[Book Spoilers] Petyr Baelish - Reyne Theory explored

[Bluemangosteen]

They do that. I don't know why. Too bad... great discussion in General.

heh. We must be on to something . . .

[Skoboe]

Moving it to the TV forum is a mistake, surely?

[edd tollett:(]

He was a former squire of Rhaegars - later knighted.

Thank you

[edd tollett:(]

Yet it was Lady Ellyn who vowed to kill all the Lannisters if they harmed her husband. She was presumed killed at Tarbeck Hall.

And we do have the unresolved pregnant woman emerging from a black pool, praying for a son to avenge her.

[BarristonTheBAMF]

Love this theory. I'm sold. Explains so much of Littlefingers drive for climbing the social ladder and revenge

And we do have the unresolved pregnant woman emerging from a black pool, praying for a son to avenge her.

Don't think this has anything to do with this tho. If I'm correct in my assumptions, all those visions Bran had were from the Winterfell heart tree, dunno how a Reyne or Tarbeck would be there..

[HexMachina]

Not according to reports that just came out of ConCarolinas. Ellyn was born a Reyne, married a Lannister, and then married a Tarbeck.

Ellyn is too old to be Littlefinger's mother. She was in the same generation as Tytos. It would be one of her daughters, a girl named Alayne.

We know the name of her daughters, they were

Rohanne and Sarelle (or something along those lines)

[Bringer of Rain]

I think it would be cool. A large aspect of Tywin's fame or infamy isn't true to the extent that everyone believes it to be.

[HexMachina]

I think it would be cool. A large aspect of Tywin's fame or infamy isn't true to the extent that everyone believes it to be.

Have you seen the Westerlands history reading? If anything I think his infamy is understated

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ellyn Reyne/Lannister/Tarbeck was still betrothed to Tybalt Lannister in 232AC, she got married to Tion Lannister in 235AC, and died in 260/261AC because she was hugn from the highest window of Tarbeck Hall. Her children were named Tion, Sarelle and Rohanne (after the son, the niece and the wife Gerold Lannister, Ellyn's former father in law, had lost).

Ellyn Reyne was a young girl in 232AC. In 268AC, she would have been a woman in het 40ties or 50ties, had she lived. Unfortunately, by this time, she was several years dead.

Her daughters were born after 237AC, since Ellyn's first husband, Tion Lannister, died in 236AC, and Ellyn had told everyone she was pregnant with Tion's child, which they all believed until her stomach stayed flat. Gerold, Tion's father, did not like Ellyn's influence (Ellyn had tried to seduce Tytos, who at that time had been married for about a year to Jeyne Marbrant, but Tytos hadn't been able to perform, and eventually confessed to his wife, who told Gerold everything), and married her off to the old Lord Tarbeck.

Ellyn's three known children (Rohanne, Sarelle and Tion), were born between 237AC and 242AC (with Tion having been born in 242AC, the same year as Tywin). Rohanne and Sarelle would thus be rather old by the time of Petyr's birth.

Rohanne, by the time Tywin came to destroy Tarbeck Hall, had a 3 year old son, who either died (killed by Ser Amory) or was fled across the Narrow Sea. In any case, this child would be too old to be Petyr (in case conversation turns that way).

On Sarelle, further nothing is known, but she would have been about 30 years old at Petyr's birth, a bit too old, IMO, for a first marriage.

[Ice_and_Fire]

Love this theory! Would be a very cool back story to him. I think there must be more to him and this could explain it.

[Daniel Snow]

think about littlefingers sigil the mockingbird. a mockingbird mimics others.

the sigil of house reyne is simply a copy of the lannisters and were reffered to as cats. aka mimicking a lion. house reyne tried to vecome the new powerhiuse in westerlands exploiting tytos lannisters weakness just as peter exploits cersie.

petyrs sigil the mockingbird is another take of the reynes copying of the lannister sigil.

he changed his crest for a reason and littlefinger likes to play games and take risks. isnt he just the type that would get a kick out of putting his true identity right under their noses without realising

[Skoboe]

think about littlefingers sigil the mockingbird. a mockingbird mimics others.

the sigil of house reyne is simply a copy of the lannisters and were reffered to as cats. aka mimicking a lion. house reyne tried to vecome the new powerhiuse in westerlands exploiting tytos lannisters weakness just as peter exploits cersie.

petyrs sigil the mockingbird is another take of the reynes copying of the lannister sigil.

he changed his crest for a reason and littlefinger likes to play games and take risks. isnt he just the type that would get a kick out of putting his true identity right under their noses without realising

Yep - and also the Titan. What does the Titan represent? It represents a people that fled persecution, a people that built themselves up - in secret - to become one of the most powerful cities in the world...a city that Kings come to beg from.

[Skoboe]

Love this theory! Would be a very cool back story to him. I think there must be more to him and this could explain it.

I think it's more than just a back story.

