[Book Spoilers] Petyr Baelish - Reyne Theory explored

[OnlyOne]

Hi been reading for a while, never posted before.

This is all circumstantial evidence, but I'm interested to see everyone's views and opinions on this..

So after reading numerous Petyr Baelish theories I have concluded that we all seem to agree on Littlefinger being a major player of the game, he thrives on chaos, is a keen manipulator, one of the most dangerous players, he refers to everyone as pieces and players, he is truly playing a long game and I am theorizing he has a good motive!

What is his true agenda? His true purpose? This is what everyone struggles to agree upon, what does he actually want?

"Everything" He says ... And for once, I believe him!

And here's a theory as to WHY...

Petyr Baelish is a descendant of House Reyne! Yes that's right, the extinct house from Castamere!

Information and evidence on House Baelish and House Reyne is far and few between! With hardly any names and only a small description of both house histories i think there is more than meets the eye here..

Now let me start with how Petyr's described "western traits" which I find help support this theory

- Petyrs eyes are described as Grey/Green.. (Green eyes being a dominant Lannister/ Westerlands traits! Very likely in Reynes/Lannister history merged thus sharing these traits)

- Petyrs name shares the famous Western Tyr .. An interesting spelling and name choice for Petyr! Tyr pops up alot on Lannister and Western Houses family trees..

Now some dates I have found (from the wiki, I'm hoping the AWOIAF will bring some more evidence to back this up) which could support this theory:

- Baelish House discovered 259AC

- Petyr Baelish Born 268AC

- House Reyne died out 260AC +/-

-War of Ninepenny Kings 259AC +/-

Petyr Baelish's father (a hedge knight) became associated with Hoster Tully during War of Ninepenny Kings (resulting in Petyr being fostered there some years later)

-No mention or clues of Petyr's mother or any mention of an individual member of House Reyne!

(There is one Ellyn Tarbeck, who seems to be the only participant from the Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion who has been first named .. On the wiki page she is 'presumed dead'.

A descendant of Tarbeck could fit this theory also but I would think the Reynes of Castermere song being such an infamous and cruel reminder of the fate of House Reyne would inspire Petyrs revenge and ambition! And his ultimate goal to restore his rightful family name by bringing down the Lannister's/Starks/Tullys (every noble house who has spurned Petyr, him or his descendants) I feel his true aim is to re-store the Reynes to their former glory and then some by eventually seating himself (or future heir) on the throne!

Now for assumptions: Some explanations could be

1) Petyrs father (a hedge knight) met a female Reyne descendant after the War of Ninepenny Kings in 259 before the rebellion and downfall of House Reyne ..

2) it is not to foolish to assume at least one member of House Reyne was not home at the time Tywin's men came a'knocking ..and made up a braavosi father story as a cover story. Purchasing a small insignificant plot of land called the fingers, away from the west.

Petyr would have been born 8 years after the destruction of House Reyne.. So he's motivation would stream from his parents teaching him and about their former wealth and glory and resentment towards the Lannister. But this could explain his why he feels worthy of such a highborn women like Catelyn Tully.

I can't find any dates or evidence concluding what year Petyr was fostered by Hoster Tully, but it is surely odd, is it not, for Hoster to foster such an insigificant and minor house (I know the reasons: Hoster and Petyrs father became friends during war of the ninepenny kings) but is there more to this? Is that a legitimate reason to have the heir to your recently formed minor-House fostered at such a prestige castle such as Riverrun.

Here are some quotes which could support this theory:

- Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game. [22] Littlefinger to Sansa

- You could turn King's Landing upside down and not find a single man with a mockingbird sewn over his heart but that does not mean I am friendless. [6] Littlefinger

- "Littlefinger... the gods only know what game Littlefinger is playing. [25] Varys when reporting the various machinations at court to Illyrio Mopatis

- "Only a cat of a different coat, that's all the truth I know" Reynes of Castamere song .. (Petyr has an obsession with Cat)

As you can see, its all very crackpot and circumstantial but i just cant help but ponder Petyrs true intentions and motivation. I realise his rags to riches-worked his way into power- in love and spurned by cat/brandon- backstory is all very nice and gives him enough reason to do what he does and would GRRM really keep putting these schemes within a scheme inceptions ontop of everything else with supposedly only 2 books left to go but im looking forward to hearing some feedback and seeing what you all think about this :)

He's clearly someone. I agree on the fostering. And yes, I've said he's playing a long game. So, why not?

