Dany and Colonialism

[Greymoon]

I've seen 3rd world immigrants go from not speaking English to being doctors/engineers/programmers in a very short amount of time. It's better to have advantages, sure, but the existing system, while far from perfect, allows for very rapid upward mobility. Colonialism isn't determining people's futures.

...Why did these people immigrate? did you ask them? and why on earth, did they need to learn English? did you ask that?

[The Dragon King]

They immigrated to build a better life, which they could do here as opposed to their home country. They learned English to communicate with people in the US.

[Greymoon]

They immigrated to build a better life, which they could do here as opposed to their home country. They learned English to communicate with people in the US.

...and why couldn't they do it in their home country? Do you not find it strange that people must immigrate and learn English to "build a better life"?

[Light a wight tonight]

They immigrated to build a better life, which they could do here as opposed to their home country. They learned English to communicate with people in the US.

Actually English is a sort of second language for many educated people in India. Because there are many languages and dialects thereof it's a way to learn one language to communicate all over the country instead of learning seventeen, or whatever. Quite a while ago there was a government attempt to make Hindi the national language but it met a lot of opposition (We are Indians, not Hindians!). They come to the US and other English-speaking countries already speaking the language. However, in the future they may have to learn Spanish.

[The Dragon King]

...and why couldn't they do it in their home country? Do you not find it strange that people must immigrate and learn English to "build a better life"?

As far as the ones that came from India, I don't know how familiar you are with Indian history but after WWII they were granted independence and implemented a socialist govt that was closely allied with the USSR, it failed horribly, it was known as the "Permit Raj", where there were mountains of paperwork to get even the smallest thing done in your business. The result was that very little business was done and people were poor. Indians left and were successful where ever else they went, the US, Africa, South America, and even Japan, just not India. Their economy has been improving drastically in the past decade as they've been moving further away from central planning and towards markets.

The other immigrants came from Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Romania, and Greece, all of whom had governments that were worse than ours. If you have a govt that is limited in scope, which upholds property rights, you'll have prosperity, which is going to attract people from less prosperous areas.

[The Bittersteel]

This thread seems to have very little to do with asoiaf.

[The Dragon King]

Dany would not be a colonialist but she is an imperialist.

[Greymoon]

As far as the ones that came from India, I don't know how familiar you are with Indian history but after WWII they were granted independence and implemented a socialist govt that was closely allied with the USSR, it failed horribly, it was known as the "Permit Raj", where there were mountains of paperwork to get even the smallest thing done in your business. The result was that very little business was done and people were poor. Indians left and were successful where ever else they went, the US, Africa, South America, and even Japan, just not India. Their economy has been improving drastically in the past decade as they've been moving further away from central planning and towards markets.

The other immigrants came from Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Romania, and Greece, all of whom had governments that were worse than ours. If you have a govt that is limited in scope, which upholds property rights, you'll have prosperity, which is going to attract people from less prosperous areas.

You said people from 3d world countries -- unspecified. and the term as far as I'm aware isn't politically correct, or at least where I live it hasn’t been for some time as it is historically associated to cold war politics; and even then it was rather misleading..

Some countries you have listed don’t even qualify imo... the point I was making is that of course colonialism has consequences that continue into the present. Such consequences can be as simple as – why English??? Why French? Why should people need to immigrate to more “stable” lands to seek better fortune?

You say, “their governments were worse than our”...do you have any idea how often our governments – and I’m purposely being imprecise here; so that we do not get into dangerous waters – have meddled with their governments? Of course not everything is our governments fault, not everything is to be blamed on imperialism and colonialism. One cannot know how the face of the world would look today without it – history is impossible to rewrite; but there have been consequences, many ugly ones, many that continue to shape nations and the relationship between nations up to today...

One example I can think off at the top of my head – Rwanda genocide. Started april 1994. Background = “ethnic” conflict. Now the very term “ethnic” is problematic – another question that would require a dissertation to be addressed properly.... it’s beside the point – what isn’t, is that much of these “ethnic identities” were shaped through colonialism; and encouraged through colonialism.

