True Revenge

[Mladen]

If I may be so bold, "Lady's Iron Jawed Ghost" would fit you ever so perfectly ;)

Too long... :)

My mistake. I always thought that BR was still a God of Gods when this happened. And Aemon was the one to choose not to be a problem; What would Aegon VI do?

Not necessarily he would be a problem. Perhaps they would make him belief about necessity of NW vows... All and all, it is not out of reach of possibility to do it.

Here, Kevan shows us why he was Tywin's counselor. The man is clever, and sees through every play from Mace. I stay firm when I say that Martell and Tyrell are dragons to the bone, Elia or no. The Martells only truly became a part of the Seven Kingdoms when Daenerys I Targaryen married a prince of Dorne. The guys have some history with dragons. Tyrells are only liege lords because of Aegon I Targaryen and the fools of the Gardeners. They are dragons.

Actually, no. What Mace was doing was rather smart. He spend entire rebellion in his war tent outside Storm's End starving Tywin. His support was there, but we can say that Kevan's assessment is rather wrong. Robb's bannermen followed him to bitter end. Mace was just cool when Ned came with his host.

As for Martell, they never became part of Seven Kingdoms. Never truly. Officially, yes, but they were always separated from the rest. Much like North.

Lord Tyrell has 80.000 swords with him in ACOK/ASOS, Martell has 50.000 inflated spears, and Lannister also commands an army of around 100.000 if you squeeze the Westerlands to the bloody bone. 230.000 fighters. Against the Vale's apparent 40.000, the Riverlands' apparent 30.000 at most, the North's 40-50.000 if you take the raw boys and the old done men, and the Stormlands' 50-60.000? I think it's something like that, right?

Anyway, 200-230.000 vs 120-140.000. The numbers aren't exact, I know, but they spin around that axis. This is a good war, right?

Numbers are completely off...

Tyrells do have 80 - 100 000 men, Lannisters and Starks are even, around 50-60 000 men, Vale has around 40 000, Riverlands 30 000, Dorne and Stormlands 20-25 000

Remember that Doran said that Dorne is the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms. Stannis said about Stormlands gathering some 20 000 men, Westerlands are simply too small for 100 000 men.

Most would actually say that Theon being tortured by Ramsay and Cerseis walk of shame was revenge for the terrible things their characters had done

I am not the most people :)

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Numbers are completely off...

Tyrells do have 80 - 100 000 men, Lannisters and Starks are even, around 50-60 000 men, Vale has around 40 000, Riverlands 30 000, Dorne and Stormlands 20-25 000

Remember that Doran said that Dorne is the least populated of the Seven Kingdoms. Stannis said about Stormlands gathering some 20 000 men, Westerlands are simply too small for 100 000 men.

But wait!

Tywin and Jaime went out of the Westerlands in AGoT with 40.000 men, then divided their army in two. Jaime was f*cked beneath he walls of Riverrun and his host scattered. Tywin still has ~20.000 men. Then he calls on Mr. Lannister whose name I forgot, and he arranges 20.000 extra men. Robb f*cks those in Oxcross. Then Jaime thinks, in AFFC, that they could raise another 20k host if needed... And the dead Lannister men that were f*cked beneath the walls of Dragonstone. I dunno, sounds like the Lannisters could rally a lot of folks. The other houses I wasn't sure of, and I'm sorry I overrated them. But I think you underrated the Stormlands and Dorne too - I think that what Stannis said is that the Stormlands had raised 20k men, which doesn't mean they couldn't raise more (see Robb's campaign, the Mountain Clans). I counted Dorne for 30-35k spears, and the Stormlands may raise the same...

I'm not a fan of the tactic analysis in ASOIAF; I'm in more for the deeper story the series has, rather than the wars. And that lack of interest on the especifics could lead to mistakes. But either way, with your numbers or mine, it's still a good war, right?

[Mladen]

But wait!

Tywin and Jaime went out of the Westerlands in AGoT with 40.000 men, then divided their army in two. Jaime was f*cked beneath he walls of Riverrun and his host scattered. Tywin still has ~20.000 men. Then he calls on Mr. Lannister whose name I forgot, and he arranges 20.000 extra men. Robb f*cks those in Oxcross. Then Jaime thinks, in AFFC, that they could raise another 20k host if needed... And the dead Lannister men that were f*cked beneath the walls of Dragonstone. I dunno, sounds like the Lannisters could rally a lot of folks. The other houses I wasn't sure of, and I'm sorry I overrated them. But I think you underrated the Stormlands and Dorne too - I think that what Stannis said is that the Stormlands had raised 20k men, which doesn't mean they couldn't raise more (see Robb's campaign, the Mountain Clans). I counted Dorne for 30-35k spears, and the Stormlands may raise the same...

