How did the three King's Guard know?

[BearQueen87]

I haven't given it much thought, but for me it seems pretty obvious that a small tower can't sustain (specially noble) people for long unless it's resupplied. I guess people there could be hunting or something?

Possibly. But I think there is a better answer. Stafall is very close to the ToJ and Dayne just so happens to be from that House. The Dayne's are Targ loyalists. I think they sent servants and food and (most importantly) a wet nurse/midwife to the Tower to help out the KG, since they were most likely not doing the cooking and cleaning.

[Ygrain]

Either you could get news or they couldn't. If there was a way to contact them Aerys would have called them back. Made no sense to only have Jaime in KL and none guarding the queen and Prince Viserys on Dragonstone.

So for Aerys not to be able to call them back, the theory has been there was no way to contact them. If they could be contacted through the Daynes, Aerys would have done that. Or are you saying the Daynes disregarded a royal order?

This is an entirely wrong assumption. The fact that Rhaegar might have established a communication channel via the Daynes absolutely doesn't mean that Aerys knew about it. If he knew of a direct way to contact them, he wouldn't have had to send Hightower to find Rhaegar, right?

I think it's plausible the KG at the ToJ simply didn't know what had happened until Ned came and told them everything.

Nope. Look at the beginning of the dialogue:

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

- they know what the reference to the Trident means, or else they would be baffled what Ned is talking about

- they know that Robert was there and won

- they know that Robert usurped the throne, i.e. they know of the Sack

Without prior knowledge of the events, they wouldn't be able to provide such responses.

So Rhaegar and Lyanna did knew what was going on during their ''honeymoon''?

You mean, the courier was bringing them each morning Westeros Daily? I think not.

I suppose that it would depend how fast the information about the shitstorm at KL spread through Westeros. Was Brandon's arrest and the subsequent trials something that was immediately heralded all over the country? Most probably not, just to those concerned. Also, were Rhaegar and Lyanna at ToJ already? Or did they travel slowly, avoiding roads and civilisation not to be detected?

The conversation in the dream (and I think it's important to remember that this is Ned's fever dream) does not clearly indicate that the KG knew in advance the info that is discussed. In each case (Trident, KL, Storm's End, Dragonstone), Ned supplies the information, to which the KG replies. They do seem pretty nonplussed by the info, which could indicate their foreknowledge or as joluoto2 says above, that they don't flinch in the face of bad news. There are some good ideas here in this thread about how they might have received news, but we don't know. The sad fact is that there are just way to many unknowns about the ToJ for us to say with certainty: all we have is this dream. We don't know for how long anybody has been there. We don't know if they've been in regular contact with anyone else (e.g. Starfall, Daynes). Heck, we don't even know that this conversation actually transpired: those might just be Ned's dream-fantasy answers to the questions that he must have had about the presence of the KG.

See above my response to joluoto.

[Crowford]

Regarding the question of why three Kingsguard were at the tower and not at Aerys' side - have you considered that at this point they didn't consider Aerys of the utmost importance anymore? Hightower was sent by Aerys to fetch Rhaegar - and yet when he found him, something happened that convinced him, and by extension Dayne and Whent, to stay there. It was not in direct violation of Aerys' orders (unless he also ordered them to come back immediately), but it would still be a violation of common sense to post three Kingsguard to guard a hostage in the middle of nowhere - after all, they are not just the King's bodyguards, they are also military commanders, especially Hightower - which would be kinda useful in a war. Of course, Rhaegar could order them, but I actually think that Hightower would have been in a position to refuse the Crown Prince's order if he felt that it jeopardized the King. He could, for example, only post Dayne and Whent there, and insist on he himself going to King's Landing.

But he didn't. Rhaegar convinced him that what was happening at the Tower of Joy was important enough. And I think, at least from this point on, if not before, they were Rhaegar's men, not Aerys'.

[Hrafntýr]

<snip>

Nope. Look at the beginning of the dialogue:

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

- they know what the reference to the Trident means, or else they would be baffled what Ned is talking about

- they know that Robert was there and won

- they know that Robert usurped the throne, i.e. they know of the Sack

Without prior knowledge of the events, they wouldn't be able to provide such responses.