[little grin]

No i dont agree with this i think littlefinger is just very ambitious and really enjoys playing the game

[little grin]

No i dont agree with this i think littlefinger is just very ambitious and really enjoys playing the game

[Lord Ledford]

I like this theory. He may be a Tarbeck suvivor if not Reyne. I wondered why he never improved his lands or castle when he has loads of cash. His obsession with power and social climbing is justified if he is a Reyne or a Tarbeck

[The Mountain That Posts]

Has anyone ever compiled a list of every lie and action LF has done and analyzed exactly WHO has been hurt by each?

It does seem from this thread overly anti-Lannister, but it could jsut be a coincidence, since he also did a lot of things which HELPED the Lannister cause - getting the Tyrells on Joffrey's side, for instance. Not letting Sansa escape with the Tyrells by instead telling Tywin about their plans, another.

Also, everyone should keep in mind the usually forgotten theory about Ser Mandon Moore. (The theory suggests it was him being the one to leave Lysa's message box in Winterfell, and LF being the one behind Mandon's order to kill Tyrion due to Tyrion blatantly being on LF's trail in book 2. And considering both LF and Mandon came from Jon Arryn, it'd make sense that they had history together)

[Syri0_F0rel]

Has anyone ever compiled a list of every lie and action LF has done and analyzed exactly WHO has been hurt by each?

It does seem from this thread overly anti-Lannister, but it could jsut be a coincidence, since he also did a lot of things which HELPED the Lannister cause - getting the Tyrells on Joffrey's side, for instance. Not letting Sansa escape with the Tyrells by instead telling Tywin about their plans, another.

Also, everyone should keep in mind the usually forgotten theory about Ser Mandon Moore. (The theory suggests it was him being the one to leave Lysa's message box in Winterfell, and LF being the one behind Mandon's order to kill Tyrion due to Tyrion blatantly being on LF's trail in book 2. And considering both LF and Mandon came from Jon Arryn, it'd make sense that they had history together)

I want Petyr Reyne to be a true theory. It would be so much fun. As the Mountain That Posts says though, the Lannisters could have fallen in the Blackwater but Petyr played a key role in securing the alliance that saved them.

Though I could argue against myself saying that Stannis would have enacted his justice against Petyr's treason to King's Landing and he'd be worse off. Maybe it has to be him, and not Stannis, to defeat the Lannisters in battle.

[The Mountain That Posts]

The thing is, if it's revealed that both Varys AND Littlefinger are secret people - I feel like it'd be a copout.

I think if it's just Varys who's a secret person(being it Targ or whatever) then that's fine. If they BOTH turn out to be secret characters? Eh...

I honestly prefer the idea of some jump-start coming from basically nothing, deciding he gets his biggest thrills out of causing chaos. So while the OP's theory does fit in with what we've been given, i'd rather it not be true and that LF is just a "some men want to watch the world burn" type.

Eh, I don't know. What do other people think? Why/how does Petyr Reyne improve the story in your opinions?

Also, i'd get securing the Lannister alliance if LF also didn't want Stannis to get the glory or potentially execute LF, but why would LF then(from Dontos obviously) spoil Sansa's marriage arrangements to the Tyrells? I mean, if LF was working a Joffrey murder scheme with the Tyrells, surely he could've had access to her whether it be in Highgarden OR King's Landing?

Not trying to argue, I just genuinely don't see what the benefit of LF spoiling Sansa's Tyrell match and making Tyrion marry him would do. Unless of course Littlefinger knew he'd be taking Sansa at Joff's wedding, so with an absentee wife, Tyrion would get the blame - which makes sense on LF's part since I already established that it was LF who had connections with Mandon Moore. I don't know, somebody sell me on the Reyne theory!