And that’s just the tip of the ice berg.

[JonisHenryTudor]

So I didnt relly like how negative my other post went. I didn’t know so many peopel hated all the good Dany is doing in slavers bane. Alot of you didn’t like the colonialist take on Dany. The route of this is probably modern’s society’s influence.

In today mega-sensitive liberal apologist world, no one admits that colonialism was agood thing. Think about the Americas. Because of colonialism America was able to propser far beyond the rest of world besides like Britain and they kept up because gues what? They were also imperalists. They managed to civilize major parts of the world, just as American was able to grow out of the stone age that the Indians had.

Its kind of sad that so many of them had to die in the name of progress, but I think you can all agree it was worth it. I mean, if America wasn’t colonized we may have never evolved like we did. Gorge RR martin is from New Jersey which means he may not have even existed if the pilgrims didn’t come. We woudn’t be discussing these books on here. We may not even have internet at all.

So i think we should definitely see Daenerys’ march towards Westeros as a good sign. While they fight and squabble over the throne and degenerate into the savages in Essos, Dany is marching there to put the world back to order. I don’t think Westeros or the whole world of ice and fire can survive if Dany doesn’t colonize it.

I think part of the problem is that you, unlike historians, don't see the difference between imperialism and colonialism. Colonialism refers more or less in the academic world to the 19th century divisions of Africa, the Middle East, India, and the Orient.

Imperialism is more or less associated with early European expansion (15th, 16th, and even the 17th century) which was driven by entirely different means than the later period.

Not trying to be rude, just pointing out that there is a real distinction between the two, and the events of America's Discovery are not quite the same as the Colonization of Africa much later. People who apologize for the colonization of America have a very superficial understanding of its history. I will say no more on that.

As far as Dany goes. I dislike her character more than most. She, however, is not a colonist. She is much more of a inspirational leader to some, who essentially amassing an army of former slaves to overtake what she perceives is the evil empire. Her world view is highly jaded, and her sense of entitlement is what drives most readers to hate her.

[The Bittersteel]

I think part of the problem is that you, unlike historians, don't see the difference between imperialism and colonialism. Colonialism refers more or less in the academic world to the 19th century divisions of Africa, the Middle East, India, and the Orient.

Imperialism is more or less associated with early European expansion (15th, 16th, and even the 17th century) which was driven by entirely different means than the later period.

Not trying to be rude, just pointing out that there is a real distinction between the two, and the events of America's Discovery are not quite the same as the Colonization of Africa much later. People who apologize for the colonization of America have a very superficial understanding of its history. I will say no more on that.

As far as Dany goes. I dislike her character more than most. She, however, is not a colonist. She is much more of a inspirational leader to some, who essentially amassing an army of former slaves to overtake what she perceives is the evil empire. Her world view is highly jaded, and her sense of entitlement is what drives most readers to hate her.

While I agree that imperialism and colonialism are clearly completely separate terms your way way off when discussing what the academic world considers them to be. Colonialism and imperialism have been occurring for thousands of years, something that is widely acknowledged. The European maritime Empire's are simply the most famous and recognized in popular history, as they were the most widespread and occurred relatively recently.

Roman Empire.

Greek City States and later Alexanders Macedonian Empire and it's successors.

Norman conquest.

All three of these examples are some of many that include elements of imperialism and/or colonialism that occurred long before the periods you are describing.

[The Dragon King]

You said people from 3d world countries -- unspecified. and the term as far as I'm aware isn't politically correct, or at least where I live it hasn’t been for some time as it is historically associated to cold war politics; and even then it was rather misleading..

Some countries you have listed don’t even qualify imo... the point I was making is that of course colonialism has consequences that continue into the present. Such consequences can be as simple as – why English??? Why French? Why should people need to immigrate to more “stable” lands to seek better fortune?

You say, “their governments were worse than our”...do you have any idea how often our governments – and I’m purposely being imprecise here; so that we do not get into dangerous waters – have meddled with their governments? Of course not everything is our governments fault, not everything is to be blamed on imperialism and colonialism. One cannot know how the face of the world would look today without it – history is impossible to rewrite; but there have been consequences, many ugly ones, many that continue to shape nations and the relationship between nations up to today...

