How did the three King's Guard know?

[joluoto2]

Okay, let's assume the Tower of Joy is a well hidden and well kept secret that some people claim it is. Let's assume there were no ravens flying there, and messengers wouldn't know how to find the place (considering apparently even the King's Guard had troubles finding it at first). Still the three KG members watching the place seem to know alot when Ned and his crew came there. It seemed they knew Rhaegar and Aerys were dead, the siege of Storm's End lifted and Viserys evacuated to Dragonstone? How the heck did they knew all that? If the place was so friggin hard to find, how did they get all the news?

So, I think we can assume the Tower of Joy was either not at all that hard to find, or maybe they actually didn't know. They reacted professionally to what Ned told them, but it could also very well be that all this was news to them.

[Fanless Mace]

Google maps.

[Ygrain]

ToJ had to be supplied from somewhere. Given Arthur Dayne's presence and the Daynes' further involvement, Starfall seems a likely location. Starfall would have received ravenmail news just like all major settlements, and sent a reliable messenger to ToJ.

[joluoto2]

Either you could get news or they couldn't. If there was a way to contact them Aerys would have called them back. Made no sense to only have Jaime in KL and none guarding the queen and Prince Viserys on Dragonstone.

So for Aerys not to be able to call them back, the theory has been there was no way to contact them. If they could be contacted through the Daynes, Aerys would have done that. Or are you saying the Daynes disregarded a royal order?

I think it's plausible the KG at the ToJ simply didn't know what had happened until Ned came and told them everything.

[new djinn]

ToJ had to be supplied from somewhere. Given Arthur Dayne's presence and the Daynes' further involvement, Starfall seems a likely location. Starfall would have received ravenmail news just like all major settlements, and sent a reliable messenger to ToJ.

So Rhaegar and Lyanna did knew what was going on during their ''honeymoon''?

[Ser Leftwich]

Another option: Dornish troops returning after the Battle of the Trident. Gossip travels almost as fast as ravens.

[joluoto2]

So Rhaegar and Lyanna did knew what was going on during their ''honeymoon''?

This too, if news could get to the ToJ, there is no way Rhaegar didn't know what was going on in the Realm.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think the same person who told Ned where to find his sister told the Kingsguard what had happened and that Ned was coming. If you look at the dialogue, not only do the men know what has happened, but neither party seems surprised to see the other.

So Rhaegar and Lyanna did knew what was going on during their ''honeymoon''?

Not necessarily, not until Hightower showed up. I think it makes the most sense for the men to learn about Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon at the same time. Reason being, I think that if they heard about Rhaegar dying first, they'd know that Aerys and Aegon were now just left with Jaime and they'd probably send at least one of their number back to the capital.

[joluoto2]

I think the same person who told Ned where to find his sister told the Kingsguard what had happened and that Ned was coming. If you look at the dialogue, not only do the men know what has happened, but neither party seems surprised to see the other.

Not necessarily, not until Hightower showed up. I think it makes the most sense for the men to learn about Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon at the same time. Reason being, I think that if they heard about Rhaegar dying first, they'd know that Aerys and Aegon were now just left with Jaime and they'd probably send at least one of their number back to the capital.

It could also just be that they were professionals, and don't flinch to bad news, especially if the news comes from an enemy of the crown (Ned).

Well, there's much non-sensical stuff involved. Why is Lord Commander Hightower guarding the ToJ? Shouldn't he be in the capital? Why is none of the KG with the Queen and Viserys on Dragonstone. We know that the KG is supposed to guard the entire Royal Family.

[BearQueen87]

Well, there's much non-sensical stuff involved. Why is Lord Commander Hightower guarding the ToJ? Shouldn't he be in the capital? Why is none of the KG with the Queen and Viserys on Dragonstone. We know that the KG is supposed to guard the entire Royal Family.

