The Unsullied in Westeros

[Kuma]

I'll take that bet. 8,000 corpses, man those would be some happy crows! Pikes vs. Spears.... Let me put this in perspective, a pike is 3 to 7.5 metres (10 to 25 feet) long. A spear is typically 2-2.75m (7–9 ft.) for infantry. Anyone see a problem here? It's like Victarion vs. Euron's masts.... (bad joke)

Basically in visual.

Pike Spear

_________________ ________

I don't think any more illustration is needed for Unsullied vs a Westerosi Pike force.

Too bad that unsullied are armed with SHORT spears, thats even shorter than those you mentioned

[Collis]

Too bad that unsullied are armed with SHORT spears

We should give them pikes to compensate

[The_Crannogman]

I just don't see them doing well against the combined cavalry, spears, archers and heavy infantry of a Westerosi army. Raining arrows on them whilst combined with a strong infantry charge, followed by a flanking movement of Westerosi knights.

It's harsh to put them in this scenario as any foot infantry on its own would get decimated in this scenario.

In a situation against a Westerosi army when they have support things become interesting, if they were to come up against the pikemen, who seem to have some experience at fighting, then they would most likely lose due to their inferior length of weapon.

However if they come up against mounted knights they may do better than some people think. Often against Westerosi forces the Knights cause the opponents to flee, we know the Unsullied wouldn't do this and this may cause the knights to get bogged down, allowing the unsullied to get at them or other heavily armoured troops.

I think against the bulk or a Westerosi army though the Unsullied would have decent success as the people they would becoming up against would have poorer weapons and would be ill disciplined and so may crumble under the unsullied sustained attack.

So the main thing is the type of troop they come up against as well as them having decent support so they can't be out maneuvered (Obviously the ground would have to be taken into consideration but I am assuming it is just a typical place where a relatively large scale force could fight)

What I am most interested in is can the unsullied adapt, if they can and they change their armour to more heavy armour and possibly having a secondary weapon type which they could use then they would be a very effective fighting force, if not then I would have to agree with other people and say they are an out-dated fighting force compared to Westerosi forces.

[Collis]

It's harsh to put them in this scenario as any foot infantry on its own would get decimated in this scenario.

In a situation against a Westerosi army when they have support things become interesting, if they were to come up against the pikemen, who seem to have some experience at fighting, then they would most likely lose due to their inferior length of weapon.

However if they come up against mounted knights they may do better than some people think. Often against Westerosi forces the Knights cause the opponents to flee, we know the Unsullied wouldn't do this and this may cause the knights to get bogged down, allowing the unsullied to get at them or other heavily armoured troops.

I think against the bulk or a Westerosi army though the Unsullied would have decent success as the people they would becoming up against would have poorer weapons and would be ill disciplined and so may crumble under the unsullied sustained attack.

So the main thing is the type of troop they come up against as well as them having decent support so they can't be out maneuvered (Obviously the ground would have to be taken into consideration but I am assuming it is just a typical place where a relatively large scale force could fight)

What I am most interested in is can the unsullied adapt, if they can and they change their armour to more heavy armour and possibly having a secondary weapon type which they could use then they would be a very effective fighting force, if not then I would have to agree with other people and say they are an out-dated fighting force compared to Westerosi forces.

Can they adapt? In that case can the Westerosi adapt? Perhaps After the Unsulllied adapt the Westerosi will adapt and then the Unsullied will adapt, and then the Westerosi will adapt!!! Not to be rude, but you get the point. Using the equipment that we have knowledge of them possessing it's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

Regarding them fleeing, if they have horrible ineffective weapons against knights or heavy infantry, it really doesn't matter if they stand their ground. They are still dead men. Even in a straight fight disregarding support, heavy infantry would make mincemeat out of them, regardless if they stand their ground.

Odd question? How do Unsullied get knights to be bogged down? Do they carry buckets of water and drench the field before the fight? Perhaps their Myrish Swamps will bog down the knights? I don't follow the logic.

Extremely Important Point that Diminishes the Importance of the Unsullied. All Westeros fighting forces are renewable. Unsullied will never be able to recover from losses. In a game of attrition as an invasion/occupation would likely be their effect would be negligible save for initial seizures. Ultimately inconsequential.

