versed in such matters himself, refers to the sphinx being the riddler, or rather not the riddler as he concludes, it is obviously these old books and stories he’s referring to. Targaryens are well known for prophetic dreams and we know that such dreams are written down, like in the case of Daenys Targaryen’s Signs and Portents. Unfortunately, many of these writings are lost or incomplete, thanks largely to the Doom.

Quote:

“Sam, we tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies, of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend...” Maester Aemon, AFfC.

But somewhere in the remains of the Valyrian literature there’s a story where a sphinx, the guardians of knowledge as symbolised by their place at the doors of buildings like the Citadel, presents a dragon with a riddle. It could be that this is where “the dragon has three heads” comes from, as we don’t know the exact origin of that phrase, though it does sound suspiciously like part of a riddle to me. But regardless of how the riddle may or may not have gone, it seems to have been related to TPtwP and men like Aemon and Rhaegar have spent many an hour pondering it. Maester Aemon’s conclusion seems to be that the sphinx does not speak the riddle but that the sphinx in fact is the riddle. To understand what Aemon means by that we need to trace his train of thought. He’s clearly become convinced that TPtwP is Dany. He explains his reasoning in AFfC:

Quote:

“No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

...

Quote:

“Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen. They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counselled, taught, protected. For all these years I’ve lingered, waiting, watching, and now that the day has dawned I am too old. I am dying, Sam.”

We need to keep the character’s belief in mind when considering what he said, “The sphinx is the riddle.” Keep in mind as well that the prophecies, being from Valyria, were most likely written in Valyrian, otherwise there would not have been a problem in translation, and that the sphinx in question is probably a Valyrian sphinx.

Quote:

The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian Sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragon’s body and a woman’s face. Tyrion, ADwD.

So if the sphinx is the riddle then it is asking what has the body of a dragon and a human face, (note there is a male version of a sphinx too i.e. the missing king) and the answer is a dragon and its rider. That’s why “the dragons prove it,” in Aemon’s mind at least, because only Dany has dragons to ride. Now, I'm not saying this proves that Dany is TPtwP or anything like that, I'm just saying that Aemon thinks she is. He also seems to be down with the dragon has three heads=three targs theory when he says he' too old to be one of them, but again this is Aemon's belief and may not necessarily be correct either.

Wow, nice pick-ups there, especially with the riddling sphinx and your explanation. You certainly get the impression when you read the sphinx line from Aemon that there is a mysterious sphinx about to emerge, and I thought it was Alleras until I got to the mentions after him...but the question of Alleras' true identity, which is pretty clear to most, seems like it could be tied in to why she's in Oldtown to begin with, and what her knowledge is and what she's planning to do with it. I've always wondered if, because of the fact that she's Doran's niece and Oberyn's daughter, and she's from Dorne I thought perhaps she was one of the few privy to the knowledge of both Targaryens, and she's at the Citadel to get that rare copy of the ancient dragon book and/or the candle. But I've always wondered about the sphinx quandary, and didn't think we had enough to go on. Nice!