There are two main plots happening when you break it down...there is the political one and the prophetic one.

For the politics; LF has the Vale Lords under his thumb, he has the Tyrells as well. And with Sansa there for him to reveal he will have the favour of the North. It's not the lands he wants (think about how unexcited he was with Harrenhal), but the armies.

He also owns several key people within KL; And in the process, he moved his own men into place. The Keepers of the Keys were his, all four. The King's Counter and the King of Scales were men he named. The officers in charge of all three mints. Harbormasters, tax farmers, custom sergeants, wool factors, toll collectors, pursers, wine factors; nine of every ten belonged to Littlefinger. They were men of middling birth, by and large, merchant's sons, lesser lordlings, sometimes even foreigners, but judging from the results, far more able than their highborn predecessors.

So with Stannis looking to invade from the North, and Dany from the East, there will be LF with half the fighting men of the Kingdom and the surety that their transition to KL will be smooth and relatively debt free (read the posts on his skimming) to whichever conqueror can help him utterly destroy the Lannisters and give him back Castamere.

For the prophetic side of it - that's for other threads :)

[Daniel Snow]

Yep - and also the Titan. What does the Titan represent? It represents a people that fled persecution, a people that built themselves up - in secret - to become one of the most powerful cities in the world...a city that Kings come to beg from.

oh very VERY nice...

I had been wondering where he might have based the titan from and that fits just perfectly.

braavo... s...

[High without honor]

That would be interesting, LF would have claim to the Riverlands, the North, Casterly Rock and the Vale.

Maybe that is why he was asking Cercei for the tapestries?

[Lord Thornhart]

Great theory!

Another reason that Petyr might be a Reyne is because he resembles a human too closely to be from Essos. His motives are also pretty human-like.

Also, I think how he lost to Brandon and how he defeated Eddard both seem to parallel the lion's smart and wolf's strength themes.

[Mistress of Lemon Cakes]

I like this theory. A lot.

I think you're definitely on to something, OP. And it just made Littlefinger 10 times more interesting than he already was. The fact that his end game seems so elusive (or without motive) always bugged me. This theory sums it up brilliantly.

[Sandy Clegg]

That would be interesting, LF would have claim to the Riverlands, the North, Casterly Rock and the Vale.

Maybe that is why he was asking Cercei for the tapestries?

How would he have a claim to Casterly Rock? A lot of other Lannisters would need to die first. I suppose that might happen though, with the body count of this series :)

[Morrigen]

OP, nice theory. I like it.

Your theory made me think of Littlefinger in a different light, and made me start to think about other possibilities relating to his origin. I have been wondering specifically on the etymology of his surname, Baelish. I wonder where GRRM got the inspiration for the name? I could not find anything Celtic or Norse that seemed to shed light on the meaning. In fact, the only thing remotely close was "Baalath", which is an Old Hebrew word for a town, loosely translated as "a rejoicing; our proud lord".

This city, Baalath, is also believed by some to be the physical city of Baalbek, located in Babylon, and is also thought to be the location of the tower of Babel. This results in some interesting parallels to the Reynes as well, as it was believed to be hubris that caused the fall of the Tower of Babel. In addition, if Baalath can be translated as "our proud lord", it seems a possible nod to the first line of The Rains of Castamere--"Who I am I, the proud lord said?"

On an interesting side note, the Tower of Babel was supposedly constructed with the aid of the Titans of ancient Greek/Babylonian mythology. Perhaps the origin of House Baelish in Braavos is alluded to here as well?

In the end, perhaps it is only fitting that Lord Baelish has been granted the Lordship of Harrenhal, which always reminded me of the Tower of Babel, and its resulting destruction by the Targaryens. Perhaps I am off the mark with the parallels, but still I wonder.......

Going back to your OP: I totally think this has merit, and really gives a purpose to a man who previously seems to have no purpose other than pure Chaos. I am now hoping that he indeed does find a way to bring about the utter ruin of the Lannisters. Vengeance is a dish best served cold.

[Sandy Clegg]

That would be interesting, LF would have claim to the Riverlands, the North, Casterly Rock and the Vale.

Maybe that is why he was asking Cercei for the tapestries?

Just chasing the rabbit all the way down the rabbit hole, to see where it will lead here ...

If LF is from the Reyne line, who were all drowned when Tywin had the river diverted to flood their halls, then he may he seeking a fitting revenge for this, some kind of death by water/flooding. Maybe on a larger scale?

What if the tapestries are maps, but from before the Steptones were created by the COTF's water magic, when the Arm of Dorne was still intact? Some nice proof for LF that this kind of power once existed. Imagine how Petyr would like to get his hands on that kind of water magic and use it against the Lannister strongholds?

Very tinfoil I know, and how would he even get access to such magic? But if we know anything about LF, it's that he knows how to steadily acquire power ... and the COTF have re-entered the game :)