[khalhotpie]

Tryion and barristans chapters in twow and adwd seem to hint they fight in a difficult to picture fashion using pikes, spears , short sword, shieilds and javelins ! makes them swiss pikeman, roman legionary and greek hoplite all in one somehow

Armour wise all we hear is quilted uniforms so if they are the tv show and some 300 like images on the wiki = dead

if they are the much more well padded version the wiki also shows they are in with a chance

also itl depend if they can fight in other formations than the phalanx like square or be taught how (given the adverage medieval reenactment crew can learn to do it in a few fucking hours id expect uber diciplinened unsullied to adapt) ud expect comming from a world of dothraki and mounted sellswords they will know more than one formation.

and of course their back up...unsullied alone like any infantry alone in this period are dead men.

maybe they look like this comming ashore :) but updated a little

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mxt1ym1ZwU8

:)

[TheOldWolf]

I think that if they can get some Armor and Cavalry in Westeros, then have them trained by Barristan and the storm crows that would be very effective. It would be like a Westerosi force but more discipline and they fight to the last man

[The_Crannogman]

Can they adapt? In that case can the Westerosi adapt? Perhaps After the Unsulllied adapt the Westerosi will adapt and then the Unsullied will adapt, and then the Westerosi will adapt!!! Not to be rude, but you get the point. Using the equipment that we have knowledge of them possessing it's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

Regarding them fleeing, if they have horrible ineffective weapons against knights or heavy infantry, it really doesn't matter if they stand their ground. They are still dead men. Even in a straight fight disregarding support, heavy infantry would make mincemeat out of them, regardless if they stand their ground.

Odd question? How do Unsullied get knights to be bogged down? Do they carry buckets of water and drench the field before the fight? Perhaps their Myrish Swamps will bog down the knights? I don't follow the logic.

Extremely Important Point that Diminishes the Importance of the Unsullied. All Westeros fighting forces are renewable. Unsullied will never be able to recover from losses. In a game of attrition as an invasion/occupation would likely be their effect would be negligible save for initial seizures. Ultimately inconsequential.

The knights get bogged down as after their initial charge they are again faced with a wall of spears, at this point they have two choices, the first one is to run away to regroup for another charge. If they do this they will expose themselves to the Unsullied who, with their spears, should be able to cause serious damage to a retreating mounted unit. The second option is they keep fighting their way through the Unsullied, however as they are a well organised and tightly packed fighting force the unsullied will be able to thrust their spears at the knights whilst the knights can't out maneuver that well in the tightly packed group.

Whilst I don't think their weapons are the best for facing heavily mounted units I do think that the spears and tactics they posses could still work against Westerosi knights, so long as they face them head on and don't get flanked.

I take your point about the ability to adapt, my thinking with that was that the unsullied train everyday though and think of nothing else but fighting so I was thinking out of any force they would have one of the higher chances of learning how to fight with a new weapon, such as a longer spear or pike.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Hence the range being put (3 to 7.5 metres (10 to 25 feet) and 2-2.75m (7–9 ft.)). You said a spear force. I was using the premise you presented. Technically those with sythes, those wouldn't be pikemen, then would they?

Nope. They'd be billmen. Not that there are many of them. Almost all Westerosi soldiers are highly-trained professionals with first-class equipment.

The knights get bogged down as after their initial charge they are again faced with a wall of spears, at this point they have two choices, the first one is to run away to regroup for another charge. If they do this they will expose themselves to the Unsullied who, with their spears, should be able to cause serious damage to a retreating mounted unit. The second option is they keep fighting their way through the Unsullied, however as they are a well organised and tightly packed fighting force the unsullied will be able to thrust their spears at the knights whilst the knights can't out maneuver that well in the tightly packed group.

Whilst I don't think their weapons are the best for facing heavily mounted units I do think that the spears and tactics they posses could still work against Westerosi knights, so long as they face them head on and don't get flanked.

I take your point about the ability to adapt, my thinking with that was that the unsullied train everyday though and think of nothing else but fighting so I was thinking out of any force they would have one of the higher chances of learning how to fight with a new weapon, such as a longer spear or pike.

No cavalry ever charges directly into disciplined infantry unit. They'll hit targets of opportunity instead.

And no, Unsullied running after a retreating group of cavalry wouldn't happen either.

[Donnelly]

Don't they exclusively use the phalanx?

It worked for the Greeks because Greece was full of narrow mountain passes where they could form a choke point.

The Romans tried to use the phalanx in Italy, in open battle, and got their asses kicked, so the Romans being the practical sort; ditching things when they ceased to be useful or function, ditched the phalanx and used far more versatile formations.

The phalanx is useless against the diversified tactics utilized by the Westerosi armies, especially in open battle.

It's slow, has an obvious weak point; the back, and is inflexible, a levy of Westerosi men-at-arms with knights would defeat them.

