Hardhome theories

[Bryanfury]

I dont think the theory of a failed Valyrian invasion makes sense, I remember GRRM said somewhere that there has never been an incident of a warg ever warging a dragon. And an important event like that would obviously be recorded in history.

I'll wait for a link to this. And as to recorded events, well, 1) Wildlings don't record things, they pass on history orally and 2) Hardholmes fall is passed on orally to the extent that people know about what happened, i.e, very little, and seen from afar. Can't pass on that people were warging if no-one survives to pass on that info.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I dont think the theory of a failed Valyrian invasion makes sense, I remember GRRM said somewhere that there has never been an incident of a warg ever warging a dragon. And an important event like that would obviously be recorded in history.

The most logical reason why the Valyrians didn't go west is because warfare across the sea is not an easy thing to do.And they expanded east before west.

Who would be recording it, if everyone that was living there was wiped out? The society that was there wouldn't have had maesters or written language. And I doubt the Valyrians would be advertising that their dragons had a weakness.

If you could provide the exact GRRM quote, that'd be helpful too.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I read somewhere in here that the wall might have been put up by the others to keep men out. in that case could it have been the others that trashed Hardhome? it made sense to me as its above the wall and there aint much else up there

Why would the Others destroy it with fire?

[GRRMian]

Still doesn't explain why Valyria, the most badass 'nation' on Planetos, with toeholds everywhere (now all the Free Cities) and an outpost mere days away......never messed with Westeros until the Conquest.

[Nozlym]

to me if valyria decided to invade somewhere it would be recorded, people would have seen, stories would be told.

now lets say if some dragon lords were going on a family vacation and wanted to go somewhere cold, then i might be able to see that theory

[Squab]

Why would the Others destroy it with fire?

maybe wildlings did that to stop wights re-animating.

May also be Scagos - those guys are meant to be weird too.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

to me if valyria decided to invade somewhere it would be recorded, people would have seen, stories would be told.

now lets say some if some dragon lords were going on a family vacation and wanted to go somewhere cold, then i might be able to see that theory

1. Who's going to record it if the society in which it occurred has no written language?

2. Who's going to tell the story if all the witnesses are dead?

maybe wildlings did that to stop wights re-animating.

May also be Scagos - those guys are meant to be weird too.

... Underwhelmed. I think we'll find out that the Skagosi have been vastly overblown with regards to their alleged terrible-ness. Either way, I don't see anything connecting them to Hardhome.

[Bryanfury]

maybe wildlings did that to stop wights re-animating.

May also be Scagos - those guys are meant to be weird too.

Except that the Wildling stories of Hardholme are limited to the same story everyone hears - no-one survived, no-one saw it happen, no-one knows what happened except destruction.

[Arya Stark Rules]

I'll wait for a link to this. And as to recorded events, well, 1) Wildlings don't record things, they pass on history orally and 2) Hardholmes fall is passed on orally to the extent that people know about what happened, i.e, very little, and seen from afar. Can't pass on that people were warging if no-one survives to pass on that info.

Valyria brought 200 or so dragons to the Rhoyne when fighting them I'm pretty sure if they ever came to westeros they would come with that number or even more. An event of soo many dragons will never get lost in history even if, not recorded.

I don't think the Valyrians ever stepped foot west, It would be a poor military strategy to attempt conquering an overseas land, whiles holding a whole continent at the same time. (Almost half of Essos)

Who would be recording it, if everyone that was living there was wiped out? The society that was there wouldn't have had maesters or written language. And I doubt the Valyrians would be advertising that their dragons had a weakness.

If you could provide the exact GRRM quote, that'd be helpful too.

Quote:

Q: What can you tell us about a warg dragon rider?

A: There is no history/precedent for someone warging a dragon.

Even if everyone was wiped out I don't think the site of soo many dragons would go unoticed or the site of soo many people dying, somebody well definetly see it.

Even if not an accurate history, it would be legend or myth

[Nozlym]

1. Who's going to record it if the society in which it occurred has no written language?

2. Who's going to tell the story if all the witnesses are dead?

... Underwhelmed.

so ur saying that an invasion size group of valyrians is going to travel all the way north of the wall from valyria without anyone noticing????????

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Quote:

Even if everyone was wiped out I don't think the site of soo many dragons would go unoticed or the site of soo many people dying, somebody well definetly see it.

Even if not an accurate history, it would be legend or myth

If a tree falls in the forest and no one's around, does it make a sound? If someone wargs a dragon and it isn't recorded or known, does it count as history? A precedent needs to be known in order to be a precedent.

[Squab]

Except that the Wildling stories of Hardholme are limited to the same story everyone hears - no-one survived, no-one saw it happen, no-one knows what happened except destruction.

i dont mean the ones that werent there. as they are being attached they set fire to everything. whole town burns, everyone dies. nobody knows anything other than rumour and guesses, just like us

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

so ur saying that an invasion size group of valyrians is going to travel all the way north of the wall from valyria without anyone noticing????????

I think you don't have nearly enough question marks tacked onto the end of that.