[Lady Woodland]

Great OP & to Skoboe sorry I missed that read.

The theory that LF is from House Tarbeck or Reyne makes sense to me, fills in a lot of gaps in his arc. I believe he was brought up in the Tully Household with full knowledge of his history, and was treated as little more than a pet or toy between Lysa & Cat, when he fell for Cat & was denied Catelyn her hand in marriage due to his lowborn status it ignited a fire that has lead him down a complicated path of retribution. It would make sense not to alienate the Lannisters because up until Tywin's death they were still very powerful & he needs to make himself look like an ally while plotting behind their back.

I'm totally on board with this theory, shame it got moved but glad to have found it here, I always suspected there was something more to Petyr that just a psychopath, this makes a lot of sense.

If his love for Catelyn was true it will be interesting if her daughter will be his eventual Achilles Heel.

[Syri0_F0rel]

If this wild theory is real, the conversation between Jamie Lannister and Hoster Blackwood provides foreshadowing. Petyr is an avenging son.

A Dance with Dragons Chapter 48 - Jamie I

“The Old King’s Peace lasted half a century. But then some fresh quarrel broke out, and the old wounds opened and began to bleed again. That’s how it always happens, my father says. So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it.”

“There could be.”

“How, my lord? The old wounds never heal, my father says.”

“My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don’t claim vengeance.”

“Their sons do,” said Hoster, apologetically.

“Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone.” For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar’s children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks.

[TheeeHippie]

Something interesting regarding this did pop up on the Show.

In Season 5 Episode 6, Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken. There is a conversation with Cersei and Petyr, where he assures her that "I will not rest untill the Lion flies over Winterfell" but who says, what coat this Lion will have.
I am a tad skeptic about it, since the show is deviating quite a bit from the books in these arc's, but it does seem to support this theory quite heavily.

[TheRoseWithThorns]

I could honestly see this being a thing, the evidence you put out is very supportive of your claim. Hell, WHY NOT?! It would really make sense, if this theory is true, as to why he wants to bring so much chaos between the Lannisters, Starks, and Tyrells (whom he is allied with). Also, if you notice in the show, he always mentions that he "came from nowhere", Sansa even stating that he was "a boy of eight, carrying everything he owned in a little sack". This could prove that he is trying to downplay his heritage, making himself seem like just a member of a poor and lowly house! :dunno: :cool4:

[sweetsunray]

Despite the thorough time invested in the OP, I would hate it if Petyr Baelish was anyone but Petyr Baelish. If he were to be tested on Hare's psychopathy scale, I think he's one of the purest psychopaths written in the books - 40/40. Remember Heath Ledger as the Joker - he always tells some story to someone how he ends up being who he is, and about his smile. And every time his story is different than before. That's because he knows people can't fathom he is who he is just because - normal, empathic people require or invent a motivation for someone to turn as ruthless, because they can't imagine someone ever being so ruthless for no reason at all. But that's exactly how psychopaths tick - there is no reason really. So, for GRRM to write one of the most pure psychopath in his books and then give him some ancestral revenge reason would be the worst writing ever imo.

Sure, Petyr is vengeful, but in the callous psychopathic way - oh, you banged me against the wall and held my throat... guess you're going to lose your head Ned. Oh Cat you rejected my familiarity, you're gonna be so much in trouble. Sansa you refuse to meet my Dontos and plan you're on escape - I'll fuck you over with a marriage to Tyrion. His vengefulness is over the top, and over slights. You can't go more psychopath than that.

As for the mockingbird: it mimics songs... Psychopaths are empty human beings all in all, with little to no emotion at all, and they hide their true callousness and cold emptiness with masks. They're experts on masking who they are, and they do it by mirroring, true chameleons. Often the sole time you can catch them without a mask is if there's a picture taken (like a selfie) with nobody else nearby to mirror.

So, no matter how cool it would be for normal, empathic people for Petyr Baelish to have some backstory to "understand" why he's playing the games he plays, it would imo take away all of his characerization and less of a psychopath.