<snip>

This is a very strong reading of the dialogue; I just have my doubts. After all, Stannis and Mel refer to rebels like Robb and Balon as "usurpers" even when they aren't laying claim to the Iron Throne. (ETA: and we retroproject information into our dreams all the time.)

But the real point I wanted to make was that we can't expect this to be a verbatim transcription of what actually occurred, because it is a dream, an old dream (and it's worth bearing in mind GRRM's statement here). The events of this day have hung over Ned's head for his entire life since. I think he hates the fact that the 3 KG were there, for so many reasons (a few: for what is suggests about Jon's parentage; Lyanna's/the Stark's role in starting RR; the fact that he had to kill honorable men). I think the questions he asks in the dreams are questions that have tormented him, and it's notable that the responses that he gets in his dreams are not really illuminating: they amount to an affirmation that these 3KG are honorable men, doing their duty, which is to say a projection of what Ned feels about this situation, but they aren't an answer to the deeper "Why?" of the strange story of Rhaegar and Lyanna. It's not clear to me that Ned ever had a satisfactory answer to that question.

[Ygrain]

This is a very strong reading of the dialogue; I just have my doubts. After all, Stannis and Mel refer to rebels like Robb and Balon as "usurpers" even when they aren't laying claim to the Iron Throne. (ETA: and we retroproject information into our dreams all the time.)

But the real point I wanted to make was that we can't expect this to be a verbatim transcription of what actually occurred, because it is a dream, an old dream (and it's worth bearing in mind GRRM's statement here). The events of this day have hung over Ned's head for his entire life since. I think he hates the fact that the 3 KG were there, for so many reasons (a few: for what is suggests about Jon's parentage; Lyanna's/the Stark's role in starting RR; the fact that he had to kill honorable men). I think the questions he asks in the dreams are questions that have tormented him, and it's notable that the responses that he gets in his dreams are not really illuminating: they amount to an affirmation that these 3KG are honorable men, doing their duty, which is to say a projection of what Ned feels about this situation, but they aren't an answer to the deeper "Why?" of the strange story of Rhaegar and Lyanna. It's not clear to me that Ned ever had a satisfactory answer to that question.

Robb and Balon are usurpers, taking away parts of the kingdom. Robert is an Usurper.

I perfectly agree that it is in no way a verbatim transcription; real dialogue, or the usual GRRM dialogue, doesn't flow like that. This is a little literary masterpiece, very conscise writing, and very significant. I wouldn't say, though, that it is not illuminating, only that its information is not explicit. I presume you have read MtnLion's analysis? Because that is my reading, as well.

[stateofdissipation]

Okay, let's assume the Tower of Joy is a well hidden and well kept secret that some people claim it is. Let's assume there were no ravens flying there, and messengers wouldn't know how to find the place (considering apparently even the King's Guard had troubles finding it at first). Still the three KG members watching the place seem to know alot when Ned and his crew came there. It seemed they knew Rhaegar and Aerys were dead, the siege of Storm's End lifted and Viserys evacuated to Dragonstone? How the heck did they knew all that? If the place was so friggin hard to find, how did they get all the news?

So, I think we can assume the Tower of Joy was either not at all that hard to find, or maybe they actually didn't know. They reacted professionally to what Ned told them, but it could also very well be that all this was news to them.

The KG add nothing new to the conversation...

“I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them. ---Ned did not die at the Trident and is apparently not running from anybody. KL is between the Trident and the ToJ

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.I looked for you on the Trident

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.-Ned did not die at the Trident and is apparently not running from anybody. KL is between the Trident and the ToJ

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”I wondered where you were Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, When King's Landing fell,KL is between the Trident and the ToJ

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.---ok but not saying anything new

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.--adds only that he knows Ser Willem... not surprising his brother was KG

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee. Ser Willem Darry --and ok but not saying anything new

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.The Kingsguard does not flee

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.--again not showing he is up on current events.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.--ok

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

What did they add to the conversation?