There is nothing that states that the LC of the KG must be in the capital. Aerys was guarded by 1 KG; the duty of the KG (as a collective whole) is being fulfilled if one KG is with the king. By the time Viserys and the Queen flee, the KG are radically short on numbers (Jamie in Captial and 3 on the Trident, 2 of whom die, 3 at the ToJ). The fact that the 3 at the ToJ do NOT flee to Viserys is telling.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well, there's much non-sensical stuff involved. Why is Lord Commander Hightower guarding the ToJ? Shouldn't he be in the capital? Why is none of the KG with the Queen and Viserys on Dragonstone. We know that the KG is supposed to guard the entire Royal Family.

1. This is how I'm guessing it played out. Aerys sends Hightower to make sure Rhaegar comes back to lead the army. Hightower manages to find Rhaegar, Dayne and Whent. Rhaegar says, "OK, I'll go lead the army. But you stay here with them." Hightower can accept this order from Rhaegar because it wouldn't contradict the order that Aerys gave him. Rhaegar is going back to help lead the army.

2. For the vast majority of the war, at least four Kingsguard -- Lewyn, Jaime, Darry and Selmy -- were at Aerys's immediate disposal. And Hightower would have been too, before he went to retrieve Rhaegar. By the time the Kingsguard would have learned otherwise, it'd be too late to do anything, because Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon would have already been dead. There was no reason to worry about the Kingsguard being stretched too thin, because four or five of the seven would have still been with Aerys. Rhaenyra had two Kingsguard with her on Dragonstone, so Dayne and Whent being with Rhaegar is hardly unusual.

3. Why are they not now with Rhaella and Viserys? Perhaps because Jon, not Viserys, is now the king, and protecting the king is their primary directive. Especially when the king is a newborn baby.

[BearQueen87]

1. This is how I'm guessing it played out. Aerys sends Hightower to make sure Rhaegar comes back to lead the army. Hightower manages to find Rhaegar, Dayne and Whent. Rhaegar says, "OK, I'll go lead the army. But you stay here with them." Hightower can accept this order from Rhaegar because it wouldn't contradict the order that Aerys gave him. Rhaegar is going back to help lead the army.

2. For the vast majority of the war, at least four Kingsguard -- Lewyn, Jaime, Darry and Selmy -- were at Aerys's immediate disposal. And Hightower would have been too, before he went to retrieve Rhaegar. By the time the Kingsguard would have learned otherwise, it'd be too late to do anything, because Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon would have already been dead. There was no reason to worry about the Kingsguard being stretched too thin, because four or five of the seven would have still been with Aerys. Rhaenyra had two Kingsguard with her on Dragonstone, so Dayne and Whent being with Rhaegar is hardly unusual.

3. Why are they not now with Rhaella and Viserys? Perhaps because Jon, not Viserys, is now the king, and protecting the king is their primary directive. Especially when the king is a newborn baby.

To go along with what Apple Martini is saying, this is a really helpful numbers chart Ygrain came up with at v.88 of R + L = J

Let's take a little look at numbers:

before the Battle of the Bells:

general number of KG: 7

Rhaegar and Lyanna: 2

Aerys: 5

the first duty is fulfilled

before Rhaegar's return to KL:

general number of KG: 7

Rhaegar and Lyanna: 3

Aerys: 4

the first duty is fulfilled

before the Trident:

general number of KG: 7

Lyanna: 3

Rhaegar: 3

Aerys: 1

the first duty is fulfilled

after the Trident:

general number of KG: 4

Lyanna: 3

Aerys: 1

the first duty is fulfilled

after the Sack:

general number of KG: 3

Lyanna: 3

Viserys 0

the first duty is NOT fulfilled /beep beep KG alert/

[Trigger Warning]

Maybe it was common knowledge at court.

Does the book ever say it was a secret?

[Hrafntýr]

The conversation in the dream (and I think it's important to remember that this is Ned's fever dream) does not clearly indicate that the KG knew in advance the info that is discussed. In each case (Trident, KL, Storm's End, Dragonstone), Ned supplies the information, to which the KG replies. They do seem pretty nonplussed by the info, which could indicate their foreknowledge or as joluoto2 says above, that they don't flinch in the face of bad news. There are some good ideas here in this thread about how they might have received news, but we don't know. The sad fact is that there are just way to many unknowns about the ToJ for us to say with certainty: all we have is this dream. We don't know for how long anybody has been there. We don't know if they've been in regular contact with anyone else (e.g. Starfall, Daynes). Heck, we don't even know that this conversation actually transpired: those might just be Ned's dream-fantasy answers to the questions that he must have had about the presence of the KG.