Unless they have plot armor, of course.

^This

They could be very effective as part of a mixed army, but without support from cavalry or advantageous terrain they would easily be outflanked

[greywind93]

We should give them pikes to compensate

that would get them killed quicker if they don't get better armour

[Lonin]

The "unsullied" are trained to fight with 3 spears of varying length, shortsword, and shield. They can wear armor, if supplied by "owner". I always pictured the "unsullied" as swiss pikeman. I am not sure why people thing they will be easily defeated in Westeros. They are infantry - they need additional forces(calvery, archers etc) to become an army.

In text we have two experienced Westeros warriors (Selmy and Jorah) who seem to think they are more than adequate infantry. No one in books seems to think they will be easily beaten by Westeros infantry.

[Collis]

The "unsullied" are trained to fight with 3 spears of varying length, shortsword, and shield. They can wear armor, if supplied by "owner". I always pictured the "unsullied" as swiss pikeman. I am not sure why people thing they will be easily defeated in Westeros. They are infantry - they need additional forces(calvery, archers etc) to become an army.

In text we have two experienced Westeros warriors (Selmy and Jorah) who seem to think they are more than adequate infantry. No one in books seems to think they will be easily beaten by Westeros infantry.

No one in the books really thinks they will even get to Westeros... Apart from Selmy and Jorah. As a mixed force...maybe. And you are right, they need mixed forces. Simply put, if Dany doesn't get support, it will be a very short invasion; which is becoming a very real threat if fAegon drains Targ manpower before she gets there. Maybe the Reach will change sides...again.

[Fire Eater]

I think people are too heavily associating the Unsullied with the ancient Greeks while failing to note the clear parallel to Swiss pikemen. Swiss pikemen units consisted of 100 men each like the Unsullied century. The Swiss pikemen, like the Unsullied, were also highly valued for their discipline, and effective against armored cavalry. The Battle of Qohor does bear some resemblance to the the Battle of St. Jakob an der Birs: a small force of a few thousand infantry facing 20,000 cavalry that repeatedly charged into them until only a few hundred infantry were left.

The Unsullied will easily outperform the traditional peasant infantry, and the strength of armored charges is psychological, breaking the enemy before he breaks you; the Unsullied will not break with their lifetime of discipline. They can likely withstand traditional armored charges. Besides, I think few competent commanders would try a frontal assault on them. The Unsullied would likely also have cavalry on the vanguards and archers to complement them.

Too bad that unsullied are armed with SHORT spears, thats even shorter than those you mentioned

They have three spears. So short spear is likely only one of them, and they also could have a thorwing spear, or pilum like the Romans, as well as the longspear which could resemble the pike, with a likely counterweight on the end to keep it steady.

Nope. They'd be billmen. Not that there are many of them. Almost all Westerosi soldiers are highly-trained professionals with first-class equipment.

Except for the peasant infantry, for the most part, who make up most of a medieval army. A number of them are poorly equipped.

i second you on the outdated part . In most (but not all) of essos seem to me a thousand years behind westeros it has a lot of aspects of antiquity whereas westeros has aspects of medieval europe (stating the obvious )

I think that is inaccurate as Westeros has always been conquered from the east, but never successfully the other way around. Innovation nearly always came from the east. Essos is more advanced politically with more diverse forms of government besides monarchy, and economically, with manufacturing hubs in Braavos, Myr and Qohor and bankers throughout the Free Cities.

[Collis]

They can likely withstand traditional armored charges. Besides, I think few competent commanders would try a frontal assault on them. The Unsullied would likely also have cavalry on the vanguards and archers to complement them.

They would likely? It seems we may be hypothesizing for their commanders. It likely would be (insert extenuating circumstance here).

They have three spears. So short spear is likely only one of them, and they also could have a thorwing spear, or pilum like the Romans, as well as the longspear which could resemble the pike, with a likely counterweight on the end to keep it steady.

Once again, likely? Nothing against you, but it seems you are projecting a lot of what you imagine them like and simply, we don't have that much information. They may have three spears, but we don't know the exact dimensions either. They can be anything from 7-9.5 feet long, throwing or held. We have no idea. If it is indeed longer, that is classified as a pike, entirely different word.

I think that is inaccurate as Westeros has always been conquered from the east, but never successfully the other way around. Innovation nearly always came from the east. Essos is more advanced politically with more diverse forms of government besides monarchy, and economically, with manufacturing hubs in Braavos, Myr and Qohor and bankers throughout the Free Cities.