One example I can think off at the top of my head – Rwanda genocide. Started april 1994. Background = “ethnic” conflict. Now the very term “ethnic” is problematic – another question that would require a dissertation to be addressed properly.... it’s beside the point – what isn’t, is that much of these “ethnic identities” were shaped through colonialism; and encouraged through colonialism.

And that’s just the tip of the ice berg.

I'm actually not concerned with whether something is politically incorrect, only whether or not it's true.

People have flocked to greener pastures since the very beginning, nothing new there. Some of the Greek people I know who have immigrated here have told me how Albanians go to Greece to seek a better life, Poles and Czechs go to Germany, many Germans have gone to Austria. This isn't because of colonialism, it's because of govt policy. I don't like that we meddle with other govts and I wish we'd knock it off but it's entirely within their power to fix their issues but politicians are more concerned with hooking themselves and their buddies up then fixing problems, which tends to be unpopular. Hong Kong was a British colony that has become incredibly wealthy because their policies made sense and were unobtrusive, it's extremely easy to set up a business in HK.

As far as the Rwanda genocide, I cannot believe you're trying to pin that on colonialism, people have warred with their neighbors forever. Africans have been murdering and enslaving one another for a very long time.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I'm actually not concerned with whether something is politically incorrect, only whether or not it's true.

People have flocked to greener pastures since the very beginning, nothing new there. Some of the Greek people I know who have immigrated here have told me how Albanians go to Greece to seek a better life, Poles and Czechs go to Germany, many Germans have gone to Austria. This isn't because of colonialism, it's because of govt policy. I don't like that we meddle with other govts and I wish we'd knock it off but it's entirely within their power to fix their issues but politicians are more concerned with hooking themselves and their buddies up then fixing problems, which tends to be unpopular. Hong Kong was a British colony that has become incredibly wealthy because their policies made sense and were unobtrusive, it's extremely easy to set up a business in HK.

As far as the Rwanda genocide, I cannot believe you're trying to pin that on colonialism, people have warred with their neighbors forever. Africans have been murdering and enslaving one another for a very long time.

Um the Rwanda genocide was a direct result of British/Belgium policies of pseudo-scientific categorization of local populations in the region. Most post-colonial violence is a direct consequence of colonial governments.

This, however, is a aSoIaF forum, so.....

[The Dragon King]

Um the Rwanda genocide was a direct result of British/Belgium policies of pseudo-scientific categorization of local populations in the region. Most post-colonial violence is a direct consequence of colonial governments.

This, however, is a aSoIaF forum, so.....

So the British/Belgians throw a label on someone and that forces them to pick up a machete and kill people? You seem to think very little of those Africans, as they apparently have no volition of their own, nor any internal politics or struggle for power.

[SeanF]

Why would that be a bad thing? :cool4:

It may or may not be, but I suspect most of their inhabitants would regard it as a good thing.

Really, the modern world would not have come into being, had people not been prepared to colonise territory that was held by others. That in turn begs the question whether the modern world is a good thing.

[Arnar of the Salted Sea]

While he certainly started off from a seemingly lost position The Dragon King is raising some good points. Too bad most of them are combative to a fault, if he posited it thus;

The societal vacuum left by the great plagues in North America called for a new order to arise on the continent, to achieve this, large scale colonialism and imperialism was neccessary, there were certainly brutalities but in the end it made the world as a whole more prosperous than it was before.

The discussion could be more constructive.

Defending African colonialism on the other hand is another issue entirely, whilst American colonisation is more easily defended (honestly, I doubt the Europeans of the time were aware of the diseases they were bringing to the Americas). We didn't so much colonize Africa as stripped it of as much natural resources/labour as we could. In that sense one could argue colonialism is alive and well in Africa, instead of colonies we maintain de facto oligarchies as 'client kingdoms' to corporate interests. We've just gotten more efficient at it really.