[franko99]

I think the "secret" was that Lyanna and Rhaegar were hiding there, not the tower itself, it should have some sort of contact with the outside world, people from the area should know how to get there and news can get to it just like any other keep in the kingdoms :dunno:

[stateofdissipation]

If we cover the possibilities of information arriving to the ToJ "How it got there" ceases to matter.

The flow of information (3 major events) to the ToJ and the birth of Jon contain

1. Trident--Rhaella and Viserys evacuated

2. Sack of Kings Landing

3. Surrender of Tyrells and Redwynes

The news of the Trident reaches ToJ

Jon may or may not have been born at this time without impacting decisions. (Jon's earliest birth Rhaegar's death)

4 KG available to Aerys and Aegon became 1. KL soon to be attacked.

--Problematic because of later claims of priority to protect the king and line of succession

The news of the Trident--Viserys flight and the Sack reach the ToJ together.

Jon must be born before or problematic Viserys unprotected and no heir present. (Jon's earliest birth 11 days before sack)

--Problematic because Tyrells and Redwynes left to seige SE

The king would need his bannermen if he were to claim his throne

Secrecy means that the "king" has lost his kingdom.

The king would need to go into exile.

--Problematic if Jon born legitimate, Lyanna is queen regent (protect, OBEY, keep)

The news of the Trident and the Sack reach the ToJ together. (minus Viserys flight)

Jon must not be born-- a fetus does not call his/her banners.

With news of the destruction of the Targaryens any child would be heir.

--Problematic if the child is legitimate, Lyanna is queen regent (protect, OBEY, keep)

The news of the Trident--Viserys flight, sack, and surrender of at SE arrive together.

Jon must be born before or problematic Viserys unprotected and no heir present..

--Problematic because the Starks, Tyrells, and Redwynes now stand between KG and Viserys

--Problematic if Jon born legitimate, Lyanna is queen regent (protect, OBEY, keep)

The news of the Trident, sack, and surrender of at SE arrive together. (minus Viserys flight)

Jon need not be born-- .

With news of the destruction of the Targaryens any child would be heir.

--Problematic if the child is legitimate, Lyanna is queen regent (protect, OBEY, keep)

The news of the Trident--Viserys flight, sack, and surrender of at SE arrive with Ned.

Jon need not be born.--Problematic if Jon born, Lyanna is queen regent (protect, OBEY, keep

A male child would be the heir over Viserys.

The KG are facing a Targaryen enemy with no regent (only a vow to protect, obey and keep.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The conversation in the dream (and I think it's important to remember that this is Ned's fever dream) does not clearly indicate that the KG knew in advance the info that is discussed.

Agree to disagree, I guess. But it's pretty clear, to me, that the conversation that occurs does not speak to 1. the Kingsguard learning anything they don't already know and 2. the Kingsguard or Ned being surprised to see each other at that particular time.

[BearQueen87]

The conversation in the dream (and I think it's important to remember that this is Ned's fever dream) does not clearly indicate that the KG knew in advance the info that is discussed.

It is a fever dream, but it's important to also remember that it's an old dream. It's one he's had before, and they were in the dream as they had been in life. This is not a dream that he is having ONLY because of the pain and milk of the poppy.

[Ser Leftwich]

Lyanna is queen regent (protect, OBEY, keep)

Just because Lyanna is the mother of Jon, she is not necessarily the regent. There are several unknown including: 1) Do the KG accept her as the regent? 2) Is she so ill/delirious that she is not able to make sensible decisions?

Look at Criston Cole and Jaime. Paraphrasing, 'if the king ask you to get his horse, do it. If he asks you to kill his horse come to me.' That the KG, which includes the LC, would absolutely do whatever Lyanna told them to is not a reasonable assumption.

[Ser Greg of House House]

I haven't given it much thought, but for me it seems pretty obvious that a small tower can't sustain (specially noble) people for long unless it's resupplied. I guess people there could be hunting or something?