We don't surrender easily

Ser Willem is a good man and true.

Kingsguard does not flee

Do they need to know anything other than what Ned has just told them to make the responses they made?

If you say yes... I would like you to call my friend madam Cleo for the low price of 99 cents a minute... she will tell you your future.

[Lonin]

Possibly. But I think there is a better answer. Stafall is very close to the ToJ and Dayne just so happens to be from that House. The Dayne's are Targ loyalists. I think they sent servants and food and (most importantly) a wet nurse/midwife to the Tower to help out the KG, since they were most likely not doing the cooking and cleaning.

While Starfall is an attractive choice, its not really that close - there are several closer: Kingsgrave and Skyreach are very close. Blackmont, High Hermitage, even Horn Hill are closer. Most are also on the way between Starfall and ToJ.

While Rhaegars location was not common knowledge, I believe that several in the royal inner circle were aware of his location (why wouldn't his mother, the Queen know). Look at a map, if Hightower didn't know where Rhaegar was, he would never have found him.

[BearQueen87]

While Starfall is an attractive choice, its not really that close - there are several closer: Kingsgrave and Skyreach are very close. Blackmont, High Hermitage, even Horn Hill are closer. Most are also on the way between Starfall and ToJ.

While Rhaegars location was not common knowledge, I believe that several in the royal inner circle were aware of his location (why wouldn't his mother, the Queen know). Look at a map, if Hightower didn't know where Rhaegar was, he would never have found him.

It may be further away, but one of the KG members comes from that house--Arthur Dayne. He can command servants and help because of that. And how loyal are those other houses you mention? Can the KG trust them beyond a shadow of a doubt? Are they willing to risk Lyanna in that way?

[Hrafntýr]

Robb and Balon are usurpers, taking away parts of the kingdom. Robert is an Usurper.

I perfectly agree that it is in no way a verbatim transcription; real dialogue, or the usual GRRM dialogue, doesn't flow like that. This is a little literary masterpiece, very conscise writing, and very significant. I wouldn't say, though, that it is not illuminating, only that its information is not explicit. I presume you have read MtnLion's analysis? Because that is my reading, as well.

Thank you for the reference to MtnLion's analysis, which I hadn't read before; it's quite good!

And I agree that the dream is a literary masterpiece, and quite illuminating for us as readers. I was trying to enter into the dream logic to consider what the function of the dream, including its dialogue, might be for Ned. If the primary purpose of dreams is wish fulfillment, does Ned compulsively repeat this dream in an (unsuccessful) attempt to get different answers to his "offers" (you could bend the knee, to go to serve Viserys)? Is it, as I think I was initially thinking, an expression of his basic wish that the KG had not been there at all, that they had instead been at the Trident, at KL, at SE, at Dragonstone, anywhere except at the ToJ, not only so that he wouldn't have to kill them, but also so that Lyanna would not have died giving birth to the Targaryen heir? He's basically saying, "Why are you here? You should be anywhere but here!" And their refusal to give the "real" answer in an explicit fashion (i.e. we're protecting the infant king) permits Ned to not have to confront that in his dream, for all that it's important that it's there as the underlying subtext of the KG's presence (because his subconscious also needs for it to be true that R+L=J, for all that it doesn't want to acknowledge Jon as Targaryen heir).

Sorry, this is all off topic, really! I do think that the KG did, in fact, know things, and that ties with Starfall is the likeliest conduit of information.

[UnmaskedLurker]

While Starfall is an attractive choice, its not really that close - there are several closer: Kingsgrave and Skyreach are very close. Blackmont, High Hermitage, even Horn Hill are closer. Most are also on the way between Starfall and ToJ.

While Rhaegars location was not common knowledge, I believe that several in the royal inner circle were aware of his location (why wouldn't his mother, the Queen know). Look at a map, if Hightower didn't know where Rhaegar was, he would never have found him.