[Ser Pigeon Pie]

The legend indicates that it wasn't until Hardhome started to become an actual town that things went bad. Perhaps the Children of the Forest didn't want Hardhome being the start of a new human civilization and shut it down. The Thenns have their own community but I don't recall trade between foreigners being mentioned. The Children might tolerate them because there's no risk of them expanding beyond their little community or introducing foreigners.

Or maybe the people of Hardhome began practicing new religions and some sort of ceremony went wrong.

The sky raining ashes is something that we don't hear about in other tales of battles involving dragons like on the Field of Fire or anywhere else during Aegon's invasion. A Valyrian invasion consisting of several dragons and riders doesn't seem like something that would go unnoticed especially if the Night's Watch could see the flames from afar. Traders talk about the devastation of Hardhome. Wouldn't they also mention a Valyrian fleet arriving and departing defeated? Or the remnants of a foreign fleet?

ETA: Hardhome doesn't even seem like a smart place to begin an invasion. The Wall blocks the way south. I could see Winterfell maybe but beyond the Wall? There's nothing there.

I'd totally go with this over a failed Valaryian invasion. There's just not enough need for them to want to choose a place like Hardhome to set up and it's just more logical for the children to have something against a civilisation being built on their land and cutting into their forests.

I'm of the opinion that it was a small group from Ib which first settled in Hardhome. Geographically it would fit as being a new potential settlement and a chance to create a larger domain. In addition they would have had large whale oil deposits which would have been a perfect target for the children to stage an annhiliation of the Ibbenese (and because as HBO showed, the children can apparently shoot fire out of their hands..)

[Nozlym]

I think you don't have nearly enough question marks tacked onto the end of that.

u might be right, shall i edit it?

[Arya Stark Rules]

If a tree falls in the forest and no one's around, does it make a sound? If someone wargs a dragon and it isn't recorded or known, does it count as history?

The point is that, the site of an attempted conquest, with 200 or so dragons and probably many ships and an army is impossible to go unnoticed, its not like one person came there alone and ran away.

And Valyrian's style of military seemed to be based on using dragons as a last resort based on their battles with Ghis, so there would be battles before they bring dragons. It's not like a silent child walking through a forest.

[GRRMian]

CotF......protectors of Westeros!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The point is that, the site of an attempted conquest, with 200 or so dragons and probably many ships and an army is impossible to go unnoticed, its not like one person came there alone and ran away.

And Valyrian's style of military seemed to be based on using dragons as a last resort based on their battles with Ghis, so there would be battles before they bring dragons. It's not like a silent child walking through a forest.

Where are you getting that number, exactly?

I think we're in "agree to disagree" territory here. I think dead people don't talk, and Valyrians wouldn't be broadcasting what had happened if it exposed a weakness. You guys keep arguing that it's too isolated to be a worthwhile landing point, while also saying that if it had happened there, there'd be a better record of it. So which is it? If it's close enough to civilization to be recorded, then obviously it wouldn't have been too middle-of-nowhere to land. And if it is that isolated (which again, I argue was the point; landing someplace isolated means less resistance at the beginning), how the hell would it have been recorded?

I'm also curious as to why the description of the skies over Hardhome sounds a lot like the description of the sky during Vhagar and Caraxes' fight, just on a larger scale. It was obviously something involving a shit ton of fire that did it. So what, exactly, could have done it?

[Nozlym]

well my 2 cents on a possible outcome is that there might have already been a dragon up north.

-it might have woken up from a slumber (smaug) and started to attack, while people/person tried to kill it or control it with the first men dragon horn that we see in adwd

-or someone found the first man dragon horn and used it to summon/wake a dragon, but lost control of it??

either way i believe it has something to do with the dragon horn that was found north of the wall

[Arya Stark Rules]

Where are you getting that number, exactly?

I think we're in "agree to disagree" territory here. I think dead people don't talk, and Valyrians wouldn't be broadcasting what had happened if it exposed a weakness. You guys keep arguing that it's too isolated to be a worthwhile landing point, while also saying that if it had happened there, there'd be a better record of it. So which is it? If it's close enough to civilization to be recorded, then obviously it wouldn't have been too middle-of-nowhere to land. And if it is that isolated (which again, I argue was the point; landing someplace isolated means less resistance at the beginning), how the hell would it have been recorded?

I'm also curious as to why the description of the skies over Hardhome sounds a lot like the description of the sky during Vhagar and Caraxes' fight, just on a larger scale. It was obviously something involving a shit ton of fire that did it. So what, exactly, could have done it?

From the WOIAF excerpt, Valyria fought with the Rhoynar's and brought 200 dragons.

The problem here is that Valyria was the greatest empire in the known world at that point. Any of their moves are going to be highly watched both for tales and as politacal and military defense for other nations, meaning if Valyria is attempting an overseas conquest it's going to be highly publicized. Even if has disappeared completely in Hardome, the story of Valyria's first conquest overseas isn't going to disappear even in Essos, people will definetly take note of that.

The author said there is no precedent so I don't think there is any stock in this theory, so I guess agree to disagree as you said