I'm not a fan of the tactic analysis in ASOIAF; I'm in more for the deeper story the series has, rather than the wars. And that lack of interest on the especifics could lead to mistakes. But either way, with your numbers or mine, it's still a good war, right?

Actually, no. Tywin also can buy merceneries and thus raise that number. Westerlands are rather small, plus Steffon raised army mostly from farmers. As for Stormlands, we have seen that it is truly the number because Stannis can't raise more men shown by his number at Wall. Dorne is the weakest as Doran said in AFFC, and Quentyn exaggerated the number. So, it's around 20-30 000.

I also don't pay attention to numbers except when they matter. But, as we have seen entire Westeros in war, I doubt that would be in any way more epic than RR.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

Actually, no. Tywin also can buy merceneries and thus raise that number. Westerlands are rather small, plus Steffon raised army mostly from farmers. As for Stormlands, we have seen that it is truly the number because Stannis can't raise more men shown by his number at Wall. Dorne is the weakest as Doran said in AFFC, and Quentyn exaggerated the number. So, it's around 20-30 000.

IMO Stannis couldn't raise a single extra man because A. He exploded his fleet in the Blackwater and B. The Stormlords are little lion bithces. Team Mannis!

Anyway, we digress. From Rhaenys and Aegon to how many men Stannis can raise, we went far, huh? Any last thoughts?

To me, the discussion about the babes is if revenge should be requested because of the way they were butchered. The reasons they were killed are explicit; they are heirs, and in front of Robert in the succession line.

Vengeance for Rhaenys' 50 stabs! Vengeance for the fake baby Varys used to fake Prince Aegon and his smashed head! Vengeance for Elia Martell's rape and murder!

[Mladen]

To me, the discussion about the babes is if revenge should be requested because of the way they were butchered. The reasons they were killed are explicit; they are heirs, and in front of Robert in the succession line.

With all his flaws, Robert was far better KIng than Aerys and people generally liked him. He was friendly, and as we have seen, after RR, there was no organized resistance to his reign. Pretty much everybody except Martells, whose reasons were rather personal, were fine with him ruling. Not to mention that he created block of 5 Houses after RR that everyone would have to deal with in any Rebellion that may come up, as Balon Greyjoy felt on his skin.

I am not saying that leaving Aegon alive wouldn't be without some risk, but it is rather wrong to believe above reasonable doubt that it couldn't have been done. We have heard of those cases, plus there were ways to annul that danger.

Vengeance for Rhaenys' 50 stabs! Vengeance for the fake baby Varys used to fake Prince Aegon and his smashed head! Vengeance for Elia Martell's rape and murder!

First, I don't believe there was a swap because the story is full with holes size of Pacific and second, in hypothetical scenario that it did happen, who would care for Pisswater Prince?

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

First, I don't believe there was a swap because the story is full with holes size of Pacific and second, in hypothetical scenario that it did happen, who would care for Pisswater Prince?

Peasants, amiright?

I don't like the idea of someone exploding a baby's head against a wall and then raping his "mother". So I think that, Pisswater Prince or no, he deserves True Revenge.

[Mladen]

Peasants, amiright?

I don't like the idea of someone exploding a baby's head against a wall and then raping his "mother". So I think that, Pisswater Prince or no, he deserves True Revenge.

Well, as I said, I don't think that Mountain killed anyone but Aegon. As to what peasants will do, I suppose we will see true revenge for quite the number of the children, women and generally people.

[lyannaisalive]

How can you even say Robert didn't need it? It was good for Tywin, yes, but Robert needed most of them dead and the image that "the Targaryens have been crushed". They are not crushed while 4+ of them are still alive, 2 of them boys who will grow up. And no they won't accept Robert and will rebel.

Ned hated the act, and yes he didn't need it, for him Aerys might have been a monster, but the rest had no fault. Yet Ned (my favorite male character) was a fool in this respect. Like young Sansa, he believed in fairytales (chivalry, honor) when the world around them is obviously not like that. Any person playing "the game of thrones" should have known that this could happen.

1. Had the children lived it is possible to see them putting Aegon on throne with Jon Arryn as his regent/lord protector.

2. If Robert still sat on the throne he could keep Rhaenys and marry her to one of his children and send Aegon with Ned to be raised in the north. Send Aegon to the wall and his sister to the silent sisters. Send Elia home to Dorne or allow her to stay with her daughter.

3. Had he arrived first to KL he would not have allowed those children to be murdered. There is a difference in being naive like Sansa and being honorable like Ned. Ned knew what the world was like, he just fought a war, but he would not have murdered those children or allowed it. And and Elia would not have been RAPED and MURDERED.

Those children being killed were not the only way to ensure Roberts throne.