Regarding the conquests, all have been due to technological innovation. In this case, that doesn't exist. First Men=Force issue over the CotF. Andals=Iron>Bronze (similar things happened IRL). Targaryens= Dragons, medieval WMDs. In this example of the Unsullied, they do not have that advantage (and we are not counting Dragons in this example simply for analysis purposes).

Anyone bringing them needs to bring Westerosi support, otherwise they are simply outclassed.

[Fire Eater]

They would likely? It seems we may be hypothesizing for their commanders. It likely would be (insert extenuating circumstance here).

No competent commander would try that, especially someone like Connington or experienced commanders in the GC. If Jaime's infantry could withstand an armored charge from Robb, then the Unsullied could most likely withstand an armored charge.

Once again, likely? Nothing against you, but it seems you are projecting a lot of what you imagine them like and simply, we don't have that much information. They may have three spears, but we don't know the exact dimensions either. They can be anything from 7-9.5 feet long, throwing or held. We have no idea. If it is indeed longer, that is classified as a pike, entirely different word.

The Greeks also carried a short throwing spear, and the Romans threw barbed javelins that would attach themselves to shields, and weigh them down with the enemy infantry abandoning their shields as a result.. Alexander the Great's army had sarissas, which were long pikes.

Regarding the conquests, all have been due to technological innovation. In this case, that doesn't exist. First Men=Force issue over the CotF. Andals=Iron>Bronze (similar things happened IRL). Targaryens= Dragons, medieval WMDs. In this example of the Unsullied, they do not have that advantage (and we are not counting Dragons in this example simply for analysis purposes).

Anyone bringing them needs to bring Westerosi support, otherwise they are simply outclassed.

The First Men had bronze weapons, shields and had domesticated horses compared to the obsidian weapons of the CotF. All the technological innovations were in Essos for the most part. The Unsullied do have the advantage as they are trained since childhood to fight, and even in Westeros their reputation is known. Unsullied do have an advantage against all the other infantry in Westeros, and they are more than capable against armored cavalry.

No single force alone is enough in a regular army. No one has all infantry, or all archers.

[Creticus]

Don't they exclusively use the phalanx?

It worked for the Greeks because Greece was full of narrow mountain passes where they could form a choke point.

The Romans tried to use the phalanx in Italy, in open battle, and got their asses kicked, so the Romans being the practical sort; ditching things when they ceased to be useful or function, ditched the phalanx and used far more versatile formations.

The phalanx is useless against the diversified tactics utilized by the Westerosi armies, especially in open battle.

It's slow, has an obvious weak point; the back, and is inflexible, a levy of Westerosi men-at-arms with knights would defeat them.

Unless they have plot armor, of course.

We have historical records of the Romans fighting the Diadochi. Most times, the phalangites outperformed their Roman counterparts. In fact, there are even stories of Roman centuries hurling their standards into the phalanx to encourage their men, to no avail because the legionaries could not break past the sarissas.

The Diadochi didn't fall to Rome because the phalanx was obsolete - the Diadochi fell because none of them bothered to maintain the kind of combined arms force that served both Philip and his son.

Regardless, this is moot because the Unsullied are not phalangites.

[Lonin]

Extremely Important Point that Diminishes the Importance of the Unsullied. All Westeros fighting forces are renewable. Unsullied will never be able to recover from losses. In a game of attrition as an invasion/occupation would likely be their effect would be negligible save for initial seizures. Ultimately inconsequential.

Not exactly true. Dany purchased 8500 fully trained unsullied plus 5000 who have not completed training, some very young. So in fact Dany does have replacements.

[Ser Stefan]

Kind of off topic but do you think they can stand against fAegon's war elephants if they had to??

[The_Leech_Lord]

Not exactly true. Dany purchased 8500 fully trained unsullied plus 5000 who have not completed training, some very young. So in fact Dany does have replacements.

I'm sure it wasnt 5000. Can you quote? I remember 600. I may be wrong, but i dont think so

[Lonin]

I'm sure it wasnt 5000. Can you quote? I remember 600. I may be wrong, but i dont think so

You might be sure, but you are wrong. I have quote.. do you?

"eight thousand and six hundred in the spiked bronze caps of fully trained Unsullied, and five thousand odd behind them, bareheaded , yet armed with spears and shortswords. The ones farthest to the back were only boys, she saw, but they stood as straight and still as all the rest."

Martin, George R.R. (2011-03-22). A Game of Thrones 4-Book Bundle: A Song of Ice and Fire Series: A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, and A Feast for Crows (Song of Ice & Fire) (Kindle Locations 35928-35929). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.