I agree with BearQueen87 that Starfall seems an attractive candidate because of the connection with the Dayne family, but I am not sure it matters where the location of the supplies might be. The distance from Starfall actually makes sense, however, because this distance would explain why they get information but not regularly, i.e., why they likely find out about Rhaegar's death at the same time as the death of Aerys and Aegon. The reason not to use a closer location for supplies and information would be the need for secrecy.

The ToJ is an abandoned tower, so no one has any reason to go there. The location of the tower technically might not be secret, but no one has any reason to think about it, as no one has been stationed there in a long time.

There is no evidence that people in the inner royal circle knew of Rhaegar's location. Rhaegar needed to keep the location secret from Aerys, which makes it unlikely Rhaegar would have told anyone in the inner circle--even his mother (as he cannot risk a slip). Hightower did not know where Rhaegar was when he started his journey. Hightower finds ToJ somehow--or perhaps a meeting is arranged by an intermediary (Ashara Dayne perhaps) and only after Rhaegar is comfortable that Hightower will stay at ToJ does Rhaegar reveal the location--we cannot know at this point the exact circumstances under which Hightower goes to ToJ. But many have speculated--and I agree--that the reason Hightower is left at ToJ is so that Aerys cannot order Hightower to reveal the location.

As to the dream, as BQ loves to point out (and thanks to her for doing so as it is an important and often overlooked fact), the dream is an old dream--and thus has been had by Ned many times before without the influence of poppies. The point of the dialogue is not that it is a literal remembrance of the conversation. The point is that everything said MUST be consistent with Ned's understanding of the facts. So Ned would not remember the KG saying things that only make sense if the KG already knew about the events unless Ned believes, based on what actually happened that day, that the KG knew about the events already. This dialogue in some respects is better than the "actual" dialogue spoken on that day because this dialogue summarizes Ned's understanding of what happened on that day. And Ned's understanding is that the 3 KG remained loyal to the Targ dynasty (and Aerys--no flipping to Rhaegar as king) and were carrying out their vows by guarding ToJ. Given the way Ned remembers them emphasizing their vows and being dismissive of going to Viserys strongly suggests that Ned believes that the 3 KG believed that they were guarding the king--Jon.

[Lonin]

It may be further away, but one of the KG members comes from that house--Arthur Dayne. He can command servants and help because of that. And how loyal are those other houses you mention? Can the KG trust them beyond a shadow of a doubt? Are they willing to risk Lyanna in that way?

I only mentioned places that remained loyal to the Targaryens. Rhaegar was there when the ToJ was selected. Why wouldn't Rhaeger have used Skyreach and Kingsgrave as a re-supply/communication centers? He is the Crown Prince, both are loyal to him. If the Dayne connection is so important, why not a place closer to Starfall.

[BearQueen87]

I only mentioned places that remained loyal to the Targaryens. Rhaegar was there when the ToJ was selected. Why wouldn't Rhaeger have used Skyreach and Kingsgrave as a re-supply/communication centers? He is the Crown Prince, both are loyal to him. If the Dayne connection is so important, why not a place closer to Starfall.

Rhaegar may have. But the fact that Ned went to Starfall after the ToJ, and not to one of these places, suggests to me that Starfall was more loyal than the others. If Wylla was already at the ToJ it makes sense to go to Starfall instead of another place (and if Wylla was at the ToJ then the KG were obviously already bringing up at least people from Starfall)

[Lonin]

Rhaegar may have. But the fact that Ned went to Starfall after the ToJ, and not to one of these places, suggests to me that Starfall was more loyal than the others. If Wylla was already at the ToJ it makes sense to go to Starfall instead of another place (and if Wylla was at the ToJ then the KG were obviously already bringing up at least people from Starfall)

Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn not because Starfall was more loyal...

[BearQueen87]

Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn not because Starfall was more loyal...

And why was he returning Dawn? Why does he respect the Dayne's so much? He could have left the sword there. He could have take it for himself. But he feels duty bound to take it to Starfall. Why? Maybe because Dayne and his family were helping Lyanna in that Tower. And if Wylla was already there nursing Jon, then he'd see her back